General 'Haki' Discussion

[HaxeyeMihawk]

Well I doubt Aisa trained for mantra, just one day she probably just started hearing voices.

[Vanessa]

That's my point, Aisa was just that good at it once she started using Mantra which is why she's an exception.

I mean I doubt her ability to use Mantra manifested itself as soon as she popped out of the womb.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

That's my point, Aisa was just that good at it once she started using Mantra which is why she's an exception.

I mean I doubt her ability to use Mantra manifested itself as soon as she popped out of the womb.

Hmm true, so do you think all aspects of haki can be reached through training? Because if Aisa was the exception and not the rule then mantra must be something Sandersonia and the priests trained for.

[Dan Dangerously]

If you think that every little instance of Luffy's outbursts has Ambition somehow magically seeping through then you're an idiot. It's looking for connections that don't exist simply because of reader's hindsight regarding past events in One Piece.

I would say you're the idiot for ruling out any possibility in a situation where so little is actually known.

And i don't really think that. At all. Read the post again.

[Vanessa]

It's in the same vein as people claiming Ambition is what woke up Newgate during Ace's attempt to kill him.

So it's very easy to write it off as idiotic.

Hmm true, so do you think all aspects of haki can be reached through training?

Yes and no.

Yes because hypothetically if given enough time and experience I could see someone like... Luffy picking up all the different attributes Ambition is capable of due to him having the Overlord aspect. No because we have seen what has essentially become a "dissolution" of Ambition in general over time in One Piece.

We(the readers) for the most part figured out that Ambition is the core group in which abilities like Mantra, Tekkai, Kami-e and some others derive from. However, for most of the characters, the aforementioned things are completely seperate from one another, and the ones who refer to it as Ambition either don't have the necessary knowledge to connect them. Then you have people like the Kuja who most likely do have such information and are fully capable of figuring it out, but are isolated from most people.

I'll use Aisa as an example: We know she has an extraordinary gift for Mantra, and while us reading know it's simply one aspect of Ambition as a whole she won't. So Aisa will likely always know of it as just Mantra, and only as an ability to predict movements. It's probably been ingrained in her culture for so long to likely just be capable of that, and trying to teach her a totally different aspect won't work. But there is always a small chance but it'd have to be more over a long period of time.

So I think it's more of a culture issue as to why it wouldn't happen within the story itself, but potentially and in a hypothetical scenario I think it could.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

Ok so you agree with the idea that "ambition" may be innate in everyone so barring external obstacles/limiters like someone's culture or ignorance to "ambition", they could learn the techniques of "ambition" that we've seen thus far.

Yes I'm putting it in quotations each time.

[Dan Dangerously]

It's in the same vein as people claiming Ambition is what woke up Newgate during Ace's attempt to kill him.

So it's very easy to write it off as idiotic.

I don't even know what you're talking about now. But whatever. What you or i or anyone else thinks of the possibility doesn't matter. That's not the point. The point is that it is a possibility. One of many.

[Vanessa]

A very bad one that has nothing backing it.

So yeah anyway:

Ok so you agree with the idea that "ambition" may be innate in everyone so barring external obstacles/limiters like someone's culture or ignorance to "ambition", they could learn the techniques of "ambition" that we've seen thus far.

Yeah pretty much, but I think only someone who has the Overlord aspect has the potential to learn all of the different things we've seen.

For the rest it depends on the individuals' Ambition themselves in what abilities will manifest and the subsequent attempts on improving.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

A very bad one that has nothing backing it.

So yeah anyway:


Yeah pretty much, but I think only someone who has the Overlord aspect has the potential to learn all of the different things we've seen.

For the rest it depends on the individuals' Ambition themselves in what abilities will manifest and the subsequent attempts on improving.

Ok, if that's the case then that must mean that each person is born with a certain haki potential which limits how well they can master haki techniques. Secondly, if the special attribute of overlord haki is that the user is capable learning to use all the techniques then that must mean that there must be atleast 2 classes of haki techniques, with every person capable of using haki being born able to use 1 or the other but only those with overlord can use both.

So if I had to classify them I'd say that there are physical haki techniques that modify the body such as the rokushiki techniques, then there are other more abstract haki abilities that modify mind (for lack of a better word), such as mantra, the instant K.O (maybe), the ability to strike the true body of fruit users (maybe). This would explain how Marigold could use a tekkai like technique and didn't show any mantra abilities, whereas Sandersonia could use mantra but couldn't stand the fire from Marigold's technique due to not having the same haki affinity.

[Urouge]

Ok, a lot of people like to assume that Kami-e is also a haki based technique. If this is the case then your entire theory falls apart because CP9 users have mastered both while Sonia and Marie can each do one or the other.

EDIT: Just to be clear, none of this was aimed at you, Vanessa.

[Vanessa]

Ok, if that's the case then that must mean that each person is born with a certain haki potential which limits how well they can master haki techniques.

Uh...it doesn't have to mean that...

Secondly, if the special attribute of overlord haki is that the user is capable learning to use all the techniques then that must mean that there must be atleast 2 classes of haki techniques, with every person capable of using haki being born able to use 1 or the other but only those with overlord can use both.

No one is born able to use Ambition, that's exactly what I was going against. It also isn't something that can be predicted.

So if I had to classify them I'd say that there are physical haki techniques that modify the body such as the rokushiki techniques, then there are other more abstract haki abilities that modify mind (for lack of a better word), such as mantra, the instant K.O (maybe), the ability to strike the true body of fruit users (maybe). This would explain how Marigold could use a tekkai like technique and didn't show any mantra abilities, whereas Sandersonia could use mantra but couldn't stand the fire from Marigold's technique due to not having the same haki affinity.

No it doesn't mean that. It's up to the individual themself on what they'd be able to do. It isn't just one or the other, and CP9 disproves what you stated there anyway since Tekkai and Kami-e were both used amongst its members.

I think there's a big misunderstanding here, and it seems to me that you're being a little quick on categorizing and putting labels on everything. Slow it down some.

[brennen.exe]

Hmm. The biggest hole in this theory of mine right now is that Sandersonia and Marigold were hinted at being "specialists" in their specific areas of use with Ambition, and yet people like the CP9 were all able to use Tekkai extremely well, along with the Upper Yard priests being able to all use Mantra in varying degrees. You'd think that an island that specializes in this would have more people capable of using all these techniques very efficiently. On the other hand, the priests and CP9 could have all been the "select" few who had the skills required to reach their posts. Then again, back to my original analogy, many martial arts out there have similar skills and techniques that have different steps to reaching them. Some more efficient than the others, and some resulting in a more powerful or more efficient technique. And this isn't including the home-made "genius" artists out there who develop their own style and form. So perhaps the way the Kuja use Ambition is a little different, and Sandersonia is just one of the best at their version of Mantra while Marigold is one of the best at their version of Tekkai. Others can use them, but not to the same extremes and efficiencies.

[Urouge]

Even if I lost the argument, I'll have you converted before you realize it.

[brennen.exe]

lol...ohhh Vanessa.

[Vanessa]

[HaxeyeMihawk]

Ok, a lot of people like to assume that Kami-e is also a haki based technique. If this is the case then your entire theory falls apart because CP9 users have mastered both while Sonia and Marie can each do one or the other.

EDIT: Just to be clear, none of this was aimed at you, Vanessa.

Uh...it doesn't have to mean that...


No one is born able to use Ambition, that's exactly what I was going against. It also isn't something that can be predicted.


No it doesn't mean that. It's up to the individual themself on what they'd be able to do. It isn't just one or the other, and CP9 disproves what you stated there anyway since Tekkai and Kami-e were both used amongst its members.

I think there's a big misunderstanding here, and it seems to me that you're being a little quick on categorizing and putting labels on everything. Slow it down some.

Hmm. The biggest hole in this theory of mine right now is that Sandersonia and Marigold were hinted at being "specialists" in their specific areas of use with Ambition, and yet people like the CP9 were all able to use Tekkai extremely well, along with the Upper Yard priests being able to all use Mantra in varying degrees. You'd think that an island that specializes in this would have more people capable of using all these techniques very efficiently. Then again, back to my original analogy, many martial arts out there have similar skills and techniques that have different steps to reaching them. Some more efficient than the others, and some resulting in a more powerful or more efficient technique. And this isn't including the home-made "genius" artists out there who develop their own style and form. So perhaps the way the Kuja use Ambition is a little different, and Sandersonia is just one of the best at their version of Mantra while Marigold is one of the best at their version of Tekkai. Others can use them, but not to the same extremes and efficiencies.

Ok excuse the retarded number of multiquotes anyway let me clarify my thoughts:

First off I'm saying that all people have the potential (italicised) or propensity to develop haki, not the same as being born with it as you are born with an arm or a leg, however once developed your haki immediately is pointing towards one affinity or the other, or you have haoshoku in which all abilities can be potentially learned regardless of affinity.

Secondly I consider all CP9 techs to be physical affinity haki techs, tekkai is using haki to modify the body for steel like hardness, life return modifies the body allowing hair manipulation and body proportion manipulation, rankyaku obviously involves the legs, soru possibly as well.

Thirdly, to further diversify things there may be some moves that any haki user can learn through training because they don't belong to either affinity. Also I think that although one may have a certain affinity they may not be capable of doing the same techs as someone else with the same affinity due to them having weaker haki as well as doing the same techs but not as strongly, so some abilities that Lucci could do he could perform better than the other CP9 and Rokuogan only he could perform.

[Urouge]

Soru was confirmed to be a purely physical ability in nature. No kingbition necessary.

[Zkaiser]

I think my chart is the best chart.

[dreadcutlass]

Just because Sandersonia and Marigold are said to be experts doesn't put a chink in your idea Brennen. The Kuja although all of them have a rudimentary understanding of Haki are still quite sheltered. Though their island is nestled in the calm belt and their pirates no doubt pillage and plunder ships in the Grand Line they seem to have very little knowledge of the rest of the world. Their island has not even the slightest inkling that the Boa sisters powers ( snake transformation and petrify) might come from Devil Fruit. The Grand Line is a place where you should run into Devil Fruit users right yet they have no idea it seems. So when they say Marigold and Sandersonia are experts it probably only applies to amongst the Kuja.

[huron]

I would say you're the idiot for ruling out any possibility in a situation where so little is actually known.

And i don't really think that. At all. Read the post again.

i agree so much.vanessa does not mince words tho,she is straight.rare quality in these days...