I hope not^^ -.-
Personally, I am surprised this thread made it this far. Was Lucci even liked when he was first introduced in the manga??
I wouldn't say this thread is becoming Lucci vs Croc... more like "who is the best villain" but that's natural when discussing and comparing the most popular villain's
If we're talking fight-wise, Luffy's toughest opponent was Crocodile.
During Luffy vs. Lucci, Gear 2nd's first use overwhelmed Lucci by a decent amount. Only by using Life Return later on in the match to speed himself up did Lucci manage to match Luffy in terms of speed, and even then it was at a cost of strength. Which is why just before the last Rokougan Lucci reverted back to his normal hybrid zoan form to use the move at it's strongest. In addition to that, Gear 3rd managed to knock Lucci completely unconscious. Frankly he was lucky that the Buster Call ship was at that spot otherwise he'd have drowned in the ocean.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fact that Lucci gave Luffy a hell of a fight. Up until then no other opponent was a match for Luffy in terms of physical strength, and that's why I think people like to label it as Luffy's most difficult fight but that just isn't the case.
Actually I liked all the undercover CP9 agents more before they were all revealed except Blueno; he stayed decent all throughout Water 7 and Ennies Lobby.
And since we're at that topic, I'm still disappointed that the angel dude never got an important role as a main Galley-La craftsman. :(
I liked "Pigeon Guy" Lucchi rather than "CP9" Lucchi, simply because he was this silent, stoic, "Don't mess with me guy". When he started talking and morphed into his WG persona, he became just an asshole rambling about justice.
Of the shipwrights, I probably like Kaku and Paulie equally as the best. Kaku's CP9 persona, even, wasn't as drastically different from his Water 7 Persona. He still had that big goofy grin, and he was cracking jokes even when he lost.
Paulie... well, him flipping out over Nami and Calipha's attire was hilarious. In an Anime of perverted guys, the straight man is always fun times. However, as much as I liked his "Pipe Hitch Knives" move, I wasn't feeling his other rope moves.
Calling it now: Big Mom has the Sui Sui no Mi (Acid Acid Fruit).
You bring up excellent points, however, the thing is that clinches it for me is that Luffy HAD to use them. When he fought Crocodile, he didn't need to use Gears. True, he barely won but he still managed to beat him without using Gears. Now in Luffy vs Lucci, when Luffy fought him in base mode, he was clearly outmatched and over-powered. He couldn't even hold a candle to him in terms of physical combat. I truly believe that without his gears, Luffy WOULD have lost and it's only thanks to them that he managed to win. Ane he BARELY won even with them. And they gave him a huge increase in power, as well.
Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
With that, you cannot compare his fight to Croc's. You have to compare Luffy's condition then vs. Croc ~~ and his condition now vs. Lucci. Vanessa does indeed make a good point of showing that Lucci may not have been as up to par with Luffy as many of us have been arguing (I would have to read the arc again to argue that, and even then I might not), and with that evidence she is most likely right that Croc was the more difficult opponent. My perspective on all of this has been on the last few chapters of the fight, where Luffy was worn out and collapsed most of the time. I forgot about Life Return and the such, and I personally do not believe he could have dodged Luffy's initial Gear 3rd due to the initial surprise of the attack and the range. (Luffy's speed may decrease with Gear 3rd, but it never really states how much....does it?).
I think this is unfair. I do believe that Ennies Lobby Luffy is stronger than the Luffy that fought Crocodile. If Luffy and crew had the strength that they had at Ennies Lobby in Alabasta, then the fights certainly wouldn't have been hard at all.Imagine him using Gear 2 against Croc after realizing his water weakness. Croc = KO.
From my observations, Crocodile seemed to take Luffy's hits better than Enel did.He and Enel could barely take Luffy's base attacks. And Lucci laughed about them.
With this, I'll agree that physically Luffy could match and overcome Crocodile. However, other things went into the match. Certainly, Luffy's fight against Lucci the second time was extremely difficult and the most fierce that he had had yet. However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully. The first time, he was stabbed in the chest and thrown out of the building. However, he was still fully conscious and could get out of the situation on his own. The second time, he was beaten severely, but if left alone, he would have still lived.Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
In all three fights, Luffy would have died against Crocodile so what I really think is that different terms are in need here. Physically and blow for blow, Lucci wins in giving Luffy the harder time. However, Crocodile was presented as deadlier in the fights against Luffy. So I think it would be that Lucci gave Luffy a harder fight, but Crocodile gave him a deadlier one. Also, I think both of them are pretty close to each other in giving Luffy a difficult fight.
Sorry if it was long, but that's my two cents on the matter. Anyway, as I said before, many people liked Lucci for his interesting fighting style and how he gave Luffy a good fight of two people just exchanging blows. Something like that.
*Walks over to croc and takes his golden hook and vile of poison*
Croc: Awww. :(
*Hands them to lucci. Points to luffy.*
Me: Fight him
Lucci: *Grins evily and proceeds to stab/poison luffy*
Your entire last 2 paragraphs were just obliterated.
Last edited by Yonkou#3; August 13th, 2008 at 03:18 PM.
Lucci doesn't fight like that, Crocodile does. What do you mean when saying obliterated?
Lucci- None of the above. *Lucci did use his nails, oda just acted like he never did*
To Desert spada. "However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully."
This was the point of your last two paragraphs correct? Luffy cant be killed by physical blows. All lucci used was physical blows and then towards the very end of the fight some internal damaging attacks that obvoiusly were not as damaging as a 3 inch wide hook through the gut.
Thus your point was made null by the fact lucci didnt use anything that could kill luffy straight away, where as Crocodile did.
Don't most humans have a certain weakness to sharp objects, poison, drowning, being frozen and being burned? I don't get your point.
Last edited by Ivotas; August 13th, 2008 at 03:36 PM.
This goes back to my initial post in people thinking just because Lucci was the first one to match Luffy physically as a reason for thinking the above. You can't just factor in how hard someone can punch/kick/etc. to determine threat, it doesn't work that way.Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
Now this is more of a general statement to everyone, but I've seen a lot of people refer to it as "Base Luffy." Even though it's not like Gear 2nd lacks any drawbacks to speak of for one to refer it as such. It just irks me every time someone uses that term.
Is there any way you two can like get together and post your statements in one post? It's a pain quoting you both at once. :P
"Lucci used a cutting object, his nails."
I had to refute that in advance.
I also can't see how you can tax Crocodile for using his full arsenal of weapons that were different from Lucci's. My point was that for Luffy, Crocodile was a deadlier opponent. Thus, that would give him the title of being the deadliest opponent that Luffy has faced. Lucci gave him a harder physical battle though, and the title of who gave Luffy the harder fight would go to Lucci.
I love how everyone's being offtopic and anal in a "sensible" and "non-fanboyish" way now. Pitiful.
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