Why do people like Lucchi so much?

[wolfwoof]

To the others: Lucci after showing his bloodthirsty side for that 1 frame of a page, did not do anything to match that attitude i hope u noticed. he didn't go "yo im enjoying this killing mugiwara i kill u cuz i love blood omg ahhhhh" it was more technical and professional. he was sane throughout. and it jus isn't normal for lucci to be bowling on the coverstories if he was such a bloodthirsty psycho.

He doesnt need to be all blargh i need blood to let us know he likes killing and torture people he views as weak. Just look at when he killed Nero, He didnt change his expression once, But still clued us in to that hes a sadistic prick who enjoys killing. And during their fight he drops hints of it like that little George Bush esque smile after drowning the entire Strawhat crew and a little kid didnt really scream heres a man who dislikes needless killings.

Or when he lets him know hes going to stalk and kill Robin and the rest once he killed him. And of course the i killed 500 people because i felt they were to weak to live was a big part of the puzzle. And then of course we have the fact that he actualy tells us that he likes to kill which effectivly removes any doubt about it. You honestly think this man was sane and did not get a boner from torturing people?

And on your coverstory point you would do well to remember that OP is full of evil bastards who later turned their life around and redeemed themselves, Buggy, Gedatsu, Helmeppo, Jango, almost entire BW and Gin.

[Ivotas]

He doesnt need to be all blargh i need blood to let us know he likes killing and torture people he views as weak. Just look at when he killed Nero, He didnt change his expression once, But still clued us in to that hes a sadistic prick who enjoys killing. And during their fight he drops hints of it like that little George Bush esque smile after drowning the entire Strawhat crew and a little kid didnt really scream heres a man who dislikes needless killings.

Or when he lets him know hes going to stalk and kill Robin and the rest once he killed him. And of course the i killed 500 people because i felt they were to weak to live was a big part of the puzzle. And then of course we have the fact that he actualy tells us that he likes to kill which effectivly removes any doubt about it. You honestly think this man was sane and did not get a boner from torturing people?

The thing is that none of that was displayed in his fight with Luffy. He simply fought and didn't show to be enjoying to chop an opponent appart that didn't die with the first strike. What he did before with Nero, the 500 soldiers or whatsoever doesn't count. He wanted his fight with Luffy and got it. But he simply didn't display to get a thrill out of it. Which is a letdown for the build up he received.

And on your coverstory point you would do well to remember that OP is full of evil bastards who later turned their life around and redeemed themselves, Buggy, Gedatsu, Helmeppo, Jango, almost entire BW and Gin.

First of all, Gin didn't have a cover story. And secondly not one of those guys in the cover stories was an ice cold all evil bastard like Rucchi, since they all had their comedic tidbits that added sympathic parts to their personality. Rucchi however only had those with Hattori, which was a fake play. And third, not all of BW turned their life around. The really bad guy still went to Impel Down.

[wolfwoof]

Wasnt neccesarily about coverstorys, the gist was that people change and Lucci who is by all means an irredeemable asshole(Much like Wapol) might have been moved by the fact that they saved his life and nurtured him back to health. And the third point i had already addressed myself.

Why doesnt it count? they laid the foundation for his character, An outwardly stoic character who only drops his cold front when he gets to kill or inflict pain on someone. And personaly i felt it looked like he was enjoying it more than anything else, He had that psycho grin on his face for almost the entire fight. If you were expecting more of a mindless killer who only screams for blood you must have really misread the character. He enjoys it but is still a proffesional.

Edit: Oh and most of that i mentioned took place during their fight. the only exception was Nero.

[Vanessa]

Sigh, I'm sorry but you totally missed my point. The point is that the gears give Luffy an unbelievable amount of extra power. This fact is undeniable. I DO believe that it is just an evolution of his powers like you stated but I also believe that it's not the same as Gomo Gomo no Pistol but it seriously increases his strength to incredible levels. When Base Luffy(sorry if the term irks you but it's the best way for me to get my point across) fought non-leopard Lucci, Lucci was over-powering him, yet when Luffy went to Gear Second and Lucci to Leopard mode (a form that took him out in 1 strike in Galley-La and was over-powering base Luffy in the later bout) Luffy clearly over-powered him. The fact is, it is undeniable that Gear Second gives him a major power bonus.

Your point was all too obvious, but it still doesn't change the fact that when it comes down to it. Gear 2nd is simply another technique in Luffy's arsenal; what it does or has the potential to do doesn't refute it.

This is all Luffy gaining a better understanding of his Devil Fruit and taking advantage of what his has to offer. It's similar to Crocodile's Barchan, Calipha's Relax Hour and Golden Hour techniques or even Ener's Thunder Alchemy since all these aren't just simple uses of one's Devil Fruit. There's more examples but I'll reserve those if you still don't get my point.

What does this have to do with anything you ask?

Because what you stated in that part of your post was exactly the reasons people seem to think Lucci gave Luffy the toughest overall fight which isn't the case. Read my second post in this thread and you'll understand.

The point is he didn't need to use them against Crocodile.. True, he STILL hadn't invented them yet, but the point is he managaed to beat Crocodile without them yet he barely beat Lucci WITH THEM. An incredible power increase, which, if Luffy had them in Alabasta would have obliterated Crocodile easily (this is completely undeniable, Luffy seemed much more physically powerful than Crocodile in the fight, let alone going at Soru speed which there would surely have been no way Crocodile could keep up), yet against Lucci, he BARELY managed to win and let me emphasize bearly. After the fight, Luffy couldn't even move which didn't happen against Crocodile. That's how much he was damaged evev WITH his incredible power increase.

I already covered most of this in an earlier post as to why Lucci didn't "barely" beat Luffy so there's no point in addressing this, but I will respond to the last two sentences. You're making it seem like Gear 2nd is a simple power increase when that isn't the case at all. While Luffy uses it, he's essentially wearing himself out at the cost of extra speed. Add that along with the continuous Rokougans Lucci managed to hit him with(which honestly are more powerful than most attacks considering it attacks the very insides of one's body) so of course he's going to be worn out afterwards. So just because Lucci was the more physically-demanding opponent doesn't mean a greater challenge was had.

Either way it seems you're only considering how physically strong each character is to determine difficulty; honestly it's not that surprising to see since that's the main reason everyone uses. Unfortunately it isn't that simple which is why Luffy had an easier time overall against Lucci than Crocodile.

[Ivotas]

Wasnt neccesarily about coverstorys, the gist was that people change and Lucci who is by all means an irredeemable asshole(Much like Wapol) might have been moved by the fact that they saved his life and nurtured him back to health. And the third point i had already addressed myself.

Funny you mention Wapol, who is the only one who doesn't seem to have changed a bit during his coverstory. Doesn't the last page even say something along the lines "the return of evil"?

Why doesnt it count? they laid the foundation for his character, An outwardly stoic character who only drops his cold front when he gets to kill or inflict pain on someone. And personaly i felt it looked like he was enjoying it more than anything else, He had that psycho grin on his face for almost the entire fight. If you were expecting more of a mindless killer who only screams for blood you must have really misread the character. He enjoys it but is still a proffesional.

Ah, so if something is wrong then I must have misread the character and it couldn't possibly be you who did it. Pretty good display for the lack of constructive arguments. How about using some evidence to back your point up instead of borderline offensive statements?

[wolfwoof]

Ouch, and here i was thinking it was nice to have a levelheaded conversation. But yeah i also felt that Wapol never learned a lesson, Thats why i didnt mention him with the rest of the redeemed.

And once again sorry if i offended you mate it was never my intention, but always remember even if i dont throw in any IMO or in my opinion it should still always be taken as such and not as some divine fact. And from my point of view a raving psycho screaming for blood is not at all what Lucci was supposed to be, He was more of a subtle killer. And if you think im dead wrong or i missinterpertated you then let me know.

As for the "evidence" and i use the term lightly since its basicly interpertation coupled with one manga fact, i think ive brought alot to the table, and only had it countered with it didnt happen during his fight with Luffy so it doesnt count, Which is funny cause 3/5 of what i mentioned happen during that very same fight.

[Ivotas]

And once again sorry if i offended you mate it was never my intention, but always remember even if i dont throw in any IMO or in my opinion it should still always be taken as such and not as some divine fact. And from my point of view a raving psycho screaming for blood is not at all what Lucci was supposed to be, He was more of a subtle killer. And if you think im wrong then let me know why.

It's ok, I just had to intervene before the discussion follows that route, so I can live with that. Since you ask I'll explain where my gripe with Rucchi's portrayal is comming from.

I understand your point but the reason why I don't consider it a satisfying portrayal of Rucchi is because in comparison to the other villains I used as example Rucchi wasn't fleshed out as he could have. Arlong for instance was a fishman racists and he constantly used his time to express his views, such as taking about inferiour races and how practically useful Nami is to him for example. Crocodile for instance displayed his mastermind tendencies while constantly raping Vivi mentaly with statements like what driving thougth will bring Arabasta down, rubbing it into her face that she can't save the country before he lets her fall, bragging to Luffy what he all stole and finally laughing his ass of because the bomb turned out to be a time bomb. Enel on the other hand constantly displayed his superior god complex with his a combo of DF ability and true god statements. Spandam used every second given to him to display that he's a saddistic pussy and Moria showed in word and action that how and why he relies on others. They all lived up to their hype.

Rucchi on the other hand was hyped more then he showed in the end. He was definitely a deadly killing machine and put up one hell of a fight against Luffy. He even had lots of villain-esque lines. But neither his fighting style nor his lines went down the "enjoy the killing" route. He was bragging about chasing Nico Robin to the ends of the world and finishing of all the Strawhats once Luffy is finished. Good job, but did he intentionally let Luffy catch up just to tell him that? Where's the "I like prey that doesn't go down easily and requires time and work to be chopped appart" line?

I mean ok, he's an ice cold killer, so he doesn't need to talk much about it and facial expressions can do the trick. But the thing is, if he can talk about justice and crap then he can do about his kick too. All the others did it why can't he? Either put proper dialog in his mouth or let him shut up completely. Take for instance this page from Bleach. This is one of my favorite scenes from Bleach because it shows how insanely Zaraki enjoys a good fight. Later on he even explains it with words but the image alone speaks books.

As I said before, I don't want Rucchi to be a Zaraki clone. But actually he wouldn't since the one's a fighter and the other's a killer. What would have worked is to flesh his thrills out he got while chopping off Luffy. He was happy to see Luffy cross the abyss, he intentianally let Luffy find his way through the tunnel. All for the pure fun of killing him. But in the end all expressions we received from Rucchi since then where on the field of finishing the job and not about enjoying doing it. This is not what the prelude indicated.

As for the "evidence" and i use the term lightly since its basicly interpertation coupled with one manga fact, i think ive brought alot to the table, and only had it countered with it didnt happen during his fight with Luffy so it doesnt count, Which is funny cause 3/5 of what i mentioned happen during that very same fight.

True that with evidence you have to be carefull. But what I meant are examples like I brought in this post for the other villains. For Rucchi I don't see anything of that sort. The only times I rember him laugh (=enjoyment) is when he tells Luffy that he can't save his friends and when he is floating about one of the BC ships. The first is actually a statement that could have come from Crocodile and on the second he doesn't laugh because he himself finished Luffy off but because Onigumo is about to annihilate him. With evidence I mean, examples that show Rucchi was getting a thrill of the fight. I didn't see any of the same level as all the other villains get to prove that they live up to their hype.

[wolfwoof]

Rucchi on the other hand was hyped more then he showed in the end.

Oh i definitly agree, He could have been much much more. All im arguing against is the notion that Lucci was a honorable fighter who didnt enjoy killing. On the rest i think were on the same wave length.

Hmm theres something real familiar about this scenario, Aruing for a couple of hours with Ivotas only to realize you dont have that much you disagree on, Im getting a serious feeling of deja vu

[Roku Ou Gan]

wolfwood: if lucci is the type that gets off on killing i think he'd go be a pirate or a bandit or jack the ripper in a country or something...don't you think?

to me the fact he kills without hesitation is because of his firm, though way too extreme, belief that the evil shall perish, and to him, weak is evil, therefore perishes. oda explained in an SBS that lucci's thought process on how weak is in a way evil because if lucci simply destroyed the pirates that were invading the country and rescuing the 500 weak soldiers, the same scenario can happen another day.

to be honest i think oda shouldn't have made him say such a thing like "blood, if i stay here (WG), even killing can be justified". because we're talking about someone who lived at water seven for a few years peacefully and he even said himself if possible he didn't want to hurt iceburg to get his hands on blueprint. He's obviously not insane, just simply a person who upholds his belief of 'justice' and 'weak is a crime'. Nero was a big screw up, tried to kill franky when the mission is to capture, after he lost badly too. That's weak as hell in all aspect so, made sense lucci trashed him (as many of the other villains woulda done too like Croc).
also, if he was a bloodthirsty guy who needs blood and killing in the name of justice, why didnt he kill Luffy, he turned around and about to leave him there. what was that lol

to Ivotas: to say that oda didn't follow up on his bloodthirstiness is correct, but wouldn't it seem more like the character itself wasn't like that in the first place and if that line of bloodthirstiness was more of a...i hate to say this, but a mistake on the author? that 1 line contradicted his character and gave many readers the impression that lucci is a psycho killer. Oda may have noticed but he can't just go "sry guys forget he said that" lol

o man sorry Oda, ur still the best of the best, genius, demigod, please forgive my sins.

[wolfwoof]

wolfwood: if lucci is the type that gets off on killing i think he'd go be a pirate or a bandit or jack the ripper in a country or something...don't you think?

Why risk becoming a criminal when you can have the same thing legaly. That and the fact that he didnt have much choice in the matter.

And the mans obviously a psychopath, He said himself he has no fond memories or cares about anyone in W7. And yet he still held up a facade of friendlyness with all the foremen.

[Kaze]

Aside from The admiral, this was the toughest fight luffy's ever had.

That's why I like Lucchi.

[Mr. Lucci]

I actually liked that Lucci kept his cool for the majority of the fight with Luffy. Except maybe near the end.

I see where you're coming from though Ivotas.

[Roku Ou Gan]

Why risk becoming a criminal when you can have the same thing legaly. That and the fact that he didnt have much choice in the matter.

And the mans obviously a psychopath, He said himself he has no fond memories or cares about anyone in W7. And yet he still held up a facade of friendlyness with all the foremen.

Are all spies psychopaths then? CP9 is there to do stuff like that, spying, espionage, doesn't take a psycho to act friendly to their target. It's their job. To say he's psycho based on that is like saying Kaku and Kalifa are also psychopaths for putting up a friendly facade.
here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/345/17/
Kalifa did say they wanted to do it without harming him to preserve the memories.
All of Lucci's "i don't regret leaving this place abit" and "i nvr thought of u as my friend" thing was more like "yo im macho man" to me. I mean in the end he didnt kill Paulie, he tied him up with a rope and set the building on fire, giving them more of a chance to be saved or escape than simply stabbing their guts out. This may not be convincing enough but lets see how their coverstory turns out before we draw our conclusion.

[Ivotas]

Hmm theres something real familiar about this scenario, Aruing for a couple of hours with Ivotas only to realize you dont have that much you disagree on, Im getting a serious feeling of deja vu

You tell me. How I miss the good old days where some of us derailed topics for hours with back to back posts only to have to all agree in the end.^^

to Ivotas: to say that oda didn't follow up on his bloodthirstiness is correct, but wouldn't it seem more like the character itself wasn't like that in the first place and if that line of bloodthirstiness was more of a...i hate to say this, but a mistake on the author? that 1 line contradicted his character and gave many readers the impression that lucci is a psycho killer. Oda may have noticed but he can't just go "sry guys forget he said that" lol

Well actually it happened more then once. Rucchi just mentioned the bloodthristyness once in front of Spandam, but the fact that he smiled in excitement when the Strawhats crossed the bridge and that he clearly aimed for Luffy to follow him (which with admitting he witnessed Chimey peek on them AND being satisfied that Luffy finally arrived happened in two stages) shows that he's eager for the confrontation. Then there's also the fact that he killed 500 soldiers as a teenager. This just screams joy to kill for me. It doesn't need to be the bloodlust, but he definitely must feel some excitement when he uses his body as a weapon. It was hinted towards with more then one time. And unfortunally we didn't see anything of that, which is a narrative letdown.

o man sorry Oda, ur still the best of the best, genius, demigod, please forgive my sins.

Nothing to apologize. It's clearly sloppy writing by Oda. That's not a bad thing after all. It's just that people here go "oh shitnapz" when somebody dares to find Oda's decissions bad here and there. Nobody is perfect and I can still enjoy One Piece and Oda's creativity even though I don't like everything he does. You shouldn't feel bad for disliking something he did. Not all of us are backboneless Yes-men like game2005 who don't have the courage to critically reflect something they like.

[Luffy Batter]

Ss

You tell me. How I miss the good old days where some of us derailed topics for hours with back to back posts only to have to all agree in the end.^^



Well actually it happened more then once. Rucchi just mentioned the bloodthristyness once in front of Spandam, but the fact that he smiled in excitement when the Strawhats crossed the bridge and that he clearly aimed for Luffy to follow him (which with admitting he witnessed Chimey peek on them AND being satisfied that Luffy finally arrived happened in two stages) shows that he's eager for the confrontation. Then there's also the fact that he killed 500 soldiers as a teenager. This just screams joy to kill for me. It doesn't need to be the bloodlust, but he definitely must feel some excitement when he uses his body as a weapon. It was hinted towards with more then one time. And unfortunally we didn't see anything of that, which is a narrative letdown.



Nothing to apologize. It's clearly sloppy writing by Oda. That's not a bad thing after all. It's just that people here go "oh shitnapz" when somebody dares to find Oda's decissions bad here and there. Nobody is perfect and I can still enjoy One Piece and Oda's creativity even though I don't like everything he does. You shouldn't feel bad for disliking something he did. Not all of us are backboneless Yes-men like game2005 who don't have the courage to critically reflect something they like.

Sloppy? Hardly. I enjoyed his portrayal of Lucci. He didn't have to break his composure and make him all, "BLOOD BLOOD, I WANT YOUR BLOOD!!!" He showed his dark, sadistic, blood-thirsty nature in more subtle ways which was the best choice given how much if a professional he was.

@Vanessa, we'll have to agree to disagree here. But the "What does this ahve to do with anything, you ask?" was just dramatic build-up for the record:P

[SMUDGE]

people like him coz he was the 1 responsible 4 makin luffy push past the limits of his current abilities, in my opinion jabura is better, not strength wise but humour and personality definately

[headphonepirate]

Lucchi pushed luffy past his limits? I thought aokji did that one

[Luffy Batter]

Aokiji owned him before he could even do anything.

[headphonepirate]

That is true but I'm sure luffy's limits were passed ( the gears) were made because aokji owned him so hard. At least thats what i think.