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Thread: Non-Disney animation thread

  1. #2361

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shift View Post
    Exactly. So if equally talented actors takes over roles like Apu, like Carl and Dr. Hubbert and Bumblebee Man with the original actors' blessings, then all should be well, shouldn't it?
    Yes, if its what the actors want and its not just a blanket minority quota being handed down from above.

    In this case we know Hank Azaria is fine with giving up Apu, and presumably the other actors are fine with giving up one role out of dozens. (And Dr. Hibbert was phased out when the cosby stuff came up anyway) And in Apu's case explicitly, he was absolutely an outdated racial stereotype.

    But making a blanket case that at all time all black characters MUST be voiced by black people or all asian characters MUST be voiced by asians is commendable, but not required.

    Look at how almost the entire cast of Bob's Burger's is men playing female parts. They're not taking away from female actors, they're providing a unique voice that you're not going to get from a female actor, same way female actors usually play child characters. (Interestingly, Tina was a boy in the pilot, then they switched her to a girl, but kept the exact same voice and it worked.)

    Equity over equality. Even if there are more white people than other races in the US, that shouldn't mean that they still get to be cast in a majority of the roles in any given show simply by right. That would mean more white actors get more opportunities than everybody else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    If the identity of the VA doesn't matter, then why are they all white?

    Saying that their identity doesn't matter and the role should go to 'the best voice' is just an empty platitude born in a vacuum and ignorant of reality. The reality is that systemic biases present themselves before a voice actor even makes it to an audition. The reality is that there is no best voice for a role, but thousands of equally capable ones out there and yet they still end up only casting white people. The reality is that despite a world of many talented English-speaking Japanese voice actors, Kubo and the Two Strings - a 2016 movie entirely about Japanese culture featuring only Japanese characters taking place in Japan - gave all the top billed roles to white people plus George Takei as the villain.

    There are no objective standards, nor some council in place to ensure that the roles went to the mathematically-determined best possible fit. There are just a bunch of humans replicating bias out of ease, habit or malice. The vast majority of roles already go to white people. The absolute very least we can do to break down that bias is to ensure that the sliver of minority roles out there get filled by the many ignored, yet equally or better capable minority voice actors out there.

    No one is saying by *right*. Just by, everyone auditions, and the best fit for the role gets the part. Again, GOOD casting studios don't look at the booth until after they hear the voice. (Greg Weisman's projects like Gargoyles, Spidermman, and Young Justice are loaded with this, though they do try to also hire minorities appropriately... but for example they cast Elisa and then actually changed the ethnicity of the character to match the actress! They had no idea Goliath was going to be Keith David, before they cast him they were ranging a wiiiide net, he could have been Patrick Stewart type for instance, though that would have gotten weird fast with the other Trek actors they got. They also went out of their way to diversify Spiderman's supporting cast, like making Liz darker instead of just another blonde, and have done wonders for the DC characters in Young Justice)

    Bad casting studios will just hire their friends or people on their steady B-role. (WHich is why anime dubs have the same 10 actors doing literally everything.)

    And REALLY bad casting studios being directed my execs and not the actual talent hunters, will just demand famous names regardless of how well they fit. Movie studios don't give a shit and they'll hire a famous name to put on the billing rather than the actual best fit, that's why you get a D-list Celebrities voicing Fred and Shaggy in the new Scooby Doo movie, even though Frank Welker (voice of Fred for FIFTY ONE YEARS) was already in the movie and Matt Lillard whose been doing the voice for 20 years was available. That's why you get Kubo and the Two Strings loaded with non-asian actors despite being VERY asian and everyone has american accents, because they wanted someone from Game of Thrones for the lead, and the rest of the accents had to follow suit, but its clearly not what the production would have done left to their own judgements given 99% of the rest of the film was very asian.

    ANd it's why so many Disney animated films AFTER Aladdin, where Robin Williams proved a name could be a draw, are just full of celebrities rather than actual good fits. (Why else was Simba voiced by the kid from Home Improvement? Because JTT was hot at the time. Actually almost every character in Lion King was a big name. Why was Mel Gibson in Pocahontas? Eddie Murphy in Mulan? Martin Short in Treasure Planet? All the random guests in Fantasia 2000? ) The Disney films don't really get to actual voice inspired casting again until you get maybe Tony Jay in Hunchback, or James Woods in Hercules. Chris Sanders being Stich in Lilo and Stitch... yeah he was the director but really, it had to be him. And there will be occasions where you'll hear "yeah, we had this animator in dubbing for the temp track, and we tried to hire a different name, but we just liked the temp voice too much."

    The trick, and the disadvantage disparity you're pointing to, is studio head mandates AREN'T good casting directors. They're NOT picking the best roles for the part. That's where the problem lies, not with the casting directors who actually do their job properly.

    Obviously there's a disparity. You ask an agency to sent you more writers they'll send you white by default, you have to ASK for color or religion, and that's a complete failing of the system. No one is debating that.

    But animation is literally the one field that can and SHOULD be colorblind, and when its handled *properly*, it is.

    It is not always handled properly.
    Last edited by Robby; June 29th, 2020 at 05:32 PM.
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  2. #2362
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    I've laid out that there is no such thing as a 'best fit' for a role, and why the auditions received and the idea of what the 'best fit' for a given role are still influenced by prejudice. These issues extend through the whole industry and not just to big productions.

    'Voice acting should be colorblind' is technically correct in the same way 'all lives matter' is technically correct in that they're obvious statements that miss the point, distract from the real issues and only serve to benefit the maintenance of a shitty status quo.

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  3. #2363

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Gilbert Gottfried is absolutely THE voice for Iago. James Woods is absolutely THE voice for Hades. James Earl Jones is THE voice for Darth Vader. Eddie Murphy is... Eddie Murphy. And no one could be the Genie that Robin Williams was.

    Yeah you can get someone else to do an impression of those voices and get a similar quality now that you know what they sound like and what the final product ended up being, , or you can write a script around that kind of voice and personality, but you don't get the same thing. They had a very talented actor imitate Robin Williams for a movie and like 100 episodes of the tv series. He never even once felt close to Robin Williams even with years to make the character his own, he was always a lesser imitation.

    If I tell a casting agency "get me someone that sounds like Keith David" that's doable, and you can get Kevin Michael Richardson, because you know what you're looking for and those guys both have the gravely voiced big sound. "Get me someone who sounds like Kevin Conroy to play Batman, but isn't Kevin Conroy" can get you Bruce Greenwood. "Get someone that can do a Tim Curry style voice" you can almost certainly find someone to hit that sound, and then instruct them to overact in a very Tim Curry way, if that's the voice you had in mind all along. But if you didn't know you wanted that actor until you got that actor? Would you initially think of Tim Curry to play Captain Hook straight, or for for silly King Arthur?

    You're getting what that actor brings to the table, not just the sound of their voice. Heck, Dan Castellaneta has always been Homer SImpson and even he doesn't give the same Homer he used to, it's not *just* about the sound.

    And I stand behind "black man plays asian man is great casting" with Samurai Jack.
    Last edited by Robby; June 29th, 2020 at 11:29 PM.
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  4. #2364
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Those voices are only codified because they're the people we got for those roles. There is no reason why those characters couldn't have been voiced by any number of other people who would have done just as good a job, if not better.

    The fact that a lot of those 'THE voice's are white people does contribute to more white people getting roles, though.

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  5. #2365

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Literally half the names I listed above are black.
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  6. #2366
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    I'm not talking about those specific ones, I'm talking in general. Those voices that people call THE definitive voices. The canon of popular voices that define character archetypes in pop culture are white. You're ignoring the point.

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  7. #2367

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    I'm not missing the point, we're talking about two different things.

    I already covered this at length on the last page. I have already repeatedly acknowledged your broader point as absolutely correct and right multiple times, at length, I don't know what else to tell you.

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    [QUOTE=Robby;4060560]
    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The disconnect here is you're discussing two different topics.

    What you're talking about is "Open up the industry for more talent" which absolutely, it needs to do. More women, more gays, more colors, more religions. At all levels of all creative fields, writing, directing, art, color, whatever. Of course ALL entertainment industries need to get better about that, not just animation, not just film. Comic books and novels and anything else... and also outside of entertainment in the tech industry and schools and doctors and anything else.

    OF COURSE there should be more equality in terms of opportunity and pay and having more voices fill out a roster. There's no argument there. Look at the all white male congress for the Republicans and the diverse congress the dems have. Absolutely, of course diversity is the way forward and more opportunity should be given to those that haven't had it.

    But that is a completely different discussion than "replace existing talent to put in a token based PURELY on their token quality, and do so enmasse."

    When casting new projects? Absolutely, shoot for the stars. They're two different arguments and two different debates.

    Like on the Cleveland Show (ugg) which was an all black sitcom, it would have been reprehensible to have an all white cast. But the lead, having come from a different show, being voiced by a white guy is fine, he has a unique voice, and the rest of the cast DID have black actors and they brought in some black writers, because that's 100% a case where that's the right thing to do and shoot for.

    On the Simpsons? Yes, retire Apu or recast him, he's an old *racist* stereotype that was originally meant to be a one line joke and were the Simpsons not the Simpsons, would have been left behind decades ago and forgotten. But to go "every single black character on the Simpsons is now being replaced" in a blanket move is a bit much. Does Smithers need to be played by a gay man now?

    It's actually probably more telling that you CAN point to the Simpsons and go "yes, we can replace every single black character without affecting the show... all three of them." That's slightly awkward in and of itself and is probably something that should be addressed, and should have been years ago. (Ditto asian and hispanic and etc.)




    And that just proves the point that it doesn't matter. I didn't even know he'd been replaced.

    Recast when you need to and treat the roll with respect, and get the best person for the role, but don't do it JUST to fill a quota.

    Like Simpsons has been going for 30 years. If they said "we're getting older, so we're starting to train replacements so that the show will go on past one of us dying" that's fine That's a tradition the Muppets and Disney characters have done for decades. Just going "and this season half the secondary cast is suddenly going to sound different for reasons." is where its iffy.

    Though again as it turns out "every black character in Simpsons can fit into a single car" actually... isn't that many so that's its own issue.

    That said, they always call in the same actor to play Fat Tony, so I'm not sure where the line really is for that show.
    Last edited by Robby; June 29th, 2020 at 11:56 PM.
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  8. #2368
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Its always good to remember that Outcome Bias is a thing, especially in creative media. Just because we like the end result of something doesn't mean it was "planned all along, 100% inevitable, the way it would've always turned out", nor does it mean that an alternate outcome couldn't have been as or more appealing. Not that you would know it from a lot of online media discourse, of course.

    Anyway, I'm more inclined to believe VA representation disparity is due to wide systemic issues in the industry, rather than...a few bad VA casting apples. Well, a lot of bad ones.

    Also, this made me think of an interview with Raphael Bob Waksberg discussing the casting of white characters for various minorities in Bojack Horseman, specifically Diane. Not the end truth on the matter obviously, as if such a thing could exist, but an interesting perspective at least from someone whos done a lot of soul searching on the matter after, in his words, being "young and so green" and not really having the courage or inclination to push wholly for POC casting.
    https://uproxx.com/tv/bojack-horseman-diversity-diane-interview-raphael-bob-waksberg-alison-brie/

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapheal Bob Waksberg
    “I think I used the idea of color-blind casting—[of] “It doesn’t really matter” — as an excuse to not pay attention. I just said, okay, let’s find good people for every role … But I think if you’re not paying attention, you’re going to end up with mostly white people just because that’s how our industry is set up,” he explained “If you want to go against that, you have to be active about it. You have to actively hire people of color.

  9. #2369

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Well sure. If we'd gotten Tem Selleck as Indiana Jones or Will Smith as Neo or Eric Stolz as Marty McFly, they'd ultimately be very different films and maybe those actors would be the only ones we could think of in those roles, or maybe the movies become forgotten footnotes instead of successes.

    There's always "a different person could have played the part."

    But for the performance we got, for what the creative team ended up shooting for once they had that talent in had, for the strengths and weaknesses they opted to work with, that product was what we would only get with that specific talent involved.


    And yes, if you want to push for minority talent you have to actively do so because the system is what it is and that sucks. But if you're trying to get one thing, but then you get someone else that comes in an just blows you away and is perfect for the part?

    Obviously there are some cases where race is SO integral to a character you absolutely can not change it, they HAVE to be that race. You're not going to cast Django Unchained or Roots with an Asian. You're not going to cast Rocky Balboa as anything but a minority, because being a minority (the italian stallion) is a crucial part of him getting his big break. You aren't going to cast Black Panther and not get a black guy. And only David Bowie can be David Bowie.

    But when its just an open part and it doesn't matter so much? What does it matter what race the main character of The Dark Tower is? Why can't Hermione from Harry Potter be black? How much does it really matter what race James Bond is? When it doesn't matter, cast whoever is best for the part.

    Doctor Who they wanted the 11th to be an older guy, to contrast the one they'd just had. Matt Smith came in and knocked them out, so they ended up casting the youngest actor in the role yet instead. Wasn't what they were thinking of, but it was the best talent they found. Then the next time they went older. Then a woman. (They were almost certainly dead set on casting a woman specifically that time, finally, but its a role that can go to the actual best actor for the role.)
    Last edited by Robby; June 30th, 2020 at 03:22 AM.
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  10. #2370
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    I get the points about minority roles being played by minority characters exclusively from here on out, but I don't think roles that have had white va's for 30 years should necessarily be changed. If the systematic issue is how white people are favored over all others in voice acting, then the system needs to be changed for the present and future, not the past. If a voice actor feels an actual conviction to give up their role, that's one thing, but going as far as redubbing old voices is dishonest and mostly useless unless the voice was wildly offensive.

  11. #2371

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    And yes, if you want to push for minority talent you have to actively do so because the system is what it is and that sucks. But if you're trying to get one thing, but then you get someone else that comes in an just blows you away and is perfect for the part?
    wasn't this how we got Joss Whedon's Firefly being nearly an entire-non-Asian cast because Jewel Staite's audition impressed him enough lol

  12. #2372

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    So Close Enough is just Regluar Show with actual humans? Close Enough.

  13. #2373

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    And way more overt Penis Jokes. Cant forget those!

  14. #2374

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread


  15. #2375

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Well, that's a welcome surprise for once this year.

  16. #2376
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    I'm up for more Clone High. The series was underrated.

  17. #2377

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sano View Post
    I'm up for more Clone High. The series was underrated.
    Blame Ghandi for that, which oddly wasn't named in that article. It would probably be for the best if he wasn't in.

  18. #2378

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    And everybody is happy with that, well at least I am.
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    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    Blame Ghandi for that, which oddly wasn't named in that article. It would probably be for the best if he wasn't in.
    What wacky ADHD perv Ghandi was cool man,that's one of the few jokes I still remember, that and Kennedy dying every episode. Should do I rewatch, downloaded that recently.

  19. #2379
    Just badass Sano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    The series still holds up, I rewatch it like a year or two ago when MTV classic launch.

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  20. #2380

    Default Re: Non-Disney animation thread

    Jesus at this point why not just bring back O'Blongs & Baby Blues
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    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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