Hiroy tell me who you want me to kill
I'll do it for you man
Hiroy tell me who you want me to kill
I'll do it for you man
LS Zoro looking 4 Vivis
If you asked me that a few months ago, I'll take up the offer quickly. But now? I don't really feel it's right to pester mods into giving into my demands. I'm sure they did the best they could at the time. Other than that, I'm not sure what to say. I don't have much problems with the staff. Well, atleast not anymore.
...and then say this?That said, this thread is a tad pointless in my opinion. We are allowed to give feedback if we want to, aren't we? Good of people to start talking about this, though.
You just pointed out the flaw in your own argument.
Just wanted to give you the opportunity to speak if you felt you didn't have it before. If you're alright with it now then cool, that's fine. And truth be told, I'm cool with most of the staff myself. But the point was simply that... sometimes these issues do arise and it's nice to know we can discuss them.Originally Posted by Hiroy
Last edited by Jazzy Jinx; September 23rd, 2011 at 01:34 PM.
AP demands more Freedom!!!
WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!
By "it's good", I meant that it is good that people are now discussing the possibility of giving feedback, as it seems not all have known it is feasible or allowed. I always thought it was clear that we could do so. That's why the wondering.
In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836
Thanks Dryish. Now everyone knows what they need to do to earn their freedom of speech
WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!
- to ask reasoning for actions staff have taken towards threads, members and even a lack of presence in the community.
- debating infractions given to yourself, or even to others which may be down to a vendetta or mere sensitivity on the subject with that particular staff member.
- also we've had several times where someone has asked for a thread on to get a 'NO', and the thread locked without any debate or feedback from us the people.
- a lot of the time i've had several people mention dislike for the ways certain staff undertake but can't say anything without the risk of being targeted.
- some issues are too big to have one member make a decision on. It would be nice to have a voice of a couple of people to know its the wisest route.
- suggesting changes in forum powers or even voting for a candidate to become part of the staff. (like we all felt with you long before it happened)
Again most of the big issues are between two people (staff/member) which can be unfair as the pm method doesn't mean the people making the decisions will ever have to justify and action if its deemed unfair.Using this thread to discuss things of concern--I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity.
Some issues are and should be on a one to one basis of course, but a fair deal shouldn't be private and me and a mass of others have voiced that on the park before. Either through pm's, post, fb or irc. This is most apparent when someone is bold enough to voice their concern, and have a hoard of people agreeing whole heartedly.
This sounds more like you think the staff are afraid of contradicting each other or having different opinions which might jeopardise their own position/relationship. It would explain why we haven't had anyone bold enough to vote yet, especially as I've seen a fair amount viewing the thread.They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum--that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions.
Only if the person that feels like injustice has happened would like it to be made public. This would also dissuade staff from making bold moves without taking the time to see it from both perspectives. Don't you think people with power should be held to account of mistakes? not with any punishment but maybe just giving the option to be the better man/woman to admit a fault.Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact?
This forum is not to dissimilar to governments and other powers. Democracy is the key to unifying the community as seen throughout the pages of history.
Every single thing that can't be done via pm, that doesn't justify a thread or can't be put in the one liner questions thread which is a hell of a lot.Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?
I know its a really tricky and unnerving idea for the staff but we could try it, and if it fails remove it. You never know it could best the best thing that ever happened to this place.
Any doubts about the public's thoughts should be answered by the current poll figures.
Side note: sorry iv'e got loads more but im trying to cook and type at the same time.
I can't say I fully agree with Smudge so I'll just let Dryish take that. I think he voiced why those propositions aren't necessarily good in his posts.
I'd like to point out that the nature of this thread is as I have covered to a small degree in several of my posts, but more so to have the approval from the staff and members if they think it will work and improve the community.
If the answer is yes then we could lock this and have another thread, or rename this thread, or perhaps even make an entire new system up all together which will solve the confusion a few members here seem to have in regards to its purpose.
Oh and thanks for the feedback from the staff so far. Its really cool to see how you see things. As i said earlier its about sharing our views and perspectives on all manor of things to achieve/accomplish a better community, or at least one that is more at peace with the goings on.
Side note: if Freedom votes 'no' I say we change his name to oppression. Or just have an alt he can switch back and fourth to depending on his mood.
It'll be good cop bad cop with one personality behind it all lol
Also wanted to point out how my time conversing with staff on irc has given me a much better insight into the daily work you folks have to deal with which is really great as it offered me a better understanding of why half the stuff here actually happens. But as i've mentioned before irc is only visited by a minute amount of staff at random intervals, thus the necessity of having it in black and white for all to mull over. Its a shame most of the members here haven't had a chance to see the thoughts and inner workings of the folks that have to do the paperwork.
*reads dryish's post*
I'm going to enjoy picking the bones off this theory mwhahahah!
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
ALSO CAN I POINT OUT THIS IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT THE STAFF OF AP AS PEOPLE ARE FOCUSING TOWARDS. This branches out in to all corners of the forums goings on so don't think some jihad, revolution, war that is going to occur because its not.
The ultimate aim of this is to do the opposite and open up better communication and understanding between us all.
Last edited by Smudger; September 23rd, 2011 at 02:15 PM.
A lot of us have been holding back from this thread because we were curious what you guys would come up with on your own, and I'm actually fairly impressed that there isn't more dumb. But in the end, a lot of this stuff simply isn't up for debate, such as bannings. No, we don't want to get a rundown of a person's popularity every time we're on the edge of banning someone. What a horrifying thought. Also many of us post a decent amount. If someone sits in a remote corner of the forum where they never see us, well, that's too bad. It'd be hypocritical of them to complain about us not posting there when they aren't exactly well traveled, themselves.
If someone has something they want to say, there are ways to say it. PM's, visitor messages, posts, or even making a thread in this subforum. If the person is too shy for that, well, I don't see how that's anyone's problem but their own.
In the end, I really don't get the point of this thread. It's been up for 2 days and nothing has come of it but debate about whether this thread should even exist or not.
1. The staff communicates regularly with each other. So big or controversial decisions are discussed beforehand usually between several people.
2. I'm sorry if after 4 years and 12941 posts in every section of this board, you feel you don't know me that well.
3.The Naruto thread isn't going back to what it once was, for a number of reasons. Just isn't happening.
I suppose I'll add in my opinion even though this thread seems to be heading towards its downward spiral. As an option 3, I do agree with the sentiment that we should be able to give feedback but I'm also of the opinion that not everyone's feedback is exactly... well, substantial. And I've also addressed before that yeah, it wouldn't be fair to expect the half of the staff that isn't as social as the other half to start posting or going out of their way when they might be busy or just plain uninterested in participating in discussions.
It's just that, even in the cases of social staff members, I still feel like there's a disconnect there. And this is coming from someone who actually talks to quite a few staff members. Some people might see staff members posting and get the wrong idea of who they are. Like for instance, I know taboo probably gets misunderstood a lot. I know this because I read the "I was banned..." thread from like... a year back.
Now, how to remedy this disconnect... to be quite frank, I don't have an answer for it. But it is what causes members to think, "Oh, how should I bring this issue up? Who should I bring it to? How should I speak? Formally or informally? What if they chew me out?" etc. etc. What if I fucked up once? What if that means my voice doesn't matter anymore? People fuck up and people have issues. It's been pointed out before, a lot of members obviously have a lot of things they'd want to address but have just been silent about. If nothing else, I think it's a good way to gather perspective.
Personally, I'm not suggesting a democracy, just a place to drop input. So I think I'm suggesting a thread like this... only with a different angle. And as an option 3, if someone says some atrociously stupid shit, boot them out of the thread until such a time that they could be seen allowed to talk again. When you showcase that the staff is willing to listen, the members react thusly. Yeah, we're told that we can talk to you guys... but how many people truly feel that way?
You can say, "Oh, well that's their problem for not speaking up" but is that a truly fair alternative? That's condoning some kind of "only the strong survive" mentality that frankly, I don't agree with. But ultimately, you know, it's up to the staff. I think it would be an interesting way to see if the community is able to better come together and understand one another but maybe the ideas are just too vast and different for something like this to work.
The thing is we have weeded out the majority of fungus here quite well over the past few years leaving a decent proportion of good/down to earth people. Its probably the manga section that has left you a little scarred. Tis a place of evil nowadays.
But what about some one the infractions themselves? it seems the current trend is all points tend to have no expiry date regardless of how minor they were. Realistically a year should be the limit, unless of course its horrendous which usually just goes straight to ban. Plus you have to keep in mind most people come back with a clean slate anyway so there isn't as much of an incentive to be good again. Think of it like your driving license.....if you've been bad and you are on your last warning you will make an extra effort to behave in the hope you can get those expiration dates off and start fresh, or at least learn a lesson and not want to go through the tedious task of treading on eggshells so much.But in the end, a lot of this stuff simply isn't up for debate, such as bannings.
Well that's just the gossip side of it which i don't think is relevant to the thread, merely if the action taken was justifiable, or possibly based on a war between two people which should be dealt with through talks and not a simple hammer. Most issues we have had between people can be solved this way but never gets the chance as pm isn't the best course of action. Having a jury in the background will encourage ego's to go and negotiations and understanding to take place.No, we don't want to get a rundown of a person's popularity every time we're on the edge of banning someone.
I'd say half, and that is only due to the new staff members that are amongst the ranks. Truth is most of the old standing admins/mods have got work and family and don't have time to sift through the extreme volume of text. Hence why we have had several admins leave in the past.What a horrifying thought. Also many of us post a decent amount.
Staff shouldn't confine themselves to one spot either though. its something that definitely needs to be improved upon. Its just a little sad to feel so out of touch with many of the old members that were once like me but have made positions here and stopped taking an interest or revealing just how human they are.If someone sits in a remote corner of the forum where they never see us, well, that's too bad.
True enough but most of us visit all sections of the forum. Some just don't post in the sections as they feel either out of their depth or have nothing new to add to the table. I'm like that in the gaming section....frequent it a lot but rarely get a chance to add something or beat people to news and updates.It'd be hypocritical of them to complain about us not posting there when they aren't exactly well traveled, themselves.
So if i had an issue with you i couldn't resolve how would we resolve that. Putting on your wall isn't really the route as its more a social feature, a thread might inflame the situation, and a pm wouldn't be open to let people see if a fair course of action is taken.If someone has something they want to say, there are ways to say it. PM's, visitor messages, posts, or even making a thread in this subforum. If the person is too shy for that, well, I don't see how that's anyone's problem but their own.
The landslide poll outcome should give away that a good deal of people feel its necessary.In the end, I really don't get the point of this thread. It's been up for 2 days and nothing has come of it but debate about whether this thread should even exist or not.
I think your just worried about a grand conflict spawning when the posts here so far should prove the majority of us are mature enough to discuss the important issues that arise on a daily basis.
Funnily enough we don't. Its usually banter with no exposure into anything outside the forum. I'd love to see you on irc or something every now and then for a chat and get to know you a little more as more often then not as you know we've clashed over misunderstandings or trivial stuff in the na...n..naru *coughs out blood* the glossy black thing. lol It got ridiculous for a while and only really found a common ground through pm's which works but is hard to fully elaborate of explain what you mean without misunderstanding and paranoia setting in.2. I'm sorry if after 4 years and 12941 posts in every section of this board, you feel you don't know me that well.
And nobody minds it as you've given your reasons why. You'd be amazed at how much we mere members feel in the dark about this kinda stuff due to the staff not thinking it warranted/needed to be put in black and white.3.The Naruto thread isn't going back to what it once was, for a number of reasons. Just isn't happening.
I don't want to mention names of a few staff i originally had issues with over the years, but after speaking to them through pm, fb, ap and irc I've sussed out the personalities a bit better and recognised original fears i had were untrue. Me for example, i'm often mistaken for stuff when i only mean it as banter or just dry humour, though I think or hope people would agree i've made significant changes thanks to feedback and conversations i've had with people in the places i mentioned above.
Last edited by Smudger; September 23rd, 2011 at 03:20 PM.
Well, without talking to them i don`t think you get to know anybody here. When some are to shy to post on a i-net forum then iam sorry for them, but thats not a reason why everyone else has to post here private stuff so that everyone who never posts in here gets to know those people.A lot of members don't do that stuff because they're either shy in general, intimidated, self-conscious, disgruntled or passive or whatever. What works for you or me doesn't work for everyone. And it's certainly not fair of you to come in fuming and being like, "Oh dur... Just tak to them!!!?!"Thats why you can view them on the forum leader site..that automatically shows that they work here for you guys..everything beyond that you want to know could be easily asked via PM and who doesn`t do that,i think doesn`t rly want to know more. Also you don`t have the right to know anything about them just because they`re mods here..thats their own decision who they`re telling stuff and who doesn`t get to know more.Consider also that we just want to have the right to know who to be proud of.
The epic battle of BusterCall vs. Don is decided !!!
And the results are 3:2 for Don..
And infractions are permanent because that's the default setting for them and they don't get handed out that often and we're pretty lenient about them. If someone gets one, having the reminder down the line is helpful. If its from a year or two years prior, thats taken into consideration. We don't even automatically ban someone after three strikes or anything. But generally if someone is acting up enough to get infractions in the first place, especially two or three in short order, well, they need the slap on the wrist and we need the note that lets us know they've been given warnings before. They don't impede anything you can do on the forum and I think they're even invisible to everyone but the user and the mods, so... not a big deal?
I work in comics and I post here. There really isn't much else. I have no life. Comics eats it. I work 15 hours a day most of the time, then sleep. The threads I post in should reveal my interests and what I do in my free time pretty well? If I'm in the Disney thread and talking about the first time I saw Goofy Movie 14 years ago and why its my favorite, then... isn't that insight? If I make a thread about the Muppets and set it up as a romantic comedy thread to help carry the joke of the trailer, and say "I love romantic comedies" isn't that an insight? If I'm excited about Okamiden or Pokemon and talk about it for months and give status updates as I make my way through the game? If I mess with the thread title of the Naruto thread, thats my personality and what amuses me.Funnily enough we don't. Its usually banter with no exposure into anything outside the forum.
I'm not about to start blogging "Fed the cat. Went to work. Sat in front of the computer. For lunch today I had a hotdog. Went home, had supper. Played the video game I've been talking about in the thread about that video game for the last two months. Watched a movie that I've been talking about all week."
I really don't understand what it is you want.
Last edited by Robby; September 23rd, 2011 at 03:59 PM.
Like Gekko for instance, he's a cool guy but he's usually busy. I know this so I leave him alone. Do you know this? Does everyone else know this? He's approachable, sure. But I wouldn't want to bother him to help me with something when I know the dude is busy. So who else can I approach? That kind of shit.
And even though it has nothing to do with my actual point, "a manga forum isn't a good place to get to know someone for real". Seriously? You're going to play that card? You're going to shit all over anyone who's ever made an online friend before? Or that it's a kind of friendship that's less or inferior because we're not holding hands and skipping through the meadows?
Smudge and Nami are going out. Is their relationship less or fake? Mind you that, once again, this has nothing to do with my actual point, but it is a mentality that I can't stand seeing.
They don't need to post anything private. They just get our feedback and choose to comment if they want to.Well, without talking to them i don`t think you get to know anybody here. When some are to shy to post on a i-net forum then iam sorry for them, but thats not a reason why everyone else has to post here private stuff so that everyone who never posts in here gets to know those people just because they`re mods.
I don't know what half the people on that list do.Thats why you can view them on the forum leader site..that automatically shows that they work here for you guys..everything beyond that you want to know could be easily asked via PM and who doesn`t do that,i think doesn`t rly want to know more.
Last edited by Jazzy Jinx; September 23rd, 2011 at 04:07 PM.
We do this in our free time, its not a full time job. We just had a large staff shake up for people that don't have as much time to dedicate here anymore, and promotions of a couple people that do.
You can report stuff. It goes to all mods and admins. Whoever is available and sees it first, deals with it, you don't have to approach a specific person. That simple.
I don't know, maybe I'm the only bugged by it. Truth be told, it isn't a big deal and I'm not expecting the staff to come out with their life stories or anything like that. I just figure that some issues are more general sometimes and not necessarily capable of being resolved by one staff member. It's true that the threads you mentioned get discussed here but without a general feedback thread, it almost feels like a lot of things go by without a word.
And this kind of thread is going to pop up again. It always does. It's not even that I'm condoning heavy staff criticism or something, I'm more of the opinion that it should just be an input thread, not a critical thread. You could make the argument that this entire sub-forum serves that purpose but then, how many people have the nerves to actually make a thread? Know what I mean?
But eh... at most I just wanted to throw the idea out there. If the staff feels they don't want to do this then no one is in a position to demand otherwise. Certainly not myself of all people.
Last edited by Jazzy Jinx; September 23rd, 2011 at 04:19 PM. Reason: It makes for perspective gathering for both sides which is something I support. Helps us understand one another and shit.
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