Marvel Movies Thread

[RobbyBevard]

For something to be culturally relevant it has to hit all those things. There's no way around that.

Like wrestling does?

Buffy didn't deal with any issues that anyone was dealing with. Unless you count Willow's escapades through gaydom and I'm fairly certain that the 70s beat Buffy by a mile.

"Gaydom?" Really?

No one with a life talked about the latest episode of Buffy around the water cooler.

You do realize you're on a site dedicated to a japanese comic book and that every single person here is a geek or nerd to some degree, right?

And that you're sporting an avatar of a nearly naked sweaty man based on your love of a franchise that you clearly think important and want to talk about?

The show never brought up any issues in society and it never commented on the times we lived in.

All the time. It was incredibly reflective of the 90's, life in school in general, and influenced the tone of many things that came afterward. Nearly every episode of the first several seasons was a common problem many teens faced, exaggerated into a monster of the day. And yes, it did touch upon gay and lesbian issues, and presented them in an incredibly positive light with a very likeable character. (Censors wouldn't let Willow and Tara even kiss for nearly a year. While full blown straight sex was just fine.) Added in with the strong female leads and it had a lot of effect on how mainstream entertainment can deal with those sorts of things. Along with Xena and Ellen Degeneres, there was a time not all that long ago where it really WAS impossible to have a lesbian on tv, or a gay man that wasn't an outrageous stereotype.

If you look at everything you listed and if you look at Buffy, you would find that the show didn't tap into any of these things.

It tapped into all of them regularly.

You sort of proved my point with M*A*S*H*. In order for something to be culturally relevant it has to hit all those points. Saying that Buffy is culturally relevant is like saying Harry Potter is culturally relevant. They're popular yes. Insanely yes. But they're not relevant.

Pop culture and influence, and long term relevence to society as a whole are completely different things. If you're going to be that extreme, nothing on television ever has contributed to anything, aside from Star Trek inspiring a generation to grow up and make cell phones.

If history or communication students 50 years from now need to look at popular media that captured eras, defined generations, addressed real issues, was culturally relevant, no one is going to look up Buffy except the D students.

Well yeah. The entire medium is only a little older than 50 years. Most entertainment ages badly in the course of a century. I Love Lucy, and the Honeymooners are probably the only things you can point to from 50 years ago that anyone remembers. All in the Family and MASH might have footnotes in the year 2062 as having has a little impact on society of the past, but they're not going to vibe with the times at all by then when they're 80 year old shows.

JFK was shot 50 years ago. And we walked on the moon. But does anyone born in the last 30 years care at all beyond historical significance?

[Angelus Dominus]

Like wrestling does?

And here come the claws.

"Gaydom?" Really?

Really.

You do realize you're on a site dedicated to a japanese comic book and that every single person here is a geek or nerd to some degree, right?

Of course. We might talk about Buffy, or Naruto, or Bleach or something like that around our water coolers metaphorically speaking but nothing we talk about matters to people who aren't nerds or geeks. I doubt Congress is gearing up for the next chapter of One Piece.

And that you're sporting an avatar of a nearly naked sweaty man based on your love of a franchise that you clearly think important and want to talk about?

Ouch. This kitten has claws.

All the time. It was incredibly reflective of the 90's, life in school in general, and influenced the tone of many things that came afterward.

So did Wonder Years.

Nearly every episode of the first several seasons was a common problem many teens faced, exaggerated into a monster of the day.

What show were you watching?

And yes, it did touch upon gay and lesbian issues, and presented them in an incredibly positive light with a very likeable character. (Censors wouldn't let Willow and Tara even kiss for nearly a year. While full blown straight sex was just fine.) Added in with the strong female leads and it had a lot of effect on how mainstream entertainment can deal with those sorts of things. Along with Xena and Ellen Degeneres, there was a time not all that long ago where it really WAS impossible to have a lesbian on tv, or a gay man that wasn't an outrageous stereotype.

I take it you've never seen Lifetime.

It tapped into all of them regularly.

You only see those things in Buffy that you want to see. I mean a thread ago you slammed 90s Spider-Man because it didn't capture the essence of the comics. By the way, it did. And now you're an advocate for Buffy and you're pointing out things you claim it did when, it didn't do any of those things. This is not What's Hot with RobbyBevard. You only see this stuff in Buffy because you actually liked the show. Nevermind the fact that all Buffy did was capitalize on the emo lifestyle of tweens.

Pop culture and influence, and long term relevence to society as a whole are completely different things. If you're going to be that extreme, nothing on television ever has contributed to anything, aside from Star Trek inspiring a generation to grow up and make cell phones.

That's a lie and you know it. Star Trek are not we would have still had cellphones, smartphones, cool visors, the list goes on. Technology doesn't need television Robby. It grows and evolves on its own.

Well yeah. The entire medium is only a little older than 50 years. Most entertainment ages badly in the course of a century. I Love Lucy, and the Honeymooners are probably the only things you can point to from 50 years ago that anyone remembers. All in the Family and MASH might have footnotes in the year 2062 as having has a little impact on society of the past, but they're not going to vibe with the times at all by then when they're 80 year old shows.

It's a given they'll be less relevant over-time. But the key here is that they actually had "relevance." You credit Buffy and Ellen and Xena with making lesbians market friendly. B.S. I think Virginia Woolf had a jump on them by a century except most Americans are too retarded to read. Xena didn't start wearing flannel until season 4 and that was only because ratings plummeted and Universal needed to find some way to get their numbers up. SAME with Buffy. These shows didn't advocate same-sex relations because of some equality driven virtue. These cashcows reached a point where they couldn't be milked so their parent companies did what they needed to do. I don't give credit where it's not due. That's not me.

JFK was shot 50 years ago. And we walked on the moon. But does anyone born in the last 30 years care at all beyond historical significance?

Does anyone care about Buffy or the lifestyle of tortured 90s teens today? Of course not. Sorry to throw this out there but no one cares about teenagers. If Buffy did something to change that then maybe I'd give it some props. If it changed how we all think then mad ups. But to adults living in the real world, teens are just kids with unbalanced hormones who still aren't mature enough to make smart decisions. Know why people still think that? Because that's reality. To most normal people Buffy is just a tv show. How do I know this? Because it hasn't changed anything. If I go on any forum right now, right this moment and ask anyone, "Hey, how has Buffy the Vampire Slayer changed your life?" most people aren't going to know what I'm talking about.

[Sakonosolo]

Is he seriously trying to say that wrestling has any more of a cultural impact than Buffy? People still watch wrestling?

[Thousand Lion-chan]

Hasn't wrestling just become one giant joke now where the wrestlers do more acting out senseless story-lines than actual wrestling?

[Angelus Dominus]

Is he seriously trying to say that wrestling has any more of a cultural impact than Buffy? People still watch wrestling?

This another Twilight Tween trying to start some shit? For the retarded members of our audience this isn't wrestling vs Buffy it's what makes Buffy culturally relevant. For the record, more than 30 million people watch RAW each week. Sooooooooooo yeah dumbass I would say people still watch wrestling. If you're trolling you're really bad at it. I know emos like you blog about Buffy. You were probably one of those kids always slitting your wrists and shit because life is too hard.

What Angelus Dominus and RobbyBevard (the adults) are discussing is what puts Buffy over the top. What does it do that thousands of other shows haven't already done? How is it culturally relevant? THAT is the key issue here. When I think cultural relevance, when normal people not emo tweens think cultural relevance M*A*S*H* comes to mind, not Buffy.

[Nex]

2) No "real" institution has Buffy Studies. Just as there are no "real" institutions that take the show seriously.
3) The article sites Buffy Studies but doesn't list ONE university that dabbles in such Tom Foolery.

EDIT: Not being a dick. But I'm just wondering how a show that in most circles people just regard with a meh, is culturally relevant.

I'm just going to address this, as my University teaches a Buffy class. We also have classes based on MASH and Seinfeld. Hell, we also have classes dedicated to Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, and His Dark materials.

A class dedicated to Buffy is hardly a rarity.

[Sakonosolo]

Twilight tween lol. I have actually not watched Buffy, so I can't really add anything to the conversation. I just find it funny that wrestling was brought up in a conversation about cultural relevance.

[RobbyBevard]

You only see those things in Buffy that you want to see. I mean a thread ago you slammed 90s Spider-Man because it didn't capture the essence of the comics. By the way, it did. And now you're an advocate for Buffy and you're pointing out things you claim it did when, it didn't do any of those things. This is not What's Hot with RobbyBevard. You only see this stuff in Buffy because you actually liked th show. Nevermind the fact that all Buffy did was capitalize on the emo lifestyle of tweens.

Actually I didn't really like Buffy at all. But I can recognize the effects and influence it had, the recognition it received, and that people talked about it.

And I said the 90's spiderman cartoon sucked, because it did. So did the 90's Spiderman comics. It was a bad era for Spidey.

That's a lie and you know it. Star Trek are not we would have still had cellphones, smartphones, cool visors, the list goes on. Technology doesn't need television Robby. It grows and evolves on its own.

Something has to inspire kids to go into those fields to begin with. Interview anyone at Nasa, most of them will say they were inspired by Star Trek as kids. Archeologists? How many get into the field because Indiana Jones was cool (only to later discover that in real life its super boring?) People that study dinosaurs? Dolphins? News reporters? How many people saw the Crocodile Hunter and came to have a whole new idea about dangerous animals? Those that go on to be writers, or costume designers, or seamstresses, or any sort of creative field?

Television is such a huge part of everyday life, what airs on it has a MASSIVE effect on the world, and the generations that grow up on it.

Does anyone care about Buffy or the lifestyle of tortured 90s teens today?

Does anyone care about All in the Family or the lifestyle of bigots in the 70's today? The show is still good and watchable and it sticks around for that reason, but is it still relevent 40 years later? In ten years will anyone care about the lifestyle of kids of 2012?

Social issues change. they're mostly relevent in the era they're discussed in. Then the issues are addressed, overcome, become part of the world, and the world changes and moves on.

[Angelus Dominus]

I'm just going to address this, as my University teaches a Buffy class. We also have classes based on MASH and Seinfeld. Hell, we also have classes dedicated to Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, and His Dark materials.

A class dedicated to Buffy is hardly a rarity.

How many universities in America teach a class on Buffy?

[RobbyBevard]

This another Twilight Tween trying to start some shit? For the retarded members of our audience this isn't wrestling vs Buffy it's what makes Buffy culturally relevant. For the record, more than 30 million people watch RAW each week. Sooooooooooo yeah dumbass I would say people still watch wrestling. If you're trolling you're really bad at it. I know emos like you blog about Buffy. You were probably one of those kids always slitting your wrists and shit because life is too hard.

And you know what?

You're done here.

[Sniper King]

This another Twilight Tween trying to start some shit? For the retarded members of our audience this isn't wrestling vs Buffy it's what makes Buffy culturally relevant. For the record, more than 30 million people watch RAW each week. Sooooooooooo yeah dumbass I would say people still watch wrestling. If you're trolling you're really bad at it. I know emos like you blog about Buffy. You were probably one of those kids always slitting your wrists and shit because life is too hard.

What Angelus Dominus and RobbyBevard (the adults) are discussing is what puts Buffy over the top. What does it do that thousands of other shows haven't already done? How is it culturally relevant? THAT is the key issue here. When I think cultural relevance, when normal people not emo tweens think cultural relevance M*A*S*H* comes to mind, not Buffy.

If you're going to claim to be one of the "adults", at least try not to call people names and make fun of them.

[Sakonosolo]

He seems to really hate Buffy for some reason.

[Kaiolino]

Comparing Buffy to Twilight is offensive. Buffy Summers ia a symbol of female empowerment and one of the most fully developed female characters ever. The entire show is full of feminist ideals. How is that, in any way, like Twilight?

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

The similarities pretty much stop with human loves vampire. And in Buffy it's presented as a bad thing.

[RobbyBevard]

Before this turns into a thread of insulting wrestling, or anyone making an assumption about my opinion on it based on what turned out to be the antics of a troll...

Spoony talks about wrestling and has amusing stories to tell about it. And there's a thread on this site that several of our better members frequent. So it's not all bad. I'm not the demographic, it's not for me, I haven't watched it since I was 8. But it has fans and I won't argue that point in the least.

I only brought it up in the context of *this* argument as a counterpoint to... Buffy having fans apparently? Yeah, not sure how that happened. Wrestling is important because 30 million people watch it... but only 7 million people watching Buffy 15 years ago isn't.

[Nex]

Nevermind the fact that all Buffy did was capitalize on the emo lifestyle of tweens.

All credibility to your argument was lost right here. The only time I could possibly by this was season six. And even that doesn't hold up as an argument.

It's a given they'll be less relevant over-time. But the key here is that they actually had "relevance." You credit Buffy and Ellen and Xena with making lesbians market friendly. B.S. I think Virginia Woolf had a jump on them by a century except most Americans are too retarded to read. Xena didn't start wearing flannel until season 4 and that was only because ratings plummeted and Universal needed to find some way to get their numbers up. SAME with Buffy. These shows didn't advocate same-sex relations because of some equality driven virtue. These cashcows reached a point where they couldn't be milked so their parent companies did what they needed to do. I don't give credit where it's not due. That's not me.

Ah yes, because Buffy not even reaching its peak in ratings or story telling when Willow and Tara first became a thing is the show reaching a point where it couldn't be milked for money.
Never mind the fact that Willow/Tara would never had happened had Green not decided to leave the show.

Does anyone care about Buffy or the lifestyle of tortured 90s teens today? Of course not. Sorry to throw this out there but no one cares about teenagers. If Buffy did something to change that then maybe I'd give it some props. If it changed how we all think then mad ups. But to adults living in the real world, teens are just kids with unbalanced hormones who still aren't mature enough to make smart decisions. Know why people still think that? Because that's reality. To most normal people Buffy is just a tv show. How do I know this? Because it hasn't changed anything. If I go on any forum right now, right this moment and ask anyone, "Hey, how has Buffy the Vampire Slayer changed your life?" most people aren't going to know what I'm talking about.

Here's one for you:
One of my very best friends is gay. I've known him since we were both 9 (which, by the way Buffy was still on the air then. Season six had just started.) He knew even then that he was different, because he was attracted to the boys in our class. He was always very open about it. so no this isn't a 'Buffy helped him come out' story.
However, we little kids didn't quite get it. So, one day during recess we were talking, and he was trying to explain it. He was struggling, so he started reaching for examples. He said that he was like Willow and Tara. I had no idea what he was talking about. So that got him going on and on about Buffy.
The next time I went over to his house, he made sure it was a Tuesday, so I would sit and watch Buffy with him. That night as the musical episode. The very first episode of Buffy I ever saw was "Once More With Feeling"
I had no idea what was going on, who these people were, or anything, but I loved it.

As the seasons started coming out on DVD my mom bought them for me, and I fell even more in love.

To this day I credit Buffy for giving me my love of TV (and Film), Horror, Musicals, and a good story. It inspired me to use my mother's camera to make my own shows and movies.

It what started me on a path that has led to me now being halfway through film school on my way to becoming a director.

So that's how Buffy changed my life.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Aww, he got banned? And right after I typed out that long response. Lame.

Not enough sweaty men in speedos?

Well, there was that one season 2 episode where Xander joined the swim team. He rocked that speedo.

[Conekiller]

So...Avengers?

When Coulson visits Stark and Pepper in the tower near the beginning, she asks Coulson what became of "the Chalice". I'm assuming this is some kind of reference to a comic thing?

[Nex]

So...Avengers?

When Coulson visits Stark and Pepper in the tower near the beginning, she asks Coulson what became of "the Chalice". I'm assuming this is some kind of reference to a comic thing?

Pretty sure it's Cellist. As in someone who plays the Cello.
That's why Stark brings it back up when Captain asks if Coulson was married.

[Conekiller]

Ahhhh, that makes sense.

[tatermoog]

If anything, Buffy's cultural relevance has been ratcheted up in the years since it went off the air.

Here's a whole website devoted to people taking Whedon (too) seriously: http://www.alysa316.com/Whedonology/

Sure, most of these are marginal. But some of them are not.

[baby-boo]

Didn't know of Whedon until I saw him announced as the director. Didn't realize he was so popular until people started talking 'bout the chemistry in Buffy.