Felch Discussion Part 4

[No Maam]

This is all speculation. The only thing we know for sure is that her being wronged had nothing to do with Aizen. And no way she was gone for a century, at that time Aizen was still a scrawny Vice Captain, not really the conqueror of HM. Also, Nells attitude in the flashback was that of a loyal model soldier, like Harribel -why would she get pissed at Aizen backstabbing her if she'd always felt he was a total dick? And Starrk joined to get friends.
Also, BANZAI AIZEN SAMA.



The reason I brought up Nells allegiance was that it's something that should have been made a bigger deal out of and puts the characters allegiance in a totally new light. There was room for some interesting conflict here, but it never amounts to anything because Kubo kicks Nell out the back door after the Nnoitra fight and, as Nobodyman said, just thought up the shole thing on the spot to be Cool.

But you know what, unholy abominations or not, Pesshe and Dondonchakka were still the last two things in this manga I legitimately enjoyed through and through.

Hidden:

http://i30.mangareader.net/bleach/295/bleach-15434.jpg

Hidden:

http://i4.mangareader.net/bleach/296/bleach-15449.jpg

I'm not ashamed to say that I find this both decently drawn and funny.

But you know what gets me? A competent author could easily solve the problem of good guys being hollows, and have these characters return - as shinigami. If they really arent ferocious monsters the should have no problem volounteering to be purified, causing loads of souls to move on to SS- including the dominant one that gave them their identity. Then, after joining up with their new allies as ashinigami, soul reaper releases couls invoke their previous hollow selves, but in new interesting ways.
Shame we're stuck with Kubo.

But wouldn't that sort of......ya know, make them weakened by like 99.9 % ?

[Sonic Youth]

They could just train like all the other souls do, because it seems about 2-4 months of training gets you to Espada level anyway.

[No Maam]

From being 1xth out of 1.125 x10^9 ?

Yeah can anyone sum that up in numbers ?

[The Daz]

Ah, but No maam, as Sonic youth pointed out, even one VC shinigami soul >millions of hollows mashed together (and arrancarized), as seen during the adjuchas fraccion fights and so on. Such is the power of being a Protagonist. And Kubo could always come up with something a lá "their bodies remember their hollow powers. Somehow."

Haha, the more you think about it, Rukia from the first arc seems like the biggest wuss ever to come out of Soul Society. "A Gillian!?! Ohmigod, No way, I've only ever seen them in books, we're in deep shit!"

Then next arc she one-shots an arrancarized Adjuchas. Thats just about when hollows ceased being a credible threat.

[No Maam]

Well that's a classic example of Kubo's retroactive discontinuity.

[Hisoga]

Ah, but No maam, as Sonic youth pointed out, even one VC shinigami soul >millions of hollows mashed together (and arrancarized), as seen during the adjuchas fraccion fights and so on. Such is the power of being a Protagonist. And Kubo could always come up with something a lá "their bodies remember their hollow powers. Somehow."

Haha, the more you think about it, Rukia from the first arc seems like the biggest wuss ever to come out of Soul Society. "A Gillian!?! Ohmigod, No way, I've only ever seen them in books, we're in deep shit!"

Of course, next she one-shots an arrancarized Adjuchas.

but no.9 was a Gillian.

[The Daz]

Yes, and he also had a sense of self. And curbstomped Rukia.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

[Outerspec]

This is all speculation. The only thing we know for sure is that her being wronged had nothing to do with Aizen. And no way she was gone for a century, at that time Aizen was still a scrawny Vice Captain, not really the conqueror of HM. Also, Nells attitude in the flashback was that of a loyal model soldier, like Harribel -why would she get pissed at Aizen backstabbing her if she'd always felt he was a total dick? And Starrk joined to get friends.
Also, BANZAI AIZEN SAMA.

You're right, there is some speculation, yes, but it's not all speculation. I know for a fact that Aizen recruited allof the Espada shown in flashbacks. Even Stark looking for friends did not know Aizen even existed until Aizen approached and recrutied him.

You assume Aizen wasn't recruiting the Espada before he was a Captain while we know for sure he already recruited Gin and Tousen on his 'Evil Team' and was always devilishly strong as a Vice Captain. There's no reason he couldn't have been travelling to Hueco Mundo and recruiting the first of the Espada at that time. Remember the "former" Espada who were kicked out because they were too weak? At what point did Aizen recruit them? I'm also speculating here as to when this all happened because the fact is nobody knows the exact timeline. I doubt Kubo even knows which I'm pretty sure you'd agree with, so we don't know when Nel could have been recruited.

But I'll take you up on your point that "no way she was gone for a century". I'll concede that since I don't know and say it was "years". Still, if Aizen hadn't found her in years then he still obviously didn't care about finding her. This is Aizen we're talking about. If Aizen wanted to know about you or find you...he'd find you. It's not so much the fact Aizen had nothing to do with her betrayal, but the fact that she was basically abandoned. Even if she didn't feel that way she still was obviously not that loyal to Aizen beyond her duty while in the army. If she was that loyal to Aizen she would have turned on Ichigo right then and there and beheaded him.

The reason I brought up Nells allegiance was that it's something that should have been made a bigger deal out of and puts the characters allegiance in a totally new light. There was room for some interesting conflict here, but it never amounts to anything because Kubo kicks Nell out the back door after the Nnoitra fight and, as Nobodyman said, just thought up the shole thing on the spot to be Cool.

But you know what, unholy abominations or not, Pesshe and Dondonchakka were still the last two things in this manga I legitimately enjoyed through and through.

Hidden:

http://i30.mangareader.net/bleach/295/bleach-15434.jpg

Hidden:

http://i4.mangareader.net/bleach/296/bleach-15449.jpg

I'm not ashamed to say that I find this both decently drawn and funny.

But you know what gets me? A competent author could easily solve the problem of good guys being hollows, and have these characters return - as shinigami. If they really aren't ferocious monsters they should have no problem volounteering to be purified, causing loads of souls to move on to SS- including the dominant one that gave them their identity. Then, after joining up with their new allies as a shinigami, soul reaper releases could invoke their previous hollow selves, but in new interesting ways.
Shame we're stuck with Kubo.

Fair enough. If you see room for improvement, no matter how much, then I can't argue with that. God knows I see room for improvement in almost every other aspect of the manga.

[Tokoro Ataru]

Yes, and he also had a sense of self. And curbstomped Rukia.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

Amazingly he was one of the most competent villains...even if he has "I have a glass head, destroy me here" written all over him. How come he was the weakest one again when he had the smarts to actually evolve and be a threat?

Yeah, this is the series that takes 10, turns him into 0 and still has him destroyed off-screen by two captains. I'm trying to find logic in the logicless.

[S.C. Amigo]

I think Kubo killed off Ruffles after he realized him saying he had 30,000 + abilities meant he'd have to think of at least a few more of them, and he was too lazy. Of course, with so many powers, logic (Well, there you are) would push him into the top-tier. Oh well.

[No Maam]

Ruffles ?

1 6 .

[S.C. Amigo]

Ruffles ?

1 6 .

Double A had this ruffly collar, and used because his name is freakin' hard to write off memory.

[No Maam]

Aaroniero.

That's fairly easy compared to his second name and how the fuck you spell that.

[The Daz]

I know for a fact that Aizen recruited allof the Espada shown in flashbacks. Even Stark looking for friends did not know Aizen even existed until Aizen approached and recrutied him.

I agree. I'm not sure what your point is though. My point was that clearly Aizen didn't strongarm all the hollows into working for him. Many we clearly know joined of their own accord, for protection (Aaroniero), company (Starrk) or BANZAI AIZEN SAMA, and it seems highly propable that Nnoitra and Grimmjow wanted the strenght Aizen and his dragonball offered. And the standard employee attitude was one of "we must please Aizen sama!", not fear - Ulq and the arrancar bitches basically lived for Aizens attention. Really, the only exception was Barragan.

You assume Aizen wasn't recruiting the Espada before he was a Captain while we know for sure he already recruited Gin and Tousen on his 'Evil Team' and was always devilishly strong as a Vice Captain. There's no reason he couldn't have been travelling to Hueco Mundo and recruiting the first of the Espada at that time. Remember the "former" Espada who were kicked out because they were too weak? At what point did Aizen recruit them? I'm also speculating here as to when this all happened because the fact is nobody knows the exact timeline. I doubt Kubo even knows which I'm pretty sure you'd agree with, so we don't know when Nel could have been recruited.

I take that what you're saying here is that Nell and co. were gone for a long time because they were from the privaron espada days, with the privaron being weak enough that younger-and-weaker-than-current-Aizen could recruit them, yes?
Sorry, but that doesn't fly.
Dordonni said that the Privaron were demoted when the dragonball arrived. He was the former number three.

In his flashback, Nnoitra was number 8. If that takes place before the dragonballs arrival, theres no way he would have been allowed to remain in the espada. So, it has to take place after Aizen aquired the Dragonball, and started powering up the hollows.

But that means Nell and Nnoitra were created only months earlier, when Aizen defected from soul society! That doesn't fit at all with Nnoitra saying she's been gone for years!

No, it doesn't.

But I'll take you up on your point that "no way she was gone for a century". I'll concede that since I don't know and say it was "years". Still, if Aizen hadn't found her in years then he still obviously didn't care about finding her. This is Aizen we're talking about. If Aizen wanted to know about you or find you...he'd find you. It's not so much the fact Aizen had nothing to do with her betrayal, but the fact that she was basically abandoned.

British officer A and subordinate B go to France during WWII.
Soldier B hates A's guts and assaults him.
Soldier A is left in France with amnesia.
Years later, with the war still going on, soldier A regains his memory. He chooses not to rejoin the fight, since Churchill didn't search all of France to findt him, the bastard.

If she was that loyal to Aizen she would have turned on Ichigo right then and there and beheaded him.

EXCACTLY! That's what Nobodyman and I have been trying to say: Why didn't she do that? Why was it never even discussed?! We didn't get even a token exchange of

Ichigo: Wait, does that mean you're one of Aizens soldiers!?!
Nell: Don't worry, Aizen kicked my puppy once, so I've hated him all along!

or

Kenpachi: the hell are you doing, hanging out with Aizens minions?
Nell: I hate Aizen, I've chosen to defect!

It is completely glossed over.

[maxterdexter]

Who said that the ten comandments went from 1 to 10?

[Outerspec]

I agree. I'm not sure what your point is though. My point was that clearly Aizen didn't strongarm all the hollows into working for him. Many we clearly know joined of their own accord, for protection (Aaroniero), company (Starrk) or BANZAI AIZEN SAMA, and it seems highly propable that Nnoitra and Grimmjow wanted the strenght Aizen and his dragonball offered. And the standard employee attitude was one of "we must please Aizen sama!", not fear - Ulq and the arrancar bitches basically lived for Aizens attention. Really, the only exception was Barragan.

My point is that it wasn't all speculation and no matter who joined Aizen, or by what means or for what purpose, in every case it was Aizen going to them.

I take that what you're saying here is that Nell and co. were gone for a long time because they were from the privaron espada days, with the privaron being weak enough that younger-and-weaker-than-current-Aizen could recruit them, yes?
Sorry, but that doesn't fly.
Dordonni said that the Privaron were demoted when the dragonball arrived. He was the former number three.

In his flashback, Nnoitra was number 8. If that takes place before the dragonballs arrival, theres no way he would have been allowed to remain in the espada. So, it has to take place after Aizen aquired the Dragonball, and started powering up the hollows.

But that means Nell and Nnoitra were created only months earlier, when Aizen defected from soul society! That doesn't fit at all with Nnoitra saying she's been gone for years!

No, it doesn't.

I think you're mistaken about Dordonni's former rank. We don't know his former rank. You might have gotten the "3" figure from all this talk about 3's when referring to the "former" Espada.

Spoiler:

British officer A and subordinate B go to France during WWII.
Soldier B hates A's guts and assaults him.
Soldier A is left in France with amnesia.
Years later, with the war still going on, soldier A regains his memory. He chooses not to rejoin the fight, since Churchill didn't search all of France to findt him, the bastard.

Don't forget Soldier A becomes friends with the French people who took care of him and once regained his memory decided the French treated him better. But hey, Soldier A born in Britain is loyal to that country and whoever is in charge of it because that's how he was raised from birth. National pride to your country and leader. So maybe he will rejoin the army and fight the good fight.

Nel was recruited in Aizen's army after who knows how many years of doing her own thing, hardly knows the guy, and as far we can tell only carried out his orders and went no further than that. We don't kow how loyal she was to him and it seems the Espada are very independent beings. The notion of Churchill leading a war and commanding an army of British soldiers is vastly different from Aizen leading a war and commanding a group of recruited soldiers who've shared no bond with him in any shape or form until very recently. And that bond was to be used as Aizen's tools which Dordonni easily figured out.

EXCACTLY! That's what Nobodyman and I have been trying to say: Why didn't she do that? Why was it never even discussed?! We didn't get even a token exchange of

Ichigo: Wait, does that mean you're one of Aizens soldiers!?!
Nell: Don't worry, Aizen kicked my puppy once, so I've hated him all along!

or

Kenpachi: the hell are you doing, hanging out with Aizens minions?
Nell: I hate Aizen, I've chosen to defect!

It is completely glossed over.

My whole argument is that for me it's obvious Nel must've not been that loyal to Aizen in the first place. She was a soldier who did her duty only because she was told to. She did nothing beyond that. If she was extremely loyal to Aizen she would have turned on Ichigo, but since she didn't that shows us that not only is she grateful for his protection but she isn't Aizen's little lackey. Her implied lack of complete loyalty to Aizen answers why she didn't turn on Ichigo. If that's not enough then her gratefulness to Ichigo explains why she didn't do it. The lack of discussion about it in the manga was probably Kubo thinking it didn't need to be explained.


The whole point of my recruitment argument is to show Nel wouldn't even want to go back to Aizen anyway, most likely. That's not even how she got into his army.

[Strawhat Chan]

BTW, Aizen starte recruiting the Espada since 50 years ago at most, as when he approached Barragan with Gin and Tousen, they both already were Captains (and we know that Gin became a Captain around 50 years ago, together with Byakuya).

[roronoa3000]

Where were Tessai & Ryuuken when Aizen attacked their town?
What the hell are those kids that live with Urahara?
Where were the or shinigami in FKT arc?
WTF happened to Kensei?
How did so many women survive attacks from hollows?
How is whatshisface a fox when everyone else is human?
How can shinigami have children?
Why does Orihime exist?
What are Yoruichi measurements?
Do you think Soi-Fon would date me?

[loledinmypants]

Aaroniero would have been my favorite Espada, if he wouldn't have relied solely on his one out of 30,000 powers (to transform into Kaen and become a bishi). His non-transformed design wasn't bishi and his release looked pretty intimidating.

[MetaMario]

Daz's and Nobodyman's posts on the whole Nel alliance have me thinking. Maybe that's why Kubo turned her back into a child and then erased her from existance. He didn't want to bother and put the spotlight on her defiance from Aizen's side.

.....

Late, I know.