Naruto and Bleach: Let's put this thread to bed I

[RobbyBevard]

Speaking of Naruto, where did part 2 become irredeemable for you? This is how I'd chart the series' downfall

The rescue Sasuke arc in part 1 was already pretty terrible. The start of Sasuke's horrendous unexplained downward spiral, as well as Naruto's unexplained "he's like a brother to me!". Dues ex machinas (namely the sand trio showing up to save everyone's ass...and bone guy dying from a time limit rather than actually being beaten), characters living that had great death scenes, nothing but fights for a year, and very thin plot stretched over a year, followed by a conluding fight that sucked. (The anime fixed it some, but...) People hated it at the time, but there was still so much good will saved up from the Chuunin exams and Tsunade arc, people let it pass at the time in the hopes it would be better int he future.

People like to say part 2 was the obvious cut line, because then they can pretend all of part 1 was good. But it wasn't.

[Cyan D. Funk]

Part 2 actually picked up somewhat when we were introduced to the Kumo nin.

Then that got squandered when Bee and the Raikage became Naruto's Witnesses.

[Big_Bad_Lith]

Do you know what happens when there's nothing to talk about in Felch? Horrible things.

Did you know I recently acquired a PHD in Horribleness?

ah, for Naruto threaders who don't know: when things get too quiet, or when I just feel like unleashing sadness upon the world, I post awful bleach fanart. The theme today? Nudity!

Spoiler:

I have no idea who that lady is, why she wants to rape/fight Ichigo69, or where half the people's noses went. But I do know that the real Kenpachi would not be ashamed of his nudity.

Spoiler:

Naked androgynous chibis reaching for a star as they fall into a mob of christmas tree demons? Oh, Deviantart, you always know how to please!

Spoiler:

suddenly I never want to eat pizza again.

Spoiler:

Yes, happy birthday to Saila-chan indeed. Hey, watch those hands, Renji! If you touch Byakuka like that, he's never be able to get married! and WAIT WHERE IS SHUNSUI'S OTHER HAND

HE LOOKS WAY TO PLEASED ABOUT HIMSELF

Spoiler:

There are some artists who just can't draw certain things. Rob Liefeld couldn't draw feet (among other things) and always tried to hide them behind things. Kishimoto can't draw women, so he keeps them off panel as much as possible. But you have to admire this artist, who, despite the fact that they are fundamentally incapable of drawing anything remotely resembling human hands, chose to draw an image with an outstretched hand as the primary focus. That takes balls. Which is ironic, since the artist was almost certainly female.

Spoiler:

You will see this ass in your dreams. Forever.

[piratemarimo]

............................................... Sigh. Once again, another hideous episode of projectile vomiting. For the love god, I don't care if it's off-topic, we need to talk about Pokemon Special before we all become as blind as Itachi.

[Nobodyman]

The rescue Sasuke arc in part 1 was already pretty terrible. The start of Sasuke's horrendous unexplained downward spiral, as well as Naruto's unexplained "he's like a brother to me!". Dues ex machinas (namely the sand trio showing up to save everyone's ass...and bone guy dying from a time limit rather than actually being beaten), characters living that had great death scenes, nothing but fights for a year, and very thin plot stretched over a year, followed by a conluding fight that sucked. (The anime fixed it some, but...) People hated it at the time, but there was still so much good will saved up from the Chuunin exams and Tsunade arc, people let it pass at the time in the hopes it would be better int he future.

People like to say part 2 was the obvious cut line, because then they can pretend all of part 1 was good. But it wasn't.

Yeah, the Sasuke Rescue arc was pretty bad overall, but I think it still had some pretty good moments. The point is, I don't think Naruto became "irredeemable" at that point. I don't think even the first 3 arcs of part two (Sasori, Sai, Hidan/Kakuzu) were irredeemable because, if by some miracle Kishi had gotten his act together after that, we could have just dismissed them as the "bad arcs" of Naruto. But no, it just kept getting, and everything from Orochimaru's death, to Sasuke vs. Itachi, to the reveal of Itachi actually being a hero was where the series became irreversibly broken and thus irredeemable.

[Cyan D. Funk]

Hey guys is there anything new to talk abou-

Spoiler:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...es-d4aghps.jpg

[S.C. Amigo]

I was wondering. Did Kishi every say what made the Black Lightning stuff from Raikage's dad so special? More amps? Higher heat? Able to bypass insulators? Or is it only because it looks kinda cool? (Probably that).

[IceBorg]

Hey guys is there anything new to talk abou-

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/...ions/Whack.gif

You were so waiting to use that somewhere.

[Kareem Said]

The rescue Sasuke arc in part 1 was already pretty terrible. The start of Sasuke's horrendous unexplained downward spiral, as well as Naruto's unexplained "he's like a brother to me!". Dues ex machinas (namely the sand trio showing up to save everyone's ass...and bone guy dying from a time limit rather than actually being beaten), characters living that had great death scenes, nothing but fights for a year, and very thin plot stretched over a year, followed by a conluding fight that sucked. (The anime fixed it some, but...) People hated it at the time, but there was still so much good will saved up from the Chuunin exams and Tsunade arc, people let it pass at the time in the hopes it would be better int he future.

People like to say part 2 was the obvious cut line, because then they can pretend all of part 1 was good. But it wasn't.

I personally don't think the Retrieval arc was that bad. At least the fights were well done and impressive visually. Kishimoto was actually putting effort into the art back then. And it was cool that Kishimoto actually used the secondary characters and gave them badass moments. If only it weren't for all those flaws you mentioned which,... yeah I can't really argue.

Although I disagree about Sasuke's spiral being unexplained. It more or less made sense. He felt that Naruto was becoming better than him and that his goal of surpassing/murdering Itachi was falling out of his reach. So he decided to make the most desperate move by turning to Orochimaru in order to gain power. Obviously I hate Sasuke (mostly for the part 2 stuff) but his actions seemed pretty sensible based on his character. I agree about Naruto's sudden bromance being out of left field though. Something the hardcore fanbase tends to ignore. And I also pride myself because I always felt the Naruto vs Sasuke fight was probably the worst one of the bunch and not the "pinnacle of Naruto fights" which is what the bigtime fans say.

Don't get me wrong though. I don't think the Retrieval arc is good by any means. Because as well done and emotional as the fights are, they're all tainted in some way.

Choji vs Jirobo. Neji vs Spider Guy. They both ended up living, which takes away a good deal of the emotion that made those fights great.
Kiba vs Twins. Shikamaru vs Flute Chick. Quite good up until the Sand ended up bailing them out with a deus ex.
Lee and Gaara vs Kimomaru. A double deus ex.

It's very possible the main reason I like the Retrieval arc is because as flawed as it is, it's still far, far better than most of Part Two. Because you could really tell Kishimoto was putting effort into it by looking at the art. Or at least far, far more effort than he puts into the current series if this war is any indicator. Still, I agree it's not nearly as good as people say. It's an average arc. Which is better than almost all of part two.

Naruto's golden age is undeniably the first 16 volumes with Zabuza and Chunin Exams. And there was so, so, so much more Kishimoto could do with this story. You've said it, I've said it, but it's very, very true which is why it'll keep on being said. And that's why Naruto sucks. Even if I still have a soft spot for the early volumes I must say: Fuck Naruto. You can do so much better. But I've said enough. Best not to repeat one self.

Btw Robby. I remember at some point in the Nausicaa thread, you said that some years back you spent a lot of time writing posts about all of the potential Naruto could have achieved to become one of the great Shonen masterpieces along with One Piece, FMA, HxH, Dragon Ball etc. I'd really like to see these posts. Because it's always good to see an intelligent individual ranting about how much Kishimoto screwed up all of his good ideas. Just see if you can find some of them, because I'm sure plenty of people here would like to see them.

[MasterKingJC]

and speaking of Aizen, what the hell did I just find.

[S.C. Amigo]

I personally don't think the Retrieval arc was that bad. At least the fights were well done and impressive visually. Kishimoto was actually putting effort into the art back then. And it was cool that Kishimoto actually used the secondary characters and gave them badass moments. If only it weren't for all those flaws you mentioned which,... yeah I can't really argue.

Although I disagree about Sasuke's spiral being unexplained. It more or less made sense. He felt that Naruto was becoming better than him and that his goal of surpassing/murdering Itachi was falling out of his reach. So he decided to make the most desperate move by turning to Orochimaru in order to gain power. Obviously I hate Sasuke (mostly for the part 2 stuff) but his actions seemed pretty sensible based on his character. I agree about Naruto's sudden bromance being out of left field though. Something the hardcore fanbase tends to ignore. And I also pride myself because I always felt the Naruto vs Sasuke fight was probably the worst one of the bunch and not the "pinnacle of Naruto fights" which is what the bigtime fans say.

Don't get me wrong though. I don't think the Retrieval arc is good by any means. Because as well done and emotional as the fights are, they're all tainted in some way.

Choji vs Jirobo. Neji vs Spider Guy. They both ended up living, which takes away a good deal of the emotion that made those fights great.
Kiba vs Twins. Shikamaru vs Flute Chick. Quite good up until the Sand ended up bailing them out with a deus ex.
Lee and Gaara vs Kimomaru. A double deus ex.

It's very possible the main reason I like the Retrieval arc is because as flawed as it is, it's still far, far better than most of Part Two. Because you could really tell Kishimoto was putting effort into it by looking at the art. Or at least far, far more effort than he puts into the current series if this war is any indicator. Still, I agree it's not nearly as good as people say. It's an average arc. Which is better than almost all of part two.

Naruto's golden age is undeniably the first 16 volumes with Zabuza and Chunin Exams. And there was so, so, so much more Kishimoto could do with this story. You've said it, I've said it, but it's very, very true which is why it'll keep on being said. And that's why Naruto sucks. Even if I still have a soft spot for the early volumes I must say: Fuck Naruto. You can do so much better. But I've said enough. Best not to repeat one self.

Btw Robby. I remember at some point in the Nausicaa thread, you said that some years back you spent a lot of time writing posts about all of the potential Naruto could have achieved to become one of the great Shonen masterpieces along with One Piece, FMA, HxH, Dragon Ball etc. I'd really like to see these posts. Because it's always good to see an intelligent individual ranting about how much Kishimoto screwed up all of his good ideas. Just see if you can find some of them, because I'm sure plenty of people here would like to see them.

Talking about that arc brings up another problem about Naruto: No one caring one about about the Sound. You'd think somebody in the Leaf would care that their invaders are without their leader, and even a throwaway line saying Kabuto now controls it could explain where he gets all the sacrifices from would be alright, but no.

[sniperking323]

So Renji's been training to be able to fight Aizen?.....Why!?...He's incapacitated!

Hopefully, I'm just reading that second-to-last panel wrong >:(

[igetownd]

Is this cool? I think so

[piratemarimo]

Dat Rock Lee.

Pretty damn awesome. I demand to know where part 2 is. I think there should have been more clones disappearing, though. and was that really the best Naruto they could find? Needs more blond.

[MasterKingJC]

Is this cool? I think so

Why can't the manga and anime be like this??

Take notes, Kishi.

[igetownd]

Dat Rock Lee.

Pretty damn awesome. I demand to know where part 2 is. I think there should have been more clones disappearing, though. and was that really the best Naruto they could find? Needs more blond.

It's not a high budget Hollywood flick, you know? And this part 1 just came out. Hopefully they can get part 2.

[piratemarimo]

It's not a high budget Hollywood flick, you know? And this part 1 just came out. Hopefully they can get part 2.

True.. and well, the fight choreography was so much better than the actual series coughsasukevsitachicough. Yeah, I really want to see the conclusion. Do the creators have some kind of explanation about how they did it? I'd like to read that.

[igetownd]

Why can't the manga and anime be like this??

Take notes, Kishi.

I think he took too many notes from advisors and editors, etc. He should be a purist like Oda, and just goes with his own imagination.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

True.. and well, the fight choreography was so much better than the actual series coughsasukevsitachicough. Yeah, I really want to see the conclusion. Do the creators have some kind of explanation about how they did it? I'd like to read that.

On their youtube channel I think.

[piratemarimo]

Looks like we're going to be waiting a few weeks before part 2. Their budget was $4,000.

[Truth]

Well, looks like Renji's about to beat up that shemale.