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Thread: Star Wars Universe

  1. #1741
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Spoiler:

    Well, people debate about Luke's choices to go into exile and consider killing Ben preemptively (even if he only considered it for two seconds) to be inconsistent when this is the same guy who remained steadfast in redeeming Darth Vader even though the likes of Obi-Wan and Yoda said he was too far gone, "more machine than man". As well as not liking how Luke ends up becoming what Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up as when Luke's journey in Return of the Jedi was being countering their mistakes and decisions. Especially when, like you mentioned, Luke left behind a map for people to find him.

    Why did Luke go this island linked to of origins of the Jedi anyways? We don't find out anything about that, just a bunch of lessons on how the Jedi Order was flawed, the past being irrelevant, the past needing to be erased. Why would he go here if he didn't want to be a Jedi anymore? It would make sense if he wanted to destroy all of it, but he didn't. Maybe he didn't want anybody else to get those books to revive the Jedi or Sith? Who knows.

    Maybe he just didn't have a plan to begin with. Maybe his mind wasn't completely set when he first left, then started getting more disgruntled with time. It's not like I don't think it couldn't have been done better.


    Some also say that Finn shouldn't have had more struggles with cowardice after everything that went on with that in The Force Awakens, although you could also argue that it's fine because it's specifically in regards to protecting Rey.

    He also knows too much for a maintenance grunt.

    Who is Snoke? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Ben? How did he convince Ben to turn to the Dark Side? Why does he want to start the First Order? Then there's stuff like Snoke reading Ben's thoughts yet somehow not noticing a lightsaber slowly spinning towards him by Ben, or Leia going all Superman in space when that really pushes what we're used to seeing from the Force's capabilities. That's kind of embarrassing.

    I'm fine not finding out everything in a movie, somehow. Especially since there's an entire team of animators who need to keep making money. So I'm definitely expecting some of the answers answered in the next animated series. It's a shitty policy, but it's the reality of today. And the animated shows tend to top movies easily at times, so that's a plus.

    Maybe Snoke didn't need to convince Ben much? Maybe his own rebellious nature inherited from his renegade pops coupled with his natural capacity for dark side made him unwilling to live a life of order an celibacy? It's not an easy life.

    Evidently, Snoke is not as good as he shows himself to be, otherwise he wouldn't look the way he does now. In the moment of his self absorbed triumph, he failed to read Kylo's intentions properly. Or is it that Kylo himself hasn't decided what to do until the last moment. Maybe he's better at hiding his intentions than he let to Snoke. We know how Sith play, after all. Might as well pick apart Vader throwing Palpatine in the pit. Palapatine should have noticed something was up. And don't force users read future? I can live with that. Especially since that scene was so suspenseful and my jaw literally dropped to the floor. Like, this movie's got guts. I like that.

    As for Leia's flight, again, it's like a force jump or a force pull in a vacuum with no resistance. And we've seen some examples of levitation or floating in both Clone Wars and Rebels, which are officially canon. Even Vader floated in the air for a while in Empire Strikes Back, during his duel with Luke.


    Who are the Knights of Ren? Are they the other students that Ben took with him after burning the Jedi Temple? Then why don't we see any of them in either of the two films thus far? Why did they follow Ben anyways on such seemingly late notice if Snoke only manipulated Ben?

    Part 9 or animation, probably. Sadly. I would like to have a more diverse cast of force users. Maybe they are in some other parts of the galaxy, doing... other stuff?


    Why is Rey so proficient in everything she tries her hand at for the first time if her bloodline isn't special?

    Anakin's bloodline wasn't special either.

    Besides, the whole parents thing might have been a red herring. Even if it isn't, it's fine for me.


    Why is there a cave that Luke feared the Dark Side coming from if it is just some mirror? All we get is that loose explanation of the dark being present alongside the light or whatever Luke said to sound cleverly philosophical. And to be fair, I like that the cave isn't some cliche malevolent place with demons and is something more metaphorical about insecurities or self-perception or whatever, but how does the Dark Side literally emanate from a mirror?

    Wouldn't kill them to drop a line or two about a dark jedi who died in that cave or something. One who is capable of appearing in spirit form like jedi, but unable to leave the cave for some reason. A new force ability gone wrong? Anything would have been fine. Not so sure why having someone reveal their own naked self through a mirror would be bad. A real jedi should be able to handle it, otherwise, what's the point of calling themselves one?

    Why does Yoda only show up now to talk sense into Luke instead of earlier? Is it because he thinks he will only have an effect on Luke after he meets somebody like Rey? Then why not say that?

    The timing was just perfect. Idk, some crap like "he wasn't ready before".

    16 characters and stuff.
    Last edited by Razh; December 19th, 2017 at 04:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  2. #1742
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    16 characters and stuff.
    Spoiler:

    We don't need to learn everything about Snoke. All I really needed was more elaboration on how he met Ben and maybe some insight on why he wanted to basically remake the Empire (something beyond just UNLIMITED POWER). Although having an inkling of how he knows the Dark Side would help too since all of the Sith should be dead, although it is possible for Force sensitive people to learn the Dark Side on their own, maybe.

    I never said that Vader picking up and throwing the Emperor was good either lol. It seems like masterminds in thrones with lots of Force powers need to be dumbed down by spontaneous convenience to meet their end.

    Anakin was still the chosen one that got birthed without a father into existence like Jesus and got trained as a Jedi Knight. Luke still trained for more than a single day, and lost to Vader.

    I like movies having guts, but you know what I like better? Guts with clever and consistent execution. But Star Wars is probably not the series to place those types of standards on.

    Spoiler:
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  3. #1743
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Spoiler:

    We don't need to learn everything about Snoke. All I really needed was more elaboration on how he met Ben and maybe some insight on why he wanted to basically remake the Empire (something beyond just UNLIMITED POWER). Although having an inkling of how he knows the Dark Side would help too since all of the Sith should be dead, although it is possible for Force sensitive people to learn the Dark Side on their own, maybe.

    I never said that Vader picking up and throwing the Emperor was good either lol. It seems like masterminds in thrones with lots of Force powers need to be dumbed down by spontaneous convenience to meet their end.

    Anakin was still the chosen one that got birthed without a father into existence like Jesus and got trained as a Jedi Knight. Luke still trained for more than a single day, and lost to Vader.

    I like movies having guts, but you know what I like better? Guts with clever and consistent execution. But Star Wars is probably not the series to place those types of standards on.
    Spoiler:
    Well, in light defense of Palapatine situation, Vader didn't decide until the last moment.

    Too bad Palpatine didn't have red ninjas with him then. Sorry, Red Guard. Another thing that was unaddressed. Those guys have been around since Palpatine became a chancellor. And then remained as his escort all throughout original trilogy. Why is Snoke so intent on mimicking Palpatine and his Empire? He even has his own Vader. From how he spoke, it was as if he actually knew Vader or something. So yeah, a lot of stuff is missing there.

    The universe is much richer than the trilogies can show in their 9 hours. I'm actually hoping they resolve some of the questions in an animated show rather than using up minutes from #9 to patch up the holes. But since Disney is intent on making #10, #11 and #12, all bets are off. From the money they seem to be raking with this last release, they hardly have a reason not to.
    Last edited by Razh; December 19th, 2017 at 04:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  4. #1744
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Spoiler:
    Well, in light defense of Palapatine situation, Vader didn't decide until the last moment.

    Too bad Palpatine didn't have red ninjas with him then. Sorry, Red Guard. Another thing that was unaddressed. Those guys have been around since Palpatine became a chancellor. And then remained as his escort all throughout original trilogy. Why is Snoke so intent on mimicking Palpatine and his Empire? He even has his own Vader. From how he spoke, it was as if he actually knew Vader or something. So yeah, a lot of stuff is missing there.

    The universe is much richer than the trilogies can show in their 9 hours. I'm actually hoping they resolve some of the questions in an animated show rather than using up minutes from #9 to patch up the holes. But since Disney is intent on making #10, #11 and #13, all bets are off. From the money they seem to be raking with this last release, they hardly have a reason not to.
    Spoiler:

    That's what I want to know too. What is with this guy's obsession with having his empi-Oh sorry, First Order mimic Palpatine's Galactic Empire so much?

    You can say that the universes are too rich to fully explore, but look at all of the complaints about Finn's side of the plot seeing like filler most of the time lol. Dedicate some of that random side quest stuff to exploring more of Snoke and Ben's relationship. Come to think of it, Snoke only shows up in, what, two scenes? Three if you count that hologram talk he had with Hux.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  5. #1745

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Spoiler:

    That's what I want to know too. What is with this guy's obsession with having his empi-Oh sorry, First Order mimic Palpatine's Galactic Empire so much?

    You can say that the universes are too rich to fully explore, but look at all of the complaints about Finn's side of the plot seeing like filler most of the time lol. Dedicate some of that random side quest stuff to exploring more of Snoke and Ben's relationship. Come to think of it, Snoke only shows up in, what, two scenes? Three if you count that hologram talk he had with Hux.
    Had it been a tv series, Finn's plot would have felt fine. As part of the movie, it feels like filler. It's weird.

    But the MovieBob clip above basically says it all and better than I can. Mostly its that the emotional payoff for the sequence was good but it was just a bit longer than it probably should have been.

  6. #1746
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Spoiler:

    I can agree about that. I didn't mind Finn's plot. Found it a bit enjoyable, I suppose. I'd definitely rewatch those scenes instead of any prequel film scenes not featuring Ian McDiarmid. But even so, I would have at least liked the whole "The Resistance profits off of war too" to go somewhere so the scenes felt meaningful. Instead, they were... eh. I liked seeing a casino world though, I guess. Although it's still no Mos Eisley or Cloud City.

    ...Honestly, my complaint isn't even that it's filler. I'm cool with "filler" as long as it's fun, and especially if it adds into characterization and development. But that if it was a tv series episode like you said, it would be the kind of episode you only remember for its PSA message and that's it lol.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  7. #1747

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Well if it had been a tv episode it would have been dedicated focus and worked fine. Rather than cutting back and forth inbetween other plots that may have been more interesting or seemed more relevant.

    But middle films in trilogies are hard to judge before you have the final product in hand. I think the movie was fine and it did what it wanted to do... but it wasn't super thrilling and exciting either. It's weird middle ground. I didn't like it or hate it. I'm just sort of left with "okay, that was Star Wars, yup."

  8. #1748
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    It would have worked in that sense, you're right.

    That was pretty much my opinion too. I like it as... "more Star Wars, but finally kind of different now". I was into all of the Rey and Luke/Ben scenes, at least. Even if I do have issues with Luke redundantly going all Obi-Wan and Yoda with the hermit shtick. I'd still like watching it if I saw it again, but I get where everyone's complaints are coming from and mostly agree. Even if we do need to wait for full payoff from the third film.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  9. #1749
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Spoiler:

    That's what I want to know too. What is with this guy's obsession with having his empi-Oh sorry, First Order mimic Palpatine's Galactic Empire so much?

    You can say that the universes are too rich to fully explore, but look at all of the complaints about Finn's side of the plot seeing like filler most of the time lol. Dedicate some of that random side quest stuff to exploring more of Snoke and Ben's relationship. Come to think of it, Snoke only shows up in, what, two scenes? Three if you count that hologram talk he had with Hux.
    Spoiler:
    I wonder how much thought was put into it. You know, I'd hate it if it was just superficially done in order to make Kylo seem more formidable as a dark lord. More interesting as a leading character. Snoke was powerful and he could definitely talk the talk, but in the end, he was just following Palpatine's beaten path. To the smallest details. In contrast to him, Kylo realizes he wants to forge his own destiny and set his own path, which suddenly turns him into someone you want to see more of.

    I sincerely hope they don't fuck up his character growth by turning him into a young Palpatine with his New New Order, doing the same old same old that the Empire did. But I'm having difficulties imagining it. There are number of ways in which this could branch out. Including the Order falling apart and having internal conflicts. Especially if those Knights of Ren are still a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  10. #1750

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    It would have worked in that sense, you're right.

    That was pretty much my opinion too. I like it as... "more Star Wars, but finally kind of different now". I was into all of the Rey and Luke/Ben scenes, at least. Even if I do have issues with Luke redundantly going all Obi-Wan and Yoda with the hermit shtick. I'd still like watching it if I saw it again, but I get where everyone's complaints are coming from and mostly agree. Even if we do need to wait for full payoff from the third film.
    I think most people were more invested in the Rei/Luke stuff... and thats inevitable purely based on the decades we've had with Luke. And that was just naturally going to work against everything else in the film.

    As for the payoff, it should be interesting because this film basically did all the things we were expecting in the final film, were it to follow old patterns. As long as there's not another death star in the next movie, we have NO idea where they're going, and that's interesting. And different, after 40 years of EU rehashing the same old things endlessly.

  11. #1751
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Eh, I'm not really into Luke turning into cynical self-exiled hermit because of mistakes no matter how realistic it is when one of the big points of his character in the original trilogy was proving Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong about the supposed impossibility of redeeming a space nazi dad who cut off his son's hand. So instead of feeling like poetic irony or coming full circle, it feels like redundant character regression of a story we've already seen for me. Sort of like building another Death Star under a different name after already seeing two or three of them blown up. It's not even like I'm against him becoming a bitter old man or changed from when we last saw him, just not executed where he's literally Obi-Wan and Yoda without saying anything new. Especially when one of the big emotional twists of this movie hinges on that. Although I did still like Luke for what he was regardless of what I would have preferred. That Force training gag was beautiful.

    But yeah, that is really interesting. This film sort of felt like two films or a whole trilogy in itself lol.
    Last edited by Count Mario; December 19th, 2017 at 05:57 AM.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  12. #1752

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    All in all, what Luke and Vader manage at the end of return of the Jedi is to save Luke's life and Anakin's soul. Did he stop them from firing at Lando or at Endor?
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  13. #1753

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    Yeah, pretty much this.

  14. #1754
    Pokémon Master brennen.exe's Avatar
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    @Everyone: I left the movie disappointed, ultimately, though I tried my best to keep expectations down. There was a lot I liked, some things I loved, but a lot of little things that bugged me. I'll see it again and probably enjoy it again, though.

    @Count Mario: I don't like responding to things in-line, so I'm spoilering the entire reply to make my life easier.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Then there's that weird lack of transition from Rey being blown back from Ben after the lightsaber explodes to showing up in the Millennium Falcon on the rebel not-Hoth planet. Did she take one of the transports to escape the chaos? How did she find out the Resistance was going to that planet? How did she find out exactly where they were on said planet? How did she get back in contact with the Millennium Falcon? I assumed that some of the latter questions can be answered by having Leia's tracking device, but aside from maybe one or two lines, we don't see any of this.
    All of these were actually covered in the film, so you probably just missed it. Hux told Ben when he woke up that Rey escaped and stole Snoke's personal ship. She found the Resistance and where they were on the planet by using the tracking device-- she even stated, "They should be right here, where are they??" at one point. Lastly, just before she dropped out of hyperspace in the Falcon she told Chewie to wait for her signal or something... I don't recall exactly, but more or less she told him she'd escape the ship and meet up with him, and to wait for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Then there's stuff like Snoke reading Ben's thoughts yet somehow not noticing a lightsaber slowly spinning towards him by Ben, or Leia going all Superman in space when that really pushes what we're used to seeing from the Force's capabilities. That's kind of embarrassing.
    For this one, the idea was that Ben allowed Snoke to read his thoughts in that moment, and organized his thoughts in a misleading way so that he could "turn on his lightsaber" and "kill his enemy"; so in a classic villain monologue "basking in my own glory" moment he misses the subtle turning of Rey's saber on himself. (Ben said in VII the blue one belongs to him). It does suspend disbelief a bit, but if you allow yourself to enjoy the moment of it then it works out OK. I was surprised they killed him in this movie, and am not sure how they will make Ben a credible villain for IX, but... we'll see I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Well, people debate about Luke's choices to go into exile and consider killing Ben preemptively (even if he only considered it for two seconds) to be inconsistent when this is the same guy who remained steadfast in redeeming Darth Vader even though the likes of Obi-Wan and Yoda said he was too far gone, "more machine than man". As well as not liking how Luke ends up becoming what Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up as when Luke's journey in Return of the Jedi was being countering their mistakes and decisions. Especially when, like you mentioned, Luke left behind a map for people to find him.
    Yeah I'm not thrilled with what they did with Luke's character. I suppose I always believed he had matured by the end of the first trilogy, even though yes he was tempted and even succumbed a bit during VI, and was always irritated with EU plot-lines that forced the whole "oops he fell to the darkside for a while". I'm burnt out on shows/movies making characters overly emotive or reactionary. Even worse, to me, was the fact that it was a big misunderstanding apparently? "I had a moment of weakness but then stopped... but Ben didn't know that I had stopped... so I left him alone to become a galactic terrorist." Sure, I get it, Ben was already corrupted and the darkness was growing in him, so naturally you just give up and become a hermit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Some also say that Finn shouldn't have had more struggles with cowardice after everything that went on with that in The Force Awakens, although you could also argue that it's fine because it's specifically in regards to protecting Rey.
    I think Finn's behavior at the start of the film was fine and in-line with his portrayal in VII. He didn't get over his fear of the First Order for the sake of the Alliance in VII, he got over his fear of it for Rey, and that was all he wanted to do in the beginning of VIII; find Rey and make sure she's safe. Rey and Finn had great chemistry (IMO), and their interactions and relationship in VII were a lot of fun, so when they doubled-down on that in this movie I was on board that ship. What I didn't like was the whole Rose romance thing-- it's a minor thing to be annoyed with, and their interactions were instructive for Finn to grow as a character, but the attempt at romance was just so sloppy I don't buy it for a second. Unrequited feelings, sure, but that's not what the ending scene portrayed with Rey looking at Finn looking at Rose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Why is Rey so proficient in everything she tries her hand at for the first time if her bloodline isn't special? Rey's parentage though? It might get expanded on. It might be proven wrong. But for all we know, it seems finished without any hints of being wrong or needing to be explored more.
    I've never really bought into this argument, personally, but I remember my friend reading the novelization of VII a few days after it came out in theaters and apparently the book expands on this a little more? It expands on a lot of things, apparently, but this was one of them, sort of. Rey says in VIII that she always felt the force but it was always dormant, and the book for VII apparently described her time living on Jakku as "training" of sorts, I guess? She spent all her life around advanced space tech, knew the in's and out's of ships and their parts (mechanic), and knew how to work them. She spent all her life protecting herself and defending herself from others who would steal from her, so she knew how to fight and use a weapon. Put this all together and when "the force awakens" in her she has all that she needs to be the perfect heroine. It's a bit contrived, but I was ok with it. Same as her beating Ben in VII, which to me was obviously because 1.) he was off balance from killing his dad (it made him weaker, not stronger) , 2.) he was shot by Chewie's bow which had been built up all movie as a devastating weapon, and 3.) he was trying to turn her, not kill her. I guess I can overlook that aspect of her... it never bothered me.

    Might as well note that I thought it was obvious prior to VIII that her parents were nobodies. I walked out of Force Awakens certain that her parents were just random people that left her behind because they sucked... that's the type of place Jakku was. I thought Maz made that point clear when she said that Rey knows deep down that they are never coming back. When I heard people argue that her parents might be Skywalkers, or Solos, or Windus, or whatever I didn't really understand it. Not the desire for her to come from a bloodline (don't we hate that stuff?) or the need to know more about her parents.

    Edit: One more thing! Ben/Kylo says in VII (while trying to read Rey's thoughts) that he could see her dreaming of a small island surrounded by an ocean. That obviously suggested that while she was living as a normal person on Jakku, she was having force visions of meeting Luke (at the end of the film).

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Why is there a cave that Luke feared the Dark Side coming from if it is just some mirror? And to be fair, I like that the cave isn't some cliche malevolent place with demons and is something more metaphorical about insecurities or self-perception or whatever, but how does the Dark Side literally emanate from a mirror? The most I can assume is that it's like the Dagobah illusions, but even then, it's lacking a bit for me.
    I think you are answering your own question here, that it's meant to be just like the cave on Dagobah. I agree though that the whole thing was sloppy, with Luke's concerns and her actions having no consequence or follow up. It was just... there.
    Last edited by brennen.exe; December 19th, 2017 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Man I should proof things more...

  15. #1755

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Okay, why the hell there are either people talking to this movie to be non-canon or that Kylo Ren is awesome?

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  16. #1756
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    Okay, why the hell there are either people talking to this movie to be non-canon or that Kylo Ren is awesome?
    Kylo Ren is a pretty awesome character, and Adam Driver plays the hell out of him.

    Might as well throw my hat into this “fight” as well:
    I loved the Canto Bight sequence. It felt new and fresh, adding to the iconography rather than rehashing it. It might go on a little too long, but the sequence is well told, and the simple fact of hanging out with new characters in fun situations in a new location was enough to satisfy me. And it was just fun (I realize the comedy has become a point of contention for this movie, but seeing as how I was positive towards the movie, I at least was quite susceptible to it. I found it frequently hilarious.)
    Spoiler:

    Also, in regards to the sequence being a “PSA” or “moralizing” or whatever: Good. Too often blockbusters feel wishy-washy or bland in their messaging, I like seeing Star Wars take a determined, progressive stance. Makes it feel more heartfelt, less like the corporate product that it is. Also, Canto Bight has truckloads of character and thematic relevance, and is worth it a thousand times over for that final shot. So good.


    Count, a few more comments to your pile, regarding some of the stuff others haven’t covered extensively. Not trying to convince you to the “right perspective”, obviously, just putting my own take out there.
    For the record, I consider myself to have a pretty strong attachment to the Original Trilogy. And what I was looking for was more great stories building on that iconography, that tone, that universe…something I found to an extent in the EU novels, for a time. I even dug the hell out of the New Jedi Order, because it felt like a progression rather than a retread. This all caused TFA to be a massive disappointment to me – Really, we’re doing this again? This is all Star Wars can be? - And also what caused me to like The Last Jedi. The foundation was still to similar to the Star Wars of old for my liking, but it actually managed to surprise me, most importantly through its surprising thematic heft. Seriously, when a movie feels assured of itself and its vision it makes me forgive a lot; I consider Speed Racer great for the same reason.

    Spoiler:


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario
    Well, people debate about Luke's choices to go into exile and consider killing Ben preemptively (even if he only considered it for two seconds) to be inconsistent when this is the same guy who remained steadfast in redeeming Darth Vader even though the likes of Obi-Wan and Yoda said he was too far gone, "more machine than man". As well as not liking how Luke ends up becoming what Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up as when Luke's journey in Return of the Jedi was being countering their mistakes and decisions. Especially when, like you mentioned, Luke left behind a map for people to find him.

    I get the let down/”betrayal” of Luke getting a downer ending rather than Jedi Academy Headmaster Luke, but it worked for me based on several factors: A) The real life/fictional jump of 40 years makes such change go down easier. B) ROTJ had previously shown Luke to be prone to impulsiveness; All it takes is light goading from Vader to make Luke to absolutely postal on him, pacifist approach be damned. I can buy a flaw like that lingering, especially considering C) I got the impression Snoke was egging the process along, and only needed a single instance of weakness from Luke D)Mark Hamill sells the hell out of it, goddamn.
    The map makes no sense, but I hated that aspect of TFA, so I let it slide in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario
    Who is Snoke? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Ben? How did he convince Ben to turn to the Dark Side? Why does he want to start the First Order? Then there's stuff like Snoke reading Ben's thoughts yet somehow not noticing a lightsaber slowly spinning towards him by Ben, or Leia going all Superman in space when that really pushes what we're used to seeing from the Force's capabilities. That's kind of embarrassing.

    I too wish we were given more detail on Snoke given the new trilogys status as sequels, but I place the fault of that squarely on TFA, which couldn’t be bothered to establish much of anything. And while the details on him and his turning of Ben are needlessly vague, the first movie never establishes him as some mystery to be cracked- in story, theres no characters going “who is this guy? Where did he come from? Whats his deal?”. Any elaboration on him would be purely for the benefit for us viewers, and run the risk of feeling inorganic. I wish he was more fleshed out, but I don’t begrudge TLJ for looking at the shit hand it was delt and going “…yeah, I don’t have time to clean up this mess, I’ll just address what I need to tell a complete a story as possible”.
    And Snokes backstory was simply not essential to the telling of TLJ’s story.
    Also, Leia force-pulling herself to safety was cool as balls. My entire theatre were “oooh” ing. Just putting that out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario
    Who are the Knights of Ren? Are they the other students that Ben took with him after burning the Jedi Temple? Then why don't we see any of them in either of the two films thus far? Why did they follow Ben anyways on such seemingly late notice if Snoke only manipulated Ben?
    Have the Knights of Ren ever been mentioned by name the actual movies? Did TFA ascribe any significance to them beyond a split second montage image? I could be wrong honestly don’t think so. The Knights of Ren are only significant insofar as the hype/speculation game has made them. They were a product of the ad-libbed JJ/TFA mystery box hype machine that never got capitalized on, so I don’t feel TLJ was obligated to follow up on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario
    Why is Rey so proficient in everything she tries her hand at for the first time if her bloodline isn't special?
    Meta answer: because shes the first main female protagonist in the series
    Story Answer: Because she just is. Because fuck hereditary Chosen One-ness. Rey is a force prodigy for the same reason Remy is a cooking prodigy despite not even being Gusteau reincarnated in rat form. And for the same reason a random stableboy can casually use force telekinesis, showing innate force skill beyond any character in the series to date. You can argue that “that’s not how Star Wars used to work”, but frankly, I much prefer the shift from Destinity Genetics towards The Force is For Everyone. You don’t need to be a Skywalker/Obi Wan/Whatever spawn to be a hero, you can be some rando with no important ancestors whatsoever. Incidentally, the entire Canto Bight sequence was worth it for that meta/thematic payoff alone.
    Star Wars is more than Skywalkers. Finally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario
    The talk about payoff if subjective, although I agree with others that this movie is underwhelming and lacking much direction for a lot of its subversion outside of just meta commentary about worshipping the original trilogy. But everything I listed above are basic questions that should have been explored, and we have no idea if they can or will be explored in the final film. So I guess we have to rely on spinoff pseudo-canon novels, comics, and cartoons then.

    I thought it was quite clever how the Meta Commentary of OT worship was woven into a commentary on hero worship and failing teachers in general, as a subheader to the general theme of learning from failure. Lukes arc is about him coming to terms with his failures and his status as a legend, the first scene with Rose has her instantly disillusioned with Finn, Ren rejects both his mentors who saw him as a potential/wanted him to be a new Vader. But the story is also about taking the positives from the past, and of the sowing of hope- hope that can be instilled by the legends of the past, but need not be directly connected to it. At all levels, it’s a story about moving on.

  17. #1757

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Spoiler:
    Yes, the everyone-can-fail-theme is cool and all, but why does it have to end with the last remnants of the rebellion fitting onboard the mofoMilleniumFalcon? What fanboy thought that this is a good idea? It felt sooo forced.

    It's TFA all over again (which I liked). Constantly referencing the previous movie (EpV/VI this time), with all stakes up the ante. At least, what happened in Empire was quite believable (Lukes decision, Vader in Bespin, etc.). I doubt that the funny stuff that happened in this movie ever will be.
    "Often I think about my many comrades fallen by my side. I heard their curses against the war and its authors, the revolt against their murder. And I, as a survivor, believe that I am inspired by their will to struggle, for the idea of peace and human fraternity."
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  18. #1758
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Spoiler:




    Meta answer: because shes the first main female protagonist in the series
    Story Answer: Because she just is. Because fuck hereditary Chosen One-ness. Rey is a force prodigy for the same reason Remy is a cooking prodigy despite not even being Gusteau reincarnated in rat form. And for the same reason a random stableboy can casually use force telekinesis, showing innate force skill beyond any character in the series to date. You can argue that “that’s not how Star Wars used to work”, but frankly, I much prefer the shift from Destinity Genetics towards The Force is For Everyone. You don’t need to be a Skywalker/Obi Wan/Whatever spawn to be a hero, you can be some rando with no important ancestors whatsoever. Incidentally, the entire Canto Bight sequence was worth it for that meta/thematic payoff alone.
    Star Wars is more than Skywalkers. Finally.

    I personally think that's missing the point. That Rey is so naturally strong in the force isn't a big deal. She's the main protagonist, so yeah, we expect that. I don't think it's a problem that she's so strong and a "nobody" either, or that she's good as a mechanic or flying ships. It's the amalgamation of all of it together. She's the strongest in the force while also being immediately great with a lightsaber, and a better pilot than Han Solo. What?

    I think for those of us who have issues with her lightsaber mastery, it'll probably never change because if as Brennen mentioned, one can be convinced that her bo staff training prepared her, than we're on a different page altogether. I've always understood lightsabers to be uniquely difficult to use proficiently. Not sure if this is old EU or canon, though. Even if it is old EU, the difference between her training and Luke's or even Anakin's is what's so jarring. She's positioned as better with a saber than freaking Kylo Ren. Not just from the first film, but because she's the one that saves him in this second one after disposing of her guards more quickly. Is there really anything that can give credence to this when she wasn't trained at all to use a lightsaber, only a bo staff, while he was trained by Luke and Snoke? I'm not sure if the answer can be "because shes the first main female protagonist in the series" and be satisfying to a large section of people, when all could be well if she was... trained? Would a one week timejump and that much training, even begrudgingly, from Luke really be too much to ask for?

    Because all in all, we're not really dealing with the issue of inheritance as a measure of ability. We're dealing with randoms not just being powerful in the force, which is fine, (sheev) but randoms being proficient in everything just to one-up the past. I guess it's partly the thesis of it all; forgetting the past. I'm not so sure I'm ready to let it all go, especially in a series that was labeled as a continuation of the Skywalker saga, before the first came out. I think most of the fans with complaints aren't either. I'm also aware how that'll sound after the reaction that TFA received, but there has to be some happy medium.

    One last thing. The hints of any type of development toward competency, not devotion, but competency, we thought we'd get for Finn in this film will make me always hate everything about the casino scenes, even if that kid becomes the next coming of Obi Wan. I was invested in his journey and so ready for him to do something cool after the bait and switch of TFA's marketing and this was all proof to me that he'll probably be relegated to comic relief till the end. Not quite a boon for black male representation that I was hoping for, but, I guess we'll always have... Falcon..

  19. #1759

    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Well, people debate about Luke's choices to go into exile and consider killing Ben preemptively (even if he only considered it for two seconds) to be inconsistent when this is the same guy who remained steadfast in redeeming Darth Vader even though the likes of Obi-Wan and Yoda said he was too far gone, "more machine than man".
    How long has it been since you saw RotJ? After Vader takes Luke to the Emperor, the emperor spends the entire "fight" taunting Luke to give into his anger and his "Journey to the Dark Side will be complete". He gives into his anger TWICE.

    He tries to strike down the Emperor, only to be blocked by Vader, and then when Vader taunts him about Leia he goes berserk and attacks Vader, only stopping when he slices off his hand and that shocks him out of it.

    So yeah, this isn't the same guy who "Remained Steadfast" in redeeming Darth Vader, this is the guy who snapped and gave into his anger and fear twice before finally getting it together at the end to redeem his father.

    So yeah, not inconsistent at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    As well as not liking how Luke ends up becoming what Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up as when Luke's journey in Return of the Jedi was being countering their mistakes and decisions. Especially when, like you mentioned, Luke left behind a map for people to find him.
    That's not how it went. Nobody ever said Luke left the map.

    Admittedly, this is a failure of TFA and not TLJ, the novelization of TFA clears this up IIRC.

    He was going to the first Jedi Temple. Leia knew where he was going but not how to get there, which is how Luke wanted it. The Map wasn't a map to Luke that he left them it was a Map to the First Jedi Temple. The only reason it was a "Map to Luke Skywalker" was because they knew he was there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Why did Luke go this island linked to of origins of the Jedi anyways? We don't find out anything about that, just a bunch of lessons on how the Jedi Order was flawed, the past being irrelevant, the past needing to be erased. Why would he go here if he didn't want to be a Jedi anymore? It would make sense if he wanted to destroy all of it, but he didn't. Maybe he didn't want anybody else to get those books to revive the Jedi or Sith? Who knows.
    From the way he talks about the Jedi order in TLJ, I assume when he went there he wasn't as jaded as he would become later. He read up, learned about the failures of the Jedi order and got more jaded



    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Some also say that Finn shouldn't have had more struggles with cowardice after everything that went on with that in The Force Awakens, although you could also argue that it's fine because it's specifically in regards to protecting Rey.
    I never got cowardace from Finn in the beginning of TLJ. He didn't want to leave to get away from The First Order, but just like he was in the latter half of TFA, he cares about Rey first, the Resistance second. He looked at the situation and thought there was a chance they would be destroyed, so that "Rey first" mentality kicked in and he wanted to get the Beacon she was going to follow far away from this so she didn't come back right into the hands of the First Order.

    I got this impression because the second an alternative was presented to save the Resistance and thus accomplish both goals, he was immediately on board without issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Who is Snoke? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Ben? How did he convince Ben to turn to the Dark Side? Why does he want to start the First Order?
    Ok, answer the following question using ONLY information in Episodes 4-6. So NO EU or Prequel information at all.

    Who is Palpatine? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Anakin? How did he convince Anakin to turn to the Dark Side? Why did he want to start the Empire?

    Are we now saying that Empire and Jedi were bad films because they didn't tell us any of this? The Force Awakens doesn't telegraph any of this stuff being a big mystery we need answered either. Everyone just already knows who Snoke is at the start of the movie.

    Plus, Kylo Ren is our new Big Bad and he's not making his own thing, he's taking over the First Order. A lot of these questions DO remain relevant going into Episode IX. We may still get answers to some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Then there's stuff like Snoke reading Ben's thoughts yet somehow not noticing a lightsaber slowly spinning towards him by Ben, or Leia going all Superman in space when that really pushes what we're used to seeing from the Force's capabilities. That's kind of embarrassing.
    The Ren lightsaber thing I thought was clever. He was doing the same thing in his hands as if he was about to kill Rey as he was with the saber next to Snoke to trick him.

    For the life of me I don't understand why people hate the Leia thing. She didn't use the force to fly or anything, she was in the vaccum of space floating. It doesn't take much effort or energy at that point to move when there's no gravity. All she had to do was use basic force pull on anything stationary in the ship and it would gently pull her in like it did. If she'd Blown the door open when she got in there and then sucked it up and went "Ok cool, let's make the next plan!" that would have been a little much, but what we got wasn't weird at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Who are the Knights of Ren? Are they the other students that Ben took with him after burning the Jedi Temple? Then why don't we see any of them in either of the two films thus far? Why did they follow Ben anyways on such seemingly late notice if Snoke only manipulated Ben?
    Again, with Ren now being the main antagonist of IX, this would be an excellt thing to bring up there. This movie didn't need to answer this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Why is Rey so proficient in everything she tries her hand at for the first time if her bloodline isn't special?
    What special bloodline did Mace Windu have? What about Yoda? What was his special Bloodline? Obi Wan? What awesome parents did he have?

    Before the fall of the Republic, the Jedi were barred from having spouses or kids. They never bred before. How did they get Force users before? Finding random, semingly insignificant people who are force sensitive and training them. Rey is basically just one of those.

    As to why she is as powerful as she is. Snoke answered this. The Force is a living thing, that's why it's often called "The Living Force". It can take action itself to help if there is an imbalance. That's why Anakin was virgin birthed.

    Rey being as powerful as she is is the force's attempt to Self-correct since Kylor Ren and Snoke have tipped the balance to the Dark. Snoke flat out says this at one point.

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  20. #1760
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    Default Re: Star Wars Universe

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Well, people debate about Luke's choices to go into exile and consider killing Ben preemptively (even if he only considered it for two seconds) to be inconsistent when this is the same guy who remained steadfast in redeeming Darth Vader even though the likes of Obi-Wan and Yoda said he was too far gone, "more machine than man". As well as not liking how Luke ends up becoming what Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up as when Luke's journey in Return of the Jedi was being countering their mistakes and decisions. Especially when, like you mentioned, Luke left behind a map for people to find him.
    Luke successfully redeemed Vader in their first encounter after their first duel, after reconciling Vader's revelation with Kenobi's POV truth. He became a hero after everything was said and done and you can bet it filled him with a lot of self-confidence. Though I would say and you'd probably agree that maybe the movie could have tackled this better and not left as much to other sources, I don't believe Ben was instantly turned. Snoke influenced him over a period of time, and Luke tried to correct his course, but was unsuccessful. Realizing he's falling short of his "hero" moment must hurt pretty badly and his botched assassination attempt just put the icing on the cake. Luke fell hard after previously being defined by his success and that's what Yoda gets at in their discussion. I hope we see more of Ren's past in IX to look into how irredeemable he is.

    Some also say that Finn shouldn't have had more struggles with cowardice after everything that went on with that in The Force Awakens, although you could also argue that it's fine because it's specifically in regards to protecting Rey.
    I'm totally fine with this; Finn explicitly stated in the last act of TFA that he only went on Starkiller Base to save Rey and that got a bit of a wtf reaction from Han. His motivation early in this film fit with that.

    Who is Snoke? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Ben? How did he convince Ben to turn to the Dark Side? Why does he want to start the First Order? Then there's stuff like Snoke reading Ben's thoughts yet somehow not noticing a lightsaber slowly spinning towards him by Ben, or Leia going all Superman in space when that really pushes what we're used to seeing from the Force's capabilities. That's kind of embarrassing.
    I don't consider Snoke's role in this film a plothole because he was essentially an open book in TFA. Someone who more or less just resembled a shallow copy of the emperor; he had no known ulterior motives and seemed to be doing just typical dark side stuff for the unlimited powah. So him getting killed was certainly unexpected and subverted a lot of fan expectations, but it didn't really cut short any character progression he might have had since he didn't have any to begin with. I do agree that I'd definitely like to learn more about him in the next film, specifically how he lead Kylo astray and how he came into power to begin with, but I think his role in the film worked well since TFA left his future actions an open book.

    Who are the Knights of Ren? Are they the other students that Ben took with him after burning the Jedi Temple? Then why don't we see any of them in either of the two films thus far? Why did they follow Ben anyways on such seemingly late notice if Snoke only manipulated Ben?
    That's more of a complaint about the series as a trilogy so far, and one that I'd say applies more to TFA than TLJ because TLJ mainly focused on Ren's personal training under Snoke. Given Ben's heritage, he was probably a pretty big shot among Luke's other pupils and so it would definitely make sense for some to follow him under a group leader mentality.

    Why is Rey so proficient in everything she tries her hand at for the first time if her bloodline isn't special?
    Because the point of the movie is that you don't have to have a special bloodline for the Force to awaken in you.

    Why is there a cave that Luke feared the Dark Side coming from if it is just some mirror? All we get is that loose explanation of the dark being present alongside the light or whatever Luke said to sound cleverly philosophical. And to be fair, I like that the cave isn't some cliche malevolent place with demons and is something more metaphorical about insecurities or self-perception or whatever, but how does the Dark Side literally emanate from a mirror? The most I can assume is that it's like the Dagobah illusions, but even then, it's lacking a bit for me.
    I never really cared for that part of the movie either but that's filed under standalone story beats rather than bigger scope problems.

    Why does Yoda only show up now to talk sense into Luke instead of earlier? Is it because he thinks he will only have an effect on Luke after he meets somebody like Rey? Then why not say that?
    It would make sense for Luke not to be able to communicate with Force ghosts if he's turned his back on the Force.

    Then there's that weird lack of transition from Rey being blown back from Ben after the lightsaber explodes to showing up in the Millennium Falcon on the rebel not-Hoth planet. Did she take one of the transports to escape the chaos? How did she find out the Resistance was going to that planet? How did she find out exactly where they were on said planet? How did she get back in contact with the Millennium Falcon? I assumed that some of the latter questions can be answered by having Leia's tracking device, but aside from maybe one or two lines, we don't see any of this.
    It was stated that she had taken Snoke's escape vessel. Given that she got to the Supremacy on the Falcon, I'm not surprised that she was able to arrange for the Falcon to return. As for finding the Resistance, I would presume that she just followed their trail and found the planet with the help of Leia's tracking device. Maybe a few too many connect the dots for your liking, but it can be pretty easily explained.

    The talk about payoff if subjective, although I agree with others that this movie is underwhelming and lacking much direction for a lot of its subversion outside of just meta commentary about worshipping the original trilogy. But everything I listed above are basic questions that should have been explored, and we have no idea if they can or will be explored in the final film. So I guess we have to rely on spinoff pseudo-canon novels, comics, and cartoons then.

    You can only give so much of a benefit of the doubt to a sequel answering questions. And even if it does, that doesn't mean the preceding film is good if it looks like it's making things up and taking shortcuts at the expense of its quality as an individual installment. If questions or subversions are still coming, you need to leave some breadcrumbs on the trail.
    So I guess we'll agree to differ on whether or not the breadcrumbs are still there. Yes, the potential for how Rey's parentage and Snoke's legacy could factor into the third film is murkier than Luke's parentage and Han's legacy in the original trilogy, but beyond the obvious of having to reconcile Obi-Wan's story and get some kind of indication on Han's ultimate fate, who could have honestly said where those plotlines would have gone in the next film? They could have been quickly resolved or turned into the main parts of the movie - thankfully it's the latter, and for the most part it did a good job. You yourself said that you didn't like how little the reveal about Rey's parentage influenced her for the rest of the movie, but who says it can't impact her in the next one? Luke's reaction to Vader's reveal was rather simple - just getting emotional and escaping, in addition to the brief mental connection the two shared at the end which didn't really indicate anything other than Luke's acceptance of the fact. Where Luke went with that was addressed in the next movie. That's why I'm less inclined to think all is said and done here. Plus Snoke's death sends Kylo going full steam ahead into the finale, so that's a lot of immediate potential right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Might as well throw my hat into this “fight” as well:
    I loved the Canto Bight sequence. It felt new and fresh, adding to the iconography rather than rehashing it. It might go on a little too long, but the sequence is well told, and the simple fact of hanging out with new characters in fun situations in a new location was enough to satisfy me. And it was just fun (I realize the comedy has become a point of contention for this movie, but seeing as how I was positive towards the movie, I at least was quite susceptible to it. I found it frequently hilarious.)
    Spoiler:

    Also, in regards to the sequence being a “PSA” or “moralizing” or whatever: Good. Too often blockbusters feel wishy-washy or bland in their messaging, I like seeing Star Wars take a determined, progressive stance. Makes it feel more heartfelt, less like the corporate product that it is. Also, Canto Bight has truckloads of character and thematic relevance, and is worth it a thousand times over for that final shot. So good.
    This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the sequence as well. I can agree with the basic detractions that it's too long and its atmosphere is a bit jarring compared to the ones in the rest of the film. But given how it developed Finn's character, established Rose's, showed the First Order's pitfalls beyond its simple antagonism, looked stunning and was ultimately engaging even though its role might be questionable, its strengths outnumber its weaknesses for me. It reminded me a lot of Han and Leia camping out in the Sea Slug in Episode 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    Yes, the everyone-can-fail-theme is cool and all, but why does it have to end with the last remnants of the rebellion fitting onboard the mofoMilleniumFalcon? What fanboy thought that this is a good idea? It felt sooo forced.
    Why is that a problem when the Falcon's been a frequent presence in this trilogy? Rey has unofficially inherited the Falcon and she came to rescue the Resistance, thus they're on the Falcon. That's basic plot consistency.



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