One Piece Gigant Battle! 2 "Shin Sekai" - Nintendo DS

[pyromonki]

I've yet to see a 2D fighter that has done that, and there's a reason:

1. That's a character slot.
2. You have to adjust the hitbox to make sure your alternate costumes don't ruin anything.

With 3D fighters, it's a MUCH easier process, since you just draw a highly detailed image and then merge it with 3D model, you only have to do the animation once or twice. Drawing the skin isn't so easy, but still... it's a straight forward process.

In 2D fighters, you have to redraw every frame. You can take shortcuts, but trust me, fighting games have a lot of frames. To make matters worse, fighting games have hit boxes, when you make an alternate costume, you have to adjust the hitbox so that the costume don't shrink or increase the hitbox size. (No one should get hit in the hat and get hurt etc.)

Also you have to make sure the character's attack range doesn't increase or decrease.

Even SF4 and MK9 have these problems and they are 3D games.

I can show you a good example of what I mean. When I was a kid, I tried making a One Piece fighting game for PC:



Did you notice that the moves where Luffy stretches didn't work fully? (The pistol didn't carry the enemy the full duration, the hand didn't grab, the spear didn't hit)

It's because I extended Luffy's stretch size for the arm.. but NOT the hitbox to go with it. If I gave Luffy a point hat of 10 pixels high, I would have to move the hit box 10 pixels lower to make it match the original.

It's a hassle for 2D programmers, and just a glitchy mess waiting to happen unless you have a nice orchestrated programming team.

It's just not going to happen.

Programmers use alt colors for this very reason, it still takes up a character slot, but it doesn't mess with the hit boxes.

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[Velguador]

A lot of words

Sprites and hitboxes are two separate things. You have the regular sprites, and some invisible boxes over them that act as the hitboxes. Laying different sprites over these hitboxes has absolutely no effect, except that you must align them one time. Since range and all such things depend on the hitboxes alone, your argument is invalid. It also takes less time and data for alternate costumes than entire characters, because (for the data) you can recycle the hitboxes and programming, and (for the time) you can (or actually, must, if you want consistency) edit the existing sprites rather than start from scratch. That said, using a different colour scheme allows you to create the new sprites even faster and you can use a colour-palette rather than multiple sprites, meaning this circumvents both the data and time constraints entirely. But almost nobody uses palette options in real-time (only to create the sprite), preferring to save the sheet as a whole after they swapped the colours with about two mouse-clicks, so the data-constraint doesn't matter in most cases (as a new sheet, which it most likely will be used as, it takes up exactly as much data as an alternate costume will). By the way, since it is saved as a new sheet, they will have to align the hitboxes anyway, and since the most likely points of reference are the head and feet (bodyparts, and not changed by costumes) this will take exactly the same amount of time it will take to align them to alternate costumes. So while I'm sure they'll use colour schemes rather than costumes, it is not for the reasons you mentioned, and only the only reason is that they can create the new sprites much more easier.

Second, I agree that it is easier to make alternate costumes for 3D fighters, since they'd only have to edit the model once (if they saved a 'naked' model so they don't have to set all bones and boneweights again, but anyone worth their salt does this). But, 3D fighters (and just about all games with 3D models, including FPSes and Platformers) also use hitboxes the same way sprites use them. Like invisible boxes layed over the actual visual. They do not use the model you are looking at in itself, just like sprites don't use the actual sprite to detect collisions. If you own a PC game that allows you to use the console, some games have a command to visualize the hitboxes (Valve games can do this, I believe they use cv_showhitbox 1, but you'll have to google that to be sure). All in all, aside from the creation of the costume (time) there isn't a whole lot of difference with the 3D method (you could argue about the few MB you might create with an extra spritesheet, but that will still be less than the data it takes for one model).

I could go on, but I feel this is long enough. All condensed, alternate costumes do not screw with hitboxes, time is the only thing preventing us from getting things other than alternate colour schemes.
This was a message brought to you by someone who cares.

[lizard81288]

I've yet to see a 2D fighter that has done that, and there's a reason:

This is what I'm talking about:
http://www.geocities.jp/web_of_onese...r_magneto.html

[pyromonki]

Sprites and hitboxes are two separate things. You have the regular sprites, and some invisible boxes over them that act as the hitboxes. Laying different sprites over these hitboxes has absolutely no effect, except that you must align them one time. Since range and all such things depend on the hitboxes alone, your argument is invalid.

That's not what affects the hitboxes, the changed width and the height of sprite does.

If the hitbox is programmed relative to the sprite's width, height and position, then altering the size of the sprite is going to shift the hitbox relative to the pixel size increase.

Like so:

If Luffy punches, I programmed the hitbox (let's say the origin is in the middle) to x+Luffy_spritewidth/2, y-Luffy_spriteheight/2-4 (to be where the fist is.)

Now what happens if I add a pimp cape to Luffy's body that flows 10 pixels back? (It's just an example, you could just layer the cape sprite behind luffy, rather than actually drawing it on him but I couldn't think of a better example atm)

The hitbox just got pushed forward 10 pixels past Luffy's fist. Or if I gave luffy a pirate flag hanging tall behind him 10 pixels tall.... the hitbox is now above Luffy's head.

The difference would be minor in most cases, I'm just exaggerating it to illustrate that it can effect hit boxes.

Check this out:
http://shoryuken.com/2011/08/07/ssf4...ecific-combos/

It's not the actual sprite or the model sizes but more so a conjunction of the hitbox being programmed to be relative to the sprite/model's width and height.

And I said pallete swapping was the better option it just looks weird most of the time. That's how you get "Brown skin" luffy with weird color schemes.

[Velguador]

That's not what affects the hitboxes, the changed width and the height of sprite does.

If the hitbox is programmed relative to the sprite's width, height and position, then altering the size of the sprite is going to shift the hitbox relative to the pixel size increase.

Like so:

If Luffy punches, I programmed the hitbox (let's say the origin is in the middle) to x+Luffy_spritewidth/2, y-Luffy_spriteheight/2-4 (to be where the fist is.)

Now what happens if I add a pimp cape to Luffy's body that flows 10 pixels back? (It's just an example, you could just layer the cape sprite behind luffy, rather than actually drawing it on him but I couldn't think of a better example atm)

The hitbox just got pushed forward 10 pixels past Luffy's fist. Or if I gave luffy a pirate flag hanging tall behind him 10 pixels tall.... the hitbox is now above Luffy's head.

The difference would be minor in most cases, I'm just exaggerating it to illustrate that it can effect hit boxes.

Only with lazy hitboxes, and those kind of hitboxes don't work in fighting games. Especially because from your comment, it sounds like you create the hitbox by running a formula over the sprite. That is not something you should ever do when creating hitboxes, unless maybe all characters are perfect rectangles. Let's take the hitbox in your example. What happens when I stand way below Luffy's fist, but my head sticks out a bit above his feet? I get hit, because the hitbox is a square in your case. And what happens if my character touches yours in the back (just standing) and then you punch? Going from what I see here, I'd get hit because the hitbox for the character and the fist are one and the same. Thus, get hit by any part of the character=hit by the fist. Obviously, this is not how it works.
They actually use multiple squares to fit the shape around the character, and use different ones for attacks. This hitbox is NOT generated by the sprite, as that would cause too much work. It works more like a cloak they put over the character, and that cloak can be re-used for different sprites. Technically for all of them, but Nami with Luffy's hitboxes would be weird. But when you put that pirateflag on Luffy, you realign the hitboxes back to his head and/or other reference points, like I mentioned, and the whole flag is takes out of the equation.
I'll say it again: The spite and hitbox are 100%, completely separate.

The SSF4 case you posted is an odd one, but I believe it is caused by misalignment. You'd have to check the hitboxes to be sure (I believe SSF4 allows you to visualize them). But granted, I don't know exactly how they use the hitboxes with alternate costumes in that game. Seeing as how his head is being hit and the costume changes nothing there, and nothing to make him taller, I say this was not intended to happen and most likely a screw-up. Again, I'm no expert on it, so don't take that for granted.

[pyromonki]

sorry lizard, a long argument for no reason I suppose, but the battle continues anyway!

Spoiler:

No no, you misunderstand me. The hitbox isn't a part of the body! The hitbox is a seperate sprite all it's own, but you do program them relative to the characters position man.

How do you think those boxes get there dude?

the box's position is always relative to the fighters position and frames.

What I posted above what the hitbox's placement in a program directly aligned to luffy's fist. The hitbox width and height would be dynamically programmed for the fist, but it gets placed in relevancy to the width and height of the sprite.

Although the code I posted above didn't show relevancy to luffy's facing direction...

here's an example I made of what I'm talking about. You have to program dem hitboxes...

Spoiler:

one again, there was no need to add high heels, but it shows how programming relevancy has to be adjusted for even some miniscule changes.

I just added 4 pixels mind you.

Edit: ARGH. I made it in a rush. I shouldn't have changed that 20 to 18 in the SECOND Math time.

The point was if you left it the same the hitboxes would be off if you adjusted a sprite size.

[Velguador]

Very well then, spoilered in order to keep the argument out of the rest of this topic.

Spoiler:

I think we misunderstand each other here on some points. It is 6:30 Am here, so please forgive any spelling mistakes I will inevitably make.
First of all, I see what you mean with the "height of the sprite" thing, and that's where the confusion comes from. We both seem to understand how hitboxes actually work, as you stated with the math (I realize you kept it simple for the sake of convenience). You were talking about an increase of the character's height, and I was talking about the sprite height. These are not the same. The high heels in your example make it so the same hitboxes can not be used because your character actually needs to connect to the ground earlier. You will probably not see such changes in an alternate costume for that reason. It essentially like changing his posture, for all intents and purposes (regarding hitboxes).
In my example, I gave Luffy a quick alternate costume. Sleeves, boxing braces, a giant pointy hat, and a giant flowing cape. Bottom row shows the hitboxes. Completely different, if not silly (and pretty ugly, but as I mentioned, it's 6:30 and this is a rush job). The cape and hat are way out of the hitbox range, but they do not need to collide, as your character doesn't stand on them (floor-collision) or gets hurt when touched there, and vice-versa. Thus, the hitboxes can be recycled as usual. Our argument stemmed from the fact that you visualize costumes as something that could alter a character's height, whereas I see them as additions or changes that have no impact on the character itself. In those cases, and I take it those cases are the only viable ones, thus the only ones that the designers will use, the relative points do not change, thus the problem with the knife (as shown above) will not happen.

[Vongola_Boss_XI]

I'm not taking a side cause I dont' know much about this...but there were a few "alt. costumes" in Jump Ultimate Stars.

I don't mean Gear 2 Luffy or Bankai Ichigo which were pretty much separate characters. Seiya and Yoh had bigger armor in their higher level koma yet retained almost all the same attacks. Bobobo had a red shirt in his highest level koma. Vegetto is basically an alt. costume of Super Saiyan Goku.

1. Luffy (4,5,6)
2. Zoro (4,5,6)
3. Nami (4,5)
4. Perfect Clima Tact Nami (6)
5. Sanji (4,5,6)
6. Robin (4,5,6)
7. Franky (4,5)
8. Gear 2 Luffy (7,8)
9. Naruto (4,5,6)
10. Kyuubi Naruto (7,8)
11. Kakashi (4,5,6)
12. Sasuke (7,8)
13. Sakura (4,5,6)
14. Goku (4)
15. Super Saiyan Goku (5,6,7)
16. Vegetto (8)
17. Super Saiyan Gohan (4)
18. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (5)
19. Vegeta (4)
20. Super Saiyan Vegeta (5, 6)
21. Piccolo (4,5)
22. Buu (6)
23. Freeza (6)
24. Gotenks (4)
25. Super Saiyan Gotenks (5)
26. Ichigo (4,5,6)
27. Bankai Ichigo (7,8)
28. Kenshin (4,5,6)
29. Yusuke (4,5,6)
30. Hiei (4,5)
31. Kurama (4,5)
32. Gon (4,5)
33. Killua (4,5)
34. Eve (4,5)
35. Train (4,5)
36. Yoh (4,5)
37. Final Over Soul Yoh (6)
38. Anna (4,5)
39. Arale (4,5,6,7)
40. Mashirito (4,5,6,7)
41. Carmelman J (8)
42. Gintoki (4,5,6,7)
43. Kagura (4,5,6)
44. Bobobo (4,5,6)
45. Red Shirt Bobobo (7)
46. Don Patch (4,5,6)
47. Golden Don Patch (7)
48. Seiya (4,5,6)
49. Golden Seiya (7,8)
50. Momotaro (4,5,6)
51. Kenshiro (4,5,6,7,8)
52. Raoh (6,7,8)
53. Tsuna (4,5,6)
54. Allen (4,5,6)
55. Lenalee (4,5)
56. Kazuki (4,5,6)
57. Jaguar (4,5,6)
58. Taikoubou (4,5,6)
59. Jotaro (4,5,6)
60. Dio (4,5,6)
61. Kinnikuman (4,5,6,7,8)
62. Ryotsu (4,5,6,7)
63. Neuro (4,5,6)
64. Muhyo (4,5,6,7)
65. Fuusuke (4,5)
66. Edajima (8)
67. Yugi (4,5,6)
68. Renji (4,5,6)
69. Hitsugaya (4,5,6)
70. Rukia (4,5,6)



So if you do count alt. costumes as separate characters, the playable character count in JUS goes up to 70. Bobobo was the only one that was just a different coloring. Nami, Luffy, Naruto, and Ichigo had completely different movesets and sprites. The movesets for Super Saiyan characters were different and the sprites stood in a completely different stance. Yoh and Seiya stood and moved the same way and had the same movesets, but they had different types of armor / costumes. Then consider there are multiple sets of specials for each.....plus the 40+ stages and crazy number of supports. Man, JUS was a great game. I wish we could have gotten a DS sequel with Toriko characters, Part 2 Straw Hats, updated characters from other series, Bakuman supports, etc.

[redon]

More pics from last V-Jump issue.





Shanks confirmed and new One Piece card as present in the game (like in Gigant Battle 1).

[Cyber-Robin]

Is that Vegapunk's Island (Franky's training) as the level with Shanks on? Or Drum/Impel Down? Sorry it's blurry.

[SomebodyUDon'tKnow]

On the second image, it's just some supports together with playables right? Because if they are playables that confirms:
Wapol
Camie + Papaggu
Lucci
Den Den Mushi
Kuma
Hancock
& Urouge

Out of those, Den Den Mushi and Urouge are the least likely.
Also, some of the characters' sprites there are support attacks from No. 1. ie. Lucci, Camie + Papaggu and Wapol.
Den Den Mushi should still be an item, not a Support if that's what it means.
So, from those pictures, we can deduce that new confirmed playables are Shanks, Hancock and Kuma.
Also, unlike the website, it confirms Crocodile I think. I can't remember if that was his support move from the first game.
Also, what's with the third picture? Are they promoting One Piece figures?

AND if only I had this much to say in Mafia...

[Cyber-Robin]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Hancock, Kuma and Croc will be playable again. I find it very hard to believe they'd remove chars

[redon]

[black-leg jex]

wait i don't get it. Why are they showing the support screen from gigant 1 unless it's gonna be the same in this although i'd have thought they'd put all strawhats on 1 page? I wonder what the cards do this time around?

Is that Vegapunk's Island (Franky's training) as the level with Shanks on? Or Drum/Impel Down? Sorry it's blurry.

I think it's drum island as it looks like the veg lady although it could be the boy on vegapunks. Makes me wonder whether we get 2 levels based on training or not cause franky's and robins would go (both being snow levels) and you could have nami's there as well being a sky island

[lizard81288]

Who is the leader on team 1:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1711/dsc1070j.jpg

I cannot tell, too small. Is it Franky?

[Cyber-Robin]

yup its Franky. guess its based on the other pic next to it.

[lizard81288]

As for the Snow level, I photoshopped it, and then sharpened it the best I could:

[The Namekian Clown]

It's Baldimore. You can see Vegapunk's workshop exploding in the smaller screen in the top left. Though my bet is on the stage being a mashup of all the places the crew was sent.

[Cyber-Robin]

Yeah I was about to say. One pic you can kinda make out Franky in the background

[Supernova]

I think from the scan Rob Lucci is confirmed as playable.