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Thread: Disney animation thread

  1. #6441

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    I don't know about this. I mean, has getting the nationality exactly right ever been a matter of much importance? Europeans have played Americans and vice versa, people from one European country have played characters hailing from another, the list goes on and on. Jasmine's actress has the appearance of someone who would be a believable Arabian native - you do realize she's inherently trying to be something she's not, since that's what acting is. Not to mention that Will Smith is African-American - does it make a difference that he's only voicing a CGI character?
    Cast Mulan using a Japanese or Korean actress, and sit back and watch the shit hit the fan. Disney wouldn't dare do it.

    And nationality does matter. Given the highly racist & discriminatory manner in which Arabs have been portrayed in Hollywood for decades, this very much matters. This was a chance to cast an Arab leading lady to play such an iconic Disney princess, and of course as to be expected they couldn't even be bothered to do that. There is no shortage of people when it comes to playing terrorist #1,2 & 3 but they apparently have great difficulty casting the main 2 for this role, and i pray to God the Jafar casting rumour was just a rumour.
    Will Smith is just doing a voice, that doesn't really matter so much.

    That being said, i still hope they do a good job with it. I'd still prolly see it just because Will Smith is in it, cuz i've always been a big fan of his.

  2. #6442
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    The genie being a fantastical creature can be played by pretty much any type. Same reason Mushu was able to be played by a black comedian in the Chinese story.

  3. #6443

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    The genie being a fantastical creature can be played by pretty much any type. Same reason Mushu was able to be played by a black comedian in the Chinese story.

    Some people are too dumb to get this fact. As if saying "Will Smith isn't a blue guy, hence he shouldn't play Genie" as if that is remotely comparable to them casting someone not even remotely Middle Eastern/Arab for the role. The whole casting process was flawed from the start. Arab or Indian. Clearly the 2 are interchangeable. Hell they might as well have thrown Latino actors into the mix since they could pass for being from that region..

    They won't dare try anything like this for casting Mulan thats for sure.

  4. #6444

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LightningAce View Post
    Cast Mulan using a Japanese or Korean actress, and sit back and watch the shit hit the fan. Disney wouldn't dare do it.
    The reason that would cause a shitstorm is...

    1. Japanese: Chinese people have a huge nationalist hate boner against Japan. It would be like casting Hercules using Turkish actors and watching the Greeks lose their shit.
    2. Korea: China is also a pretty racist place where non-Chinese Asians are seen as below the standard. So a simple Korean could never fill the shoes of the glorious Han of the Middle Kingdom.

    I don't think those are the sort of reasons you had in mind though when you made that sentence.


    And nationality does matter. Given the highly racist & discriminatory manner in which Arabs have been portrayed in Hollywood for decades, this very much matters.
    The plot and depiction of a fantasy Arab country/culture is the side where that is in effect, the exact national origin of a person cast in the role not so much. Unless they do not actually look plausibly Arab.
    They could easily cast Arab actors for every single role, and then still have a movie that depicts a shitload of negative stereotypes. Because the casting ain't the real main issue.

    Also seriously? Now it's literally a matter of it being an Arab? Not even just Middle Eastern? A Turk, Persian, Armenian, or even Berber wouldn't make the cut? The ethnicity, a cultural not even regional identity, is what matters?

    This was a chance to cast an Arab leading lady to play such an iconic Disney princess, and of course as to be expected they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
    Instead the role goes once again to the white power structure of Gujarat.
    There is no shortage of people when it comes to playing terrorist #1,2 & 3


    I'm willing to bet any given example of a movie or tv show where there are terrorists 1, 2 and 3, are not cast specifically as Arabs either.
    Where once again the problem is not the casting, but the constant endless media portrayal of Middle Easterner fictional characters as terrorists, or secondarily involved in terrorist plots.
    Are you saying you'd be fine with all the terrorist Arab characterization if they were cast with Armenians or Turks?

    Will Smith is just doing a voice, that doesn't really matter so much.
    So wait...is the issue the casting? Or the way they look in the role. Because this is conflicting with the rest of your post.

  5. #6445
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    The reason that would cause a shitstorm is...

    1. Japanese: Chinese people have a huge nationalist hate boner against Japan. It would be like casting Hercules using Turkish actors and watching the Greeks lose their shit.
    To be fair, they have a very good reason for that hate boner.

  6. #6446

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LightningAce View Post
    as if that is remotely comparable to them casting someone not even remotely Middle Eastern/Arab for the role.
    And I repeat. From Portugal/Morocco over to Northwestern India, people share a litany of general similar appearances.
    The idea that Northwestern Indians/Pakistanis look alien to Middle Easterners is a fantasy you've imagined in your head. Some of them yes, plenty of them no. And even the yes ones aren't all that different.
    You seem to have inflated old orientalist tropes of carelessly confusing cultures, with literally the people belonging to the cultures being unmistakably physically unique.
    Many Southern Europeans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, Southern Central Asians, and Northwestern South Asians could look like siblings no problem.

    Take this dude from Barcelona, dress him up like a Sikh with a nice regional style of mustache, and set him loose in Amritsar and the locals wouldn't look twice.
    Take Vladimir Putin, dress him up as an English Aristocrat hunter in red jacket and black hat, and plop him down in a fox hunt and no one would notice. Call him Lord Pootlesworth.

    The whole casting process was flawed from the start. Arab or Indian. Clearly the 2 are interchangeable.
    Essentially....yup!
    You could cast Italian mobsters with Arabs real easy too, and vice versa. Tell me Al Pacino or Ray Romano wouldn't do just fine playing Arabs looks wise. Hell Ray Romano could play Indian characters, if I could believe for two seconds that he could pull off an authentic accent with that goofy voice of his anyway.
    And of course no one was like "Robert De Niro??? A Jewish dude???" when Once Upon a Time in America came out.
    Or some Latinos work fine as Italians too, Andy Garcia kind of made his whole career on that. That Greek guy Ziggy shot in the Wire was played by a Latino dude, coulda fooled me!

    This kind of seems wonderful, y'know, expanding the boundaries that browner or more angular featured actors can play, Indian actors don't have to sit around waiting for Indian roles, Arab actors don't have to sit around waiting for Arab roles, they have this big ol' geographical belt of peoples (including the occasionally plausible Latin American) they can play and realistically look the part.
    Same with East Asians, how you gonna tell a Korean actor he can't be the innumerable Chinese or Japanese characters that pop up, and has to wait for a movie set in Korea. I mean come on now.
    Are you going to do the same thing with white people? Sorry Sean Connery, the Rob Roy remake is canceled, and we just can't have you playing a French cardinal or Russian mobster or whatever. Gotta wait for more Scottish stuff.

    Hell they might as well have thrown Latino actors into the mix since they could pass for being from that region..
    Sure! Or is this sarcasm and you don't think some Latinos can? Because yeah, they can. And vice versa.
    When we finally get some of my in-laws over to visit the US I can assure you when out and about some of them might be approached with Spanish in the mall. Especially the wife of my oldest brother in-law, she's got a bit of African blood in her Levantine Greekness already. So she looks super Puerto Rican. She will confuse so many people lol.

    Its fun LightningAce! The beautiful mish mash of phenotypes and assumptions we take along with it. Like how even though my wife is Levantine Greek, she is 1/4 English and has blue eyes, freckles, and pale skin, so even in her home country people come up to her speaking English sometimes. And how even though I'm 3/4 British Isles, my lack of blue eyes and 1/4 Italianess has caused no strangers in her country to speak English to me.
    How somehow both of us walking the streets of the historical area of Istanbul, we got passed up by the tout giving tourists brochures, since apparently we looked enough like a young Turkish couple I guess.

    You realize most of the issues facing Middle Easterners are less overtly racial right? Loads of Middle Easterners would waltz right through the door of whiteness if not for the whole Muslim thing. Southern Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians, Israelis, Georgians etc. Average Americans don't hesitate to count them as white, and (most of) their countries as European.
    But ask about Turks, Muslim Arabs, Persians, Afghans etc. And nope! White?? Heck no! Bubba Joe America would sooner call a Japanese dude white than a damn dirty Mooselimb!!11!

    They won't dare try anything like this for casting Mulan thats for sure.


    Because mainland China is a massively ethno-supremacist and xenophobic country which commands economic buying power in ticket sales, with a government that bans movies at will. So you're probably right for totally different reasons than you mean.


    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    To be fair, they have a very good reason for that hate boner.
    They do, but fundamentally taking it out on casting (of what would probably be a Japanese-American) to begin with we both can agree is damn silly and unfair.

  7. #6447

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Guess you can count me as one of those people who still buy into Andy Garcia being an Italian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284




  8. #6448

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    I was even relatively ok with the Rock playing Hercules, I mean his Pacific Islander looks don't really match up all the way to Greek, but it's closer than Aryan McBlonderson they cast in that other Hercules movie that year lol.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Just so we're clear here, if canonically Agrabah is around the Jordan river...

    Naomi Scott.

    Visual sampler of the following female Levantine folks
    Lebanese women.
    Palestinian women.
    Jordanian women.
    Israeli women (more mixed with European aspects but nevertheless).
    Cypriot women.
    Syrian women.

    The queen of Jordan, of Palestinian background is this woman.

    Honestly...dude. Your heart is in the right place, but to stand against racism and the ignorance that powers it, you have to be darn sure you aren't being ignorant in your own right to begin with.
    Racism by good intentions is a thing. And this sort of argument is only so many steps removed from telling a literal Arab born and raised to their face that they aren't Arab enough looking, and then the racism is coming from inside the house if you follow.

    Also seriously, "Arab" is a cultural identity, not a racial one. And an identity that spans one the hugest geographical spans of any ethnicity in the world.
    There are straight up black Arabs, Wesley Snipes black. Take a flight to Khartoum and see it yourself.

  9. #6449

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    I was even relatively ok with the Rock playing Hercules, I mean his Pacific Islander looks don't really match up all the way to Greek, but it's closer than Aryan McBlonderson they cast in that other Hercules movie that year lol.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Just so we're clear here, if canonically Agrabah is around the Jordan river...

    Naomi Scott.

    Visual sampler of the following female Levantine folks
    Lebanese women.
    Palestinian women.
    Jordanian women.
    Israeli women (more mixed with European aspects but nevertheless).
    Cypriot women.
    Syrian women.

    The queen of Jordan, of Palestinian background is this woman.

    Honestly...dude. Your heart is in the right place, but to stand against racism and the ignorance that powers it, you have to be darn sure you aren't being ignorant in your own right to begin with.
    Racism by good intentions is a thing. And this sort of argument is only so many steps removed from telling a literal Arab born and raised to their face that they aren't Arab enough looking, and then the racism is coming from inside the house if you follow.

    Also seriously, "Arab" is a cultural identity, not a racial one. And an identity that spans one the hugest geographical spans of any ethnicity in the world.
    There are straight up black Arabs, Wesley Snipes black. Take a flight to Khartoum and see it yourself.
    I prolly wasn't very clear. This isn't about skin colour or her not being brown enough or too white or that she couldn't pass for an Middle Eastern Arab woman.
    Disney said they'd be true to the characters and their origins i.e Middle Eastern Arab. They need to be held at their word, but yet again they clearly lied about that.

    Take Moana. They only needed voice actors, yet they specifically wanted people of Polynesian descent to VOICE the characters. Anyone could done it, but they wanted to be authentic.

    Indian is not Arab. In appearance there might not be much difference but from all the comments out there, especially from Arabs, they are majorly pissed off. Brown people are not interchangeable. Casting someone of Arab descent is not asking too much
    if they claim they're not going to be whitewashing and will do it justice, then cast the right people for it. And as i've said already they may as well have just cast some one that was neither Arab nor Indian but could pass for it for her role if this is what they were going to do.

    A part of me wants this casting controversy to carry on, and i want this movie to fail badly. Petty yes, but frankly, I'm tired and angry about this whole situation. I've seen this happen 1 too many times, and its part of a much bigger picture. They simply don't care that they're doing it, over & over again. If you're an Arab you might as well be at the bottom of the casting barrel.
    Last edited by LightningAce; July 19th, 2017 at 12:21 AM.

  10. #6450

    Default Re: Disney animation thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LightningAce View Post
    I prolly wasn't very clear. This isn't about skin colour or her not being brown enough or too white or that she couldn't pass for an Middle Eastern Arab woman.
    Disney said they'd be true to the characters and their origins i.e Middle Eastern Arab. They need to be held at their word, but yet again they clearly lied about that.
    It's kind of a dumb word though. Or was that actually about casting someone who looked the part, and not the "only exists on internet echo chambers" issue of casting by literal origin.

    Take Moana. They only needed voice actors, yet they specifically wanted people of Polynesian descent to VOICE the characters. Anyone could done it, but they wanted to be authentic.
    What part exactly is the authentic part? It's a nice gesture, but what is authentic. Did they give cultural script advice?

    Indian is not Arab. In appearance there might not be much difference but from all the comments out there, especially from Arabs, they are majorly pissed off.
    Are these comments on twitter, or are you actually getting some kind of glimpse in the real world of actual anger.
    Most of the articles I saw had tweets, and most of those tweets were from outraged white people.
    In either case none of this changes the fact that literal casting by origin is dumb. Especially especially in fantasy settings. Some super realistic slice of regional life thing? There starts being some value in the argument there. But yeah, that sure as crap isn't Aladdin.

    And I once again bring up the fact that literal casting only fucks over Arab actors, not helps them.

    Brown people are not interchangeable.
    This is a very empty meaningless bit of sloganeering people are casting around, and one you're carting out entirely ignoring everything I posted about how yeah sorry the world is more physically similar across large spaces than it is different.
    The idea that each little land in the world has hyper specific phenotypes that follow manmade borders and imaginary regional classifications stems from old school racism. Not from anti-racism.
    I mean call me nuts but I think its kind of cool and even beautiful how in spite of all the borders people have up, that someone from Karachi could look like the sister of someone from Lisbon. Or even from Havana and Buenos Aires. And to be further frank you'd have to be pretty isolated from diversity to not be aware of that irl.

    Casting someone of Arab descent is not asking too much
    Calling for a precedent that nationality/ethnicity be literally cast is asking a tremendous amount, and is the sort of thing that will limit the options of minority actors.
    From your eyes right now you seem to be thinking that greater care need apply to non-white roles, and thus concern is not needed for white roles.
    The actual result though is minority actors being more limited in options, and white actors at worst not being cast in whitewashed roles, while still being cast all over the European spectrum.
    After all that is precisely what is going on here. The Indian actress is running up against a wall in her options in your ideal world.

    if they claim they're not going to be whitewashing and will do it justice, then cast the right people for it.
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with whitewashing.

    And as i've said already they may as well have just cast some one that was neither Arab nor Indian but could pass for it for her role if this is what they were going to do.
    ...how would that change your stance on it? Actually I'm totally confused on this whole sentence. Because thats uh...what they did? They cast someone who could pass for the role? Who wasn't Arab? I'm not sure why Indian is packaged with Arab here.

    A part of me wants this casting controversy to carry on, and i want this movie to fail badly. Petty yes, but frankly, I'm tired and angry about this whole situation.
    Minority actors getting work outside their own niche?

    Christ dude, think about this for two seconds. What if the actress that was chosen was from a small barely talked about ethnic background, like....Tajik or Azerbaijani or something.
    Rather than something famous like Arab or Indian. Your whole thing would be basically damning her to pretty much never get speaking roles ever.

    I've seen this happen 1 too many times, and its part of a much bigger picture.
    That bigger picture isn't "brown people aren't interchangeable", its "brown people aren't a precious resource of carefully preserved diorama figurines that must be carefully placed in the right habitat".

    They can look like people from hundreds of miles across the globe, just like white people.
    They can do that whole acting thing where they can portray people other than themselves and their own origin, just like white people.
    They can in fact be pretty interchangeable physically, just like white people.
    They can even plausibly play some white people! Heck some of them if you met them on the street? You'd think they were white people.

    Lest we forget these are ethnicities (culturally defined) being spoken of and not races (physically defined).

    If you're an Arab you might as well be at the bottom of the casting barrel.
    I love that its Arabs your worried about, and not all the little ethnic groups you probably aren't even aware of.
    What the heck does a Kurdish actor do? Georgian? Berber? Pashtun?

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Heck lets even focus in on Naomi Scott.
    Frankly while she could pass for straight Indian, overall she doesn't really look it. She is after all half English, and it shows.
    So really casting her as an Indian character ironically seems a little off.
    Likewise she doesn't work as Northern European. Thus including her own native England.

    Where can she get roles that her physical appearance fits? Not England, nor India.
    However she can pull off racially ambiguous characters, which means she can pull of random Americans, she can pull off being Latina to varying degrees depending what kind. She can pull off Southern Europeans like Italians, Spaniards, Greeks etc, as well as most Middle Easterners.

    She's essentially a mixed race actor, and they're the MOST damned sometimes by your sort of logic. Like I said, generally she looks neither English nor Indian. The two things that she literally is. But there in the great geographic middle between pasty pale Northern Europe, and spicy umber South Asia...boom! The land of her opportunity.
    Last edited by Monkey King; July 19th, 2017 at 02:08 PM.

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