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Thread: Western Comics thread

  1. #5541
    Lost in Traslation Katzztar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    He's got a history of writing horrific violence and horrible people and being awful to women.

    Like, you can't judge someone about what they write for a fantasy story, but when they go to certain themes and ideas over and over ...
    When I first read the part I was about to disagree and debate that as first thing that came to mind was Stephen King writing some really disturbing horror scenes. But i went ahead and read next line....

    and keep showing certain consistent attitudes it eventually stops being a story thing and turns into an author thing.
    And that's a good point, esp with how the writer acts and behaves, really makes the difference.

    Have you seen the Castlevania anime? He's the guy that thought having a lengthy dialogue about donkey sex was a great addition to the mood of the piece.
    ... uh welll... *ahem* as I said, all I know of Ellis is his work in Marvel comics in ?early 90s? the late end of original Excalibur.
    I've not yet gotten to watch the Castlevania anime, I've heard mixed reviews for it. I got to admit I never heard of that though

  2. #5542

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    I might have blocked out completely the donkey sex scene, it as talking about donkeys having sex or having sex with donkeys...alas, better don't ask questions to which one does not want answers.



  3. #5543

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzztar View Post
    When I first read the part I was about to disagree and debate that as first thing that came to mind was Stephen King writing some really disturbing horror scenes.
    In Steven King's case the character archetyes he uses over and over and over speak a bit to his personality and way of thinking. Like he very frequently has writer as a main character, his stories are mostly about the middle class, there's ALWAYS a needless bully, a frequent theme is Dogmatic religious belief leads to ruin, etc. You actually get a pretty reasonable idea of how the man works if you look at enough of his stuff.

    Like, even if you knew nothing about King, you could figure out that he was a nerd that got picked on as he grew up, that he lived in Maine, and that he doesn't much respect religion.

    But for all that he does cosmic or monster horror, it's pretty rare that he goes into straight up rape or horrific on-page violence, (usually he leaves it to the reader's imagination) and he doesn't generally treat women worse than men. He's actually very protective of children and innocence and so on, and while his stories have evil always be stronger than good, its also stupider.

    So yeah, with him you can see where the line is of "I'm writing this dark thing for the sake of the story" and "I'm writing this dark thing because its part of my actual personality and I actually believe it."


    Like, even something like the teenager orgy scene in IT that gets a ton of questionable eyebrows... its super gross but in-context it sort of makes sense in that particular story for that particular moment, and had it just been one girl and one guy no one would question them having sex after a horrific super near death life defining experience. Its that she does it with several boys at the same time and they're like 15 that makes it squicky.

    And, if King had a scene like that in all of his stories, or even just every third story, you'd very quickly decide he has a fetish for orgies and underage girls... but as far as I know, its pretty much that one instance. Because it was right for that story, however squick it would be. (And at least they were ALL underage?) So a writer writing a questionable thing once isn't always something to call them on. A writer doing the same thing constantly though? They might actually mean it.
    Last edited by Robby; June 24th, 2020 at 08:12 PM.
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  4. #5544

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Like, even something like the teenager orgy scene in IT that gets a ton of questionable eyebrows... its super gross but in-context it sort of makes sense in that particular story for that particular moment, and had it just been one girl and one guy no one would question them having sex after a horrific super near death life defining experience. Its that she does it with several boys at the same time and they're like 15 that makes it squicky.
    Younger than that, actually. More like 12-13. If I recall correctly, the reasoning they give in the story is that the boys are freaking the fuck out in the tunnels and they'll all get lost and die if they don't calm down, so...that's why the underage sex thing was apparently necessary (and she does each of them one by one if that makes any difference).

    (And at least they were ALL underage?)
    Yes

    Anyway, back on topic, does this mean I can't read Transmetropolitan now? I mean, I've heard it's one of the most acclaimed comics ever made, but maybe it is just a dumb, squicky, overhyped comic?

  5. #5545

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    It is very good (and prescient), but the two main female characters are in love with the Ellis insert.

  6. #5546

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Younger than that, actually. More like 12-13. If I recall correctly,
    I haven't read the book in literal decades and have no desire to do so again. The actors in both adaptations were a bit older than that though I guess?

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Anyway, back on topic, does this mean I can't read Transmetropolitan now? I mean, I've heard it's one of the most acclaimed comics ever made, but maybe it is just a dumb, squicky, overhyped comic?
    You can always separate the work from the artist. The question is do you want to support them while they still make money off of it?

    Its one thing to go "okay, Lovecraft was super racist but it was 100 years ago and his mythos is interesting and he died 80 years ago."

    Its another to go "Well, Ender's Game was pretty good I guess I can give Orson Scott Card a pass, even though he's directly putting his proceeds into anti-gay groups..."

    And then we've got J.K. Rowling of all people tainting Harry Potter now... and you'd THINK from her writing that she was way more forward thinking and all about equality. (Does make you second guess the elves slavery subplot though...)

    Chick-Fil-A is never getting a dime from me, it doesn't matter HOW good their sandwich is.

    John Lassetter is a womanizing creep, how does that affect the first 20 years of Pixar output? It certainly sheds light on a few things, but...

    I'll never watch the Cosby Show again and I grew up on that garbage.

    I don't think I'll ever watch Nostalgia Critic again, and that's been an easy choice to make for a couple years now.

    I try not to support Wall-Mart or Amazon but they're so big you don't really have a choice sometimes.

    It depends on where your line is.
    Last edited by Robby; June 24th, 2020 at 11:00 PM.
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  7. #5547

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Well I only buy comics after Iíve already read them so, I guess Mr. Ellis ainít getting my dimes.

    I think separating work and author is valid in certain occasions, and is absolutely easier when the author donít use their success to promote their bigotry or weird ideas.

    And the bit about Nostalgia Critic is that Doug is an absolute dipshit garbage human being towards his employees, right? I remember a fuzz sometime ago but itís been so long that I havenít watched that I have no idea if the fuzz affected my opinion or not.



  8. #5548
    Lost in Traslation Katzztar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Thank you for the thoughtful reply and for showing the point of my less-than-articulate answer when I mentioned that a writer known for disturbing content may have a good personality.
    It's if they have a repeating dark theme with disturbing personality in real life.
    From stuff I know of King and his posts on Facebook or twitter (usually anti-Trump quotes, but I do see some encouraging new writers) I like his personality.
    As opposed to Warren Ellis who I only know of one works (Excalibur Vol.1) From what I've learned of the man, I don't like and not encouraged to find more of his works.

    And you're right about King's writings. He does do dark themes (monsters, cosmic evil, madness of the common man ect) but majority of violent scenes is left to the mind to imagine.
    In fact some of those not left to the imagination are in the books that's more realistic than cosmic or mystic/monstrous, like the scene in Misery where Annie is hobbling the writer.
    But on second thought... WAS the book descriptive of that scene? I can't remember the book well and keep going to the scene in the movie, so my memory may be messing with me on that.

  9. #5549
    Colin Baker Apologist Mr. Zoro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    In Steven King's case the character archetyes he uses over and over and over speak a bit to his personality and way of thinking. Like he very frequently has writer as a main character, his stories are mostly about the middle class, there's ALWAYS a needless bully, a frequent theme is Dogmatic religious belief leads to ruin, etc. You actually get a pretty reasonable idea of how the man works if you look at enough of his stuff.

    Like, even if you knew nothing about King, you could figure out that he was a nerd that got picked on as he grew up, that he lived in Maine, and that he doesn't much respect religion.

    But for all that he does cosmic or monster horror, it's pretty rare that he goes into straight up rape or horrific on-page violence, (usually he leaves it to the reader's imagination) and he doesn't generally treat women worse than men. He's actually very protective of children and innocence and so on, and while his stories have evil always be stronger than good, its also stupider.
    All this talk of authors' personal views leaking through in their writing quickly brings to mind Frank Miller's "almost literally every female is a sex worker" schtick. Ugh.

    And for what it's worth to anyone else wondering, Frank Miller's Superman Year One was just about what you'd expect it to be. I read it and please don't waste your money on it. No sex workers, but issue 2 definitely had some Atlantean-father-incest-rape connotations going on that were completely unnecessary.

    Oh and the story and writing is just bad, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Anyway, back on topic, does this mean I can't read Transmetropolitan now? I mean, I've heard it's one of the most acclaimed comics ever made, but maybe it is just a dumb, squicky, overhyped comic?
    This is always a struggle with separating authors and works for me. Others have mentioned it already, but if I can find a way to read/experience work without supporting the crappy artist, than I feel pretty good about it.

    I was super interested in hearing a Doctor Who audio story earlier this year (The Psychic Circus), until I found out that the actor playing the Master in that story was transphobic... And I don't want that man getting any ounce of my money. If I find a way to listen to that story for free (despite the fact I want to support Big Finish), than sure, I'll listen to it. But I won't support it financially, and I'll always bring up how that actor is a transphobe anytime someone asks me about it.

  10. #5550

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Remember when Frank Miller was that cool reinvented Daredevil guy?

  11. #5551

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    You can always separate the work from the artist. The question is do you want to support them while they still make money off of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Zoro View Post
    This is always a struggle with separating authors and works for me. Others have mentioned it already, but if I can find a way to read/experience work without supporting the crappy artist, than I feel pretty good about it.

    I was super interested in hearing a Doctor Who audio story earlier this year (The Psychic Circus), until I found out that the actor playing the Master in that story was transphobic... And I don't want that man getting any ounce of my money. If I find a way to listen to that story for free (despite the fact I want to support Big Finish), than sure, I'll listen to it. But I won't support it financially, and I'll always bring up how that actor is a transphobe anytime someone asks me about it.
    See, my reasoning is that, while I understand not wanting to support someone with deplorable beliefs, I consider all the other people who went into making the product. Going back to Mr. Zoro's example, it's unfortunate that the actor in Doctor Who is transphobic (something I didn't know until now and honestly a bit surprising considering how progressive Doctor Who tends to be), but there's all the other actors, writers, directors, etc. who probably have done nothing wrong. So should they be punished and lose money because one of their co-workers has those beliefs?

    And, of course, it depends on the time of medium and the level of contribution the person. If it's a novel, generally the author him/herself is the only one who really benefits/suffers from the sale. An editor or publisher's career generally won't hinge on the sale of one book. But when you get into more collaborative stuff like movies or TV shows or video games, where you have tons of people making big contributions to the product, it really makes me wonder.

    I don't know. I'm not trying to guilt anybody or tell you what to believe. God knows I don't have the answers. It's just something I've thought about.

  12. #5552

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Frank Miller, incidentally, was scared straight in 2016 and has been on the straight and narrow ever since (even though his comics are still terrible). He even supported the ouster of the sex pest running the CBLDF.

  13. #5553

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pariston_hill View Post
    And the bit about Nostalgia Critic is that Doug is an absolute dipshit garbage human being towards his employees, right?
    Yeah, basically every single person that ever worked with or associated with him came out and said "Yeah, he's awful and here's a list of reasons why."

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.v89be0jiemu0

    The document is 73 pages long.

    There's a reason every single one of the 80+ creators that were on their site left. Except Brad Jones because he's terrible, and Guru Larry because he thinks its hilarious to be the last one on there when no one gave a crap about him being on there before.
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  14. #5554

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Remember when Frank Miller was that cool reinvented Daredevil guy?
    Which was so long ago Marvel essentially redid the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  15. #5555

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Apparently I did read something of the manifesto as I open it went direct to page 66.
    And I think Frank Miller started to spiral out of control in his mental sanity since the early 2000s.



  16. #5556

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    9/11 is pretty much the official "Frank went nuts" mark, but he was sliding well before that.

    Sin City which he did in the 90's almost gets a pass for sheer stylization but its... uhm... well... Sin City.
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  17. #5557

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    So did anyone knew Invincible is getting an animated adaptation with JK Simmons as Nolan? Supposedly to be released this year!



  18. #5558

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pariston_hill View Post
    So did anyone knew Invincible is getting an animated adaptation with JK Simmons as Nolan? Supposedly to be released this year!
    Cool! Is it going to follow the comics?

    Please tell me it DOESN'T follow the comics.

    Cause those... kinda fell apart after a while.

    Good first few years though.
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  19. #5559

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    The wiki only says that would be eight 60min episodes, so I don't think that can adapt fully 25 volumes.



  20. #5560

    Default Re: Western Comics thread

    Welp, Disney pulled the Alien and Predator licenses from Dark Horse.



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