General 'Haki' Discussion

[Zp1]

Actually, when it comes to any Devil Fruit that has the power of creating an element/substance, the strength of the user does directly effect how much they can output using the fruit.

Just compare the general area of effect from weaker logia users to stronger logias users

Loguetown Smoker (tiny area of effect) (Croc (small area of effect) < Enel (medium area of effect) < Ace/Blackbeard (large area of effect) < Admirals (ridiculous massive area of effect ie: freezing seas, massive light spam, meteor spam)


A perfect example of this will be the next time we see Smoker in a non-storyline jobbing fight. His overall output is probably on par with Ace's at this point. I'd expect to see him covering a massive area in smoke on a scale that he was never capable of before.

[Drazgoon]

Crocodile created sandstorms that ravaged everything in their paths, just sayin'

Smoker went on par with ace at the beginning of Alabasta.

Enel was destroying an island with his creative storms and giant thunder balls.

So i'd say the output is about the same, the effectiveness of their using it changes how strong they are, excluding haki, in my opinion. doesn't just boil down to "lols i have more Light than you do mud PEWPEWPEW" kizaru wins. Caribou might be able to lower himself into the earth, touch the ground he'll dry hump you to death. He's just too much a moron to realize the entire earth is his playing ground. (sabaondy being a terrible example- all tree roots)

[Pipio]

What I meant by I think devil fruit users can increase the strength of their fruits/abilities by strengthening the devil spirit is different than increasing their combat effectiveness.

Crocodile stated that DF users need to come up with different ways to use their fruit, which we've seen all talented characters doing that. For example, Crocodile could have started out by throwing sand in people's faces, to a sand based blunt attack, to finally making a sand sword that compresses the sand more intensely than his attacks before.

By increasing his devil's spirit, or by becoming more synchronized with his devil fruit, the user should gain stronger control over their fruit, and a higher resistance to abilities that effect will. So let's say Crocodile increased his devil's spirit to grain more control over larger amounts of sand. It's not something you can really be creative about, you just need more power to lift/manipulate/grain stronger control over your fruit/element/power.

[Aevar]

We know that you can imbue things like arrows and swords with haki f.x. the kuja pirates and Shanks but I was wondering if you can imbue haki to non physical things. Like could Kizaru imbue haki to his beam.

[CaptainKid]

We know that you can imbue things like arrows and swords with haki f.x. the kuja pirates and Shanks but I was wondering if you can imbue haki to non physical things. Like could Kizaru imbue haki to his beam.

Nobody seems to know but if you can't then wouldn't all logia users be relatively equal unless their DF has a weakness to another logia?

As for whoever said Smoker was equal to Ace, Ace obviously wasn't serious we've seen his true power vs Blackbeard & Aokiji. Ace in Alabasta was messing around minus the hiken that destroyed like 6 ships. Enel had the clouds so he was literally in the perfect environment to expand his ability along with Crocodile, I'm sure if Aokiji had fought Akainu in a frozen island he'd probably of won.

[Omni]

I'm willing to wager that it is entirely possible for Logia's to imbue Haki into all of their attacks simply because as stated "Busoshoku Haki allows the user to create a force similar to an invisible armor around themselves" and considering all of the element they produces comes from their own body they could simply coat themselves in the Haki before releasing the attack from their body, similar to how the Kuja are able to imbue their arrows with Haki because they are touching them before they are released. Imbuing Haki into something without physical contact seems unlikely though for example Law probably can't imbue Haki into his Room to add any additional effects.

My main train of thought stemming from the the fight between Aokiji and Akainu on Punk Hazard. Mainly because two Logia users, knowing the only way to likely damage the opponent was by using Haki, both still used massive amounts of their respective elements enough so to permanently change the climate on both sides of the island. They obviously didn't just haki imbued fist fight each other otherwise the climate wouldn't have changed, but instead we see they used their powers and in a major way. Assuming Akainu's magma has superiority to Aokiji's ice than what purpose would Aokiji even have to use his Ice against Akainu knowing it would have no effect? But with enough Haki it's very plausible to assume Aokiji could possibly freeze Akainu despite his Devil Fruit ability to turn into magma because the Haki allows for the devil fruit ability to be by passed.

My last point being could WhiteBeard's Gura Gura no Mi have affected a Logia without Haki? Or even luffy for that matter? Now this example obviously isn't 100% solid because I'm unsure if there is an example of WhiteBeard not physically holding the Quake Sphere when using it against a logia (regarding the ranged use of Haki being applied to a Devil Fruit power), but even by nature would an earthquake actually hurt a liquid being or a rubber being without help from Haki? It definitely could be argued that it simply was WhiteBeard's fist that was Haki imbued and that by itself made Akainu susceptible to the earthquake power, but could he have possibly imbued Haki into both for an even greater impact?

[Drazgoon]

I'm willing to wager that it is entirely possible for Logia's to imbue Haki into all of their attacks simply because as stated "Busoshoku Haki allows the user to create a force similar to an invisible armor around themselves" and considering all of the element they produces comes from their own body they could simply coat themselves in the Haki before releasing the attack from their body, similar to how the Kuja are able to imbue their arrows with Haki because they are touching them before they are released. Imbuing Haki into something without physical contact seems unlikely though for example Law probably can't imbue Haki into his Room to add any additional effects.

they only problem i have with this, is that if it were still part of their body, attacking akainu's magma fist for example should technically hurt him.

[Aevar]

I think whenever a logia shots his element some distance it no longer is part of their body like Kizaru's beam or akainu's magma fists( those that he fired up in the sky and it rains down) because if it was a part of their body then wouldn't they be losing a part of their body when the attack is over. The question is could those kind of attacks be imbue'd with haki since it does not have physical properties.

if you can't imbue haki with those long range attacks then Logias would still be able to fight with haki in their elemental form. From what I understand the most simple form of armament haki is to put an invisible armor around your body. So if akainu would transform into his elemental form he should be able to imbue haki into the magma which is a part of his body.

[Omni]

Ahhh so are you saying both people are using Haki at this point? One to attack the magma and not get hurt (person A) while the other is enhancing their magma to deal more damage (person B) ? I believe the Haki of person A would negate the magma ability and reveal the "true body" of person B, but person B's Haki would protect their "true body" from the attack. Now if person A was attacking person B and both had a devil fruit ability and both were being enhanced by Haki I believe both powers would simply be negated and Person B would receive just a regular attack. My example you quoted wasn't in regards to the situation of someone attacking another person who was using Haki to defend themselves.

Essentialy I believe:
A attacks B = Regular Damage
A uses Haki to attack B = Extra Damage
A attacks Magma Logia B = A gets burnt
A uses Haki to attack Magma Lofia B= Extra Damage
A uses Ice Logia Freeze Attack against Magma Logia = No effect (ice melts)
A uses Haki Imbued Ice Logia Freeze Attack against Magma Logia = Ice freezes true body
A uses Haki Imbued Ice Logia Freeze Attack against Haki Coated Magma Logia = Regular damage (assuming haki level is equal)

Silly chart I know, but makes sense to me.

[MiyamotoMusashi]

I already posted this in another forum but since it fits to the current situation of Vergo´s arm turning black i´m just gonna post this here, too.

Rayleigh said that Haki is a power that every human possesses but they fail to either notice it or even if they know about this power they fail to bring it out (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/o...y_mangarule/11)

That would kind of go along with the fact that Luffy didn´t know about it but brought it out subconsciously since he is kind of a genius concerning fights
Haoushoku: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17710/o...ranky-house/12
Kenbunshoku; http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17717/o...franky-house/5
Busoushoku: This tends to be forgotten by many but Blackbeard stated in Impel Down that Luffy´s Haki has improved (http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v56/c544/9.html),
I guess that his anger towards BB in that situation brought his Busoushoku out.
This also proves that Luffy doesn´t necessarily have to have black skin in order to use Haki. 4 more examples:

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/4483/one-piece_ch601_by_mangarule/13 (a normal Jet Pistol without "Koka" but Sentoumaru still states that he uses Haki)
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/...y_mangarule/10 (Again no "Koka", just Jet Mace)
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/...y_mangarule/12 (Jet Stamp, no hardening)
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/106234/...by_mangarule/3 (Here he even just grabs Smashigi without even attacking)

These examples kind of lead me to believe that Luffy´s attacks from now on all will be with Haki and that "Hardening Haki" is just a special way to use it. Besides, the only time Luffy has used Gear2 with his "Hardening Haki" resulted in Red Hawk. The other times he used "Koka" was in his normal state.
Furthermore, this way of using Busoushoku in a special way doesn´t have to be exclusive to Luffy alone because it has nothing to do with his DF. Red Hawk on the other hand wouldn´t work without the Gomu Gomu No Mi or rather without Gear2.

[gemadog7]

Wait Monkey D Luffy's limit is 50,000 or he was saving some for the crew?

[desa]

Wait Monkey D Luffy's limit is 50,000 or he was saving some for the crew?

I think it's is limit since Oda compared him to what Shanks would be capable of.

[nonectra]

It's not really a limit? It's just what he was capable of doing. There are no hard limits on how many people Haoshoku Haki can knock out; rather, it's based on how many people are in the area and how strong they were. If every single person there could be defeated with no thought by Luffy, then they'd all have been KO'd.

[gemadog7]

Their will just was not powerful enough, right?

[CaptainKid]

In your opinion what are the main questions you have about haki that haven't been answered yet?

Mine would be these 4:

1) What if any other uses does CoC besides taking people out?
2) Can haki be used in logia projectile attacks?
3) Why does Luffy turn black when using haki at some points and not at others? -Miyamoto Musashi, you answered this as best anyone could (didn't see your post before I asked)
4) When Shanks was damaging WB's ship was that CoC or CoA or what?

[nonectra]

My current main question is: since Armament: Hardening exists, what other "Armament: ________" techniques exist/are we going to get? I've said this before, but so far, Haki seems like an incredibly generic power right now and I'm really hoping that there's more customization involved than what we currently have.

[Drazgoon]

In your opinion what are the main questions you have about haki that haven't been answered yet?

Mine would be these 4:

1) What if any other uses does CoC besides taking people out?
2) Can haki be used in logia projectile attacks?
3) Why does Luffy turn black when using haki at some points and not at others? -Miyamoto Musashi, you answered this as best anyone could (didn't see your post before I asked)
4) When Shanks was damaging WB's ship was that CoC or CoA or what?

Sadly only #4 was confirmed, it was CoC. Sort of answers #1 though it's not a real answer. And theoretically if th amazons could imbue their arrows (projectiles) i believe logia users should be able too, though again there isn't really any confirmation

[Pipio]

Sadly only #4 was confirmed, it was CoC. Sort of answers #1 though it's not a real answer. And theoretically if th amazons could imbue their arrows (projectiles) i believe logia users should be able too, though again there isn't really any confirmation

Wait where was #4 confirmed? That means CoC can be more useful than just a folder K.O or inspiration for friends.

[Drazgoon]

Wait where was #4 confirmed? That means CoC can be more useful than just a folder K.O or inspiration for friends.

. As close as could be to a confirmation, once he was close enough whitebeard told shanks he was flashing his ambition around, and he himself said he didn't want to take any chances since it was an enemy ship

[MohMoo]

In your opinion what are the main questions you have about haki that haven't been answered yet?

Mine would be these 4:

1) What if any other uses does CoC besides taking people out?

"conquering" wild beasts