Chapter 649: "The Bream and Flounder Dance"- Discussion

[Kokolores]

My question to all those people arguing over shirahoshi and her power.

First of all, isn't it kind of the fishfolk's goal right now to leave fishman island and migrate to the SURFACE? So isn't talk of Big Mom and all other factors regarding fishman island kind of pointless?

Next, Shirahoshi is not only an ancient weapon, she is also a GIANT MERMAID, who is attractive. Recall Mr. Caribou and his comment on her worth. Even if people don't know that she is an ancient weapon there are still many who would go after her for just the slave trade. Now if she ever needs to defend herself, there is again another chance at her "secret" getting out.

Next Wadastumi or whatever his name is, is also free, somewhere in the world. Not hard to imagine that he might mention her to someone wherever he is, whether its a marine, a pirate or who knows. 30,000 humans. Do they know? who knows, but its more likely that 1 out of those 30,000 know versus expecting 0 out of 30,000 knowing. It actually really unrealistic that every single one of those people are just clueless to this. But lets say they are. All it takes is ONE of those 30,000 people's accounts to reach the garousei's ears. If they do indeed no anything about the ancient weapons, they will instantly recognize that multiple sea kings all magically stopping the giant ship noah as there being the ancient weapon again alive in this world. Also the king, the princes and basically all the royal guard and all those by the kings and stuff know as well. Some could let slip sometime and a normal fishman hear and then slowly the rumor starts. BASICALLY, to expect her power to remain secret until said time when Luffy needs it or whatever is super rediculous, and at no way realistic.

So what is shirahoshi going to do? Is her people going to migrate to surface? Is she going with? Is she staying back at fishman island? Is she more free now or now that her secret "may" be out there will she be locked in tower AGAIN by her family for her protection. Will she be out perfecting her skill and talking and what not with sea kings? Will she get a royal guard, can they all be trusted. Look at HOdi, he was a royal guard once. What about Caribou, whats he all know, who is he going to tell, will he come back for her, is he still there, ect.

There is a billion things to wonder about her. SHE IS NO HANCOCK. It isn't as simple as just leave her be at fishman island and all will be as was. Fishman island just had a HUGE EVENT. In hancock's case it was ONLY about her and whether she was found out or not, her island had no part in anything. That is not true in shirahoshi's case. They had a huge event that was not about shirahoshi at all, she only interviened at very end. There is these millions of signatures, the letter, the racism and so much more that to expect this to be like Hancock in any way is just rediculous.

I don't know whats going to happen, but if when the strawhats leave fishman island and nothing changes that is HORRIBLE writing. Fishman Island can not just go back to being exactly how we saw it when we arrived except now no fishman district but instead them now digging ditches. Also was Decken's crew put in prison? I know Decken was, HOdi, and Hodi's officers. But was Decken's? Cause if anyone knows about Shirahoshi's special power, it is them 100%, we know for a fact they know about her ability. They clearly said so when she used it 15 years ago or whenever that was.

All too true which is why quite a number have already speculated that the Reverie where the people of FI plan to make their intent of migration to the surface clear is the next stop for the SH. There are several strong arguments in favour

• the close location of the SH so they won't have to backtrack from the New World to get to Mariejoa,
• the unresolved ending of FI you mentioned,
• the fulfilment of Jimbei's duty to realize Otohime's dream and thus getting rid of the obstacle which prevent him from joining,
• Franky being Tom's disciple as it is quite likely that Tom's family carries the duty of keeping Noah in good repair and Franky would naturally inherit that duty,
• the need for the SH to do something unpreceded on their return to the eyes of the world. Their reunion was a bit underwhelming for the standards Luffy has set,
• oh and Luffy will need a new bounty to reflect his new threat level and Mariejoa would be the perfect stage. He has already invaded all the other strongholds of the WG he won't leave Mariejoa out.

At Mariejoa all those concerns you had could be adressed, besides I feel it's necessary for the Tenryuubito to get some well deserved punishment for their actions. They are an evil which can't be left standing.

[Hinscher]

All too true which is why quite a number have already speculated that the Reverie where the people of FI plan to make their intent of migration to the surface clear is the next stop for the SH. There are several strong arguments in favour

• the close location of the SH so they won't have to backtrack from the New World to get to Mariejoa,
• the unresolved ending of FI you mentioned,
• the fulfilment of Jimbei's duty to realize Otohime's dream and thus getting rid of the obstacle which prevent him from joining,
• Franky being Tom's disciple as it is quite likely that Tom's family carries the duty of keeping Noah in good repair and Franky would naturally inherit that duty,
• the need for the SH to do something unpreceded on their return to the eyes of the world. Their reunion was a bit underwhelming for the standards Luffy has set,
• oh and Luffy will need a new bounty to reflect his new threat level and Mariejoa would be the perfect stage. He has already invaded all the other strongholds of the WG he won't leave Mariejoa out.

At Mariejoa all those concerns you had could be adressed, besides I feel it's necessary for the Tenryuubito to get some well deserved punishment for their actions. They are an evil which can't be left standing.

Personally all those things though just seem to early in the series to address. Almost would feel like the strawhats defeated WG if they do that this early. I don't see them backtracking to Marijoe ever, I see them going to it AFTER they conquer the red line and meet up back with Laboon. Then head to Laboon from teh GRAND Line side and not the New World side. That way they can pick up their allies such as Laboon, Vivi?, Kuja Pirates and who knows who else. But the simplest thing to postpone all of those new issues brought forth in this arc would be to have Shirahoshi join the crew, that way she is protected by Luffy, she can work on her ability, learn more of the world and what her people will be joining, and so much more. I mean she is a princess who was locked in a tower her entire life (how cliche), how can she be expected to lead her people to such a huge event. She knows nothing of the world, or humans. As for her actually joining though, I see that as a big no, due to her size and well power as well. I mean I guess unless at sea her power would be pointless, but then another big problem, what does she do when strawhats are on land adventuring? She is super weak, super big, scaredy cat, crybaby, she brings nothing to the table and would be weird seeing a mermaid on land all the time and a giant to boot.

But right now, it feels like the Shirahoshi situation is like if Hancock was discovered and her island was then put into danger and the strawhats just IGNORED it. Just doesn't feel like them. I have a hard time seeing Luffy who was super protective of Shirahoshi this entire arc just leaving her to defend for herself now, when very high chance even stronger enemies than Hodi would start coming. But then again as I said, I don't see Shirahoshi joining the crew, would be weird having a giant mermaid following all the time and then what when they adventure on land, or when they fight, and so on. Why couldn't she have been a fishwoman, or hell even a normal sized mermaid. Her being a giant just totally makes it all seem "wtf" I mean I could handle her being weak on land, cause well I was fine with Vivi joining the crew and she seemed basically worthless on land compared to the rest of the strawhats.

Maybe this is why Jimbei is not joining now, because he is going to take shirahoshi somewhere and protect her, or bring his old crew here to protect her and so on. Jimbei is someone who is probably strong enough to hold off anyone that would come, especially if they are anywhere in water. Be kind of funny if Oda trolled the "nakama thread" by having Luffy invite Shirahoshi to join and after she accepts Jimbei is like "well the reason I declined was because I was going to do some thing for Shirahoshi, but since she is joining, guess I can no too" YOu know have Jimbei say no and then a couple chapter later he joins.

[Kokolores]

Personally all those things though just seem to early in the series to address. Almost would feel like the strawhats defeated WG if they do that this early. I don't see them backtracking to Marijoe ever, I see them going to it AFTER they conquer the red line and meet up back with Laboon. Then head to Laboon from teh GRAND Line side and not the New World side. That way they can pick up their allies such as Laboon, Vivi?, Kuja Pirates and who knows who else. But the simplest thing to postpone all of those new issues brought forth in this arc would be to have Shirahoshi join the crew, that way she is protected by Luffy, she can work on her ability, learn more of the world and what her people will be joining, and so much more. I mean she is a princess who was locked in a tower her entire life (how cliche), how can she be expected to lead her people to such a huge event. She knows nothing of the world, or humans. As for her actually joining though, I see that as a big no, due to her size and well power as well. I mean I guess unless at sea her power would be pointless, but then another big problem, what does she do when strawhats are on land adventuring? She is super weak, super big, scaredy cat, crybaby, she brings nothing to the table and would be weird seeing a mermaid on land all the time and a giant to boot.

I don't see why you equate the SH showing up at Mariejoa and causing a major disturbance there with the SH defeating the WG. The security at the Reverie will no doubt be tight, but it won't be anywhere near on the same scale as at Marineford in the war against Whitebeard. The WG doesn't expect any special trouble so right now would be the best opportunity for the SH to catch them unawares. Besides I wouldn't expect the SH to fight the entire WG, but just the faction which would oppose the appeal of the Fishmen and Mermen. They have a few allies, namely Vivi and Dalton, to hide them and even among their enemies a few- the "good" marines like Smoker and Kuzan- might be persuaded not to try their hardest to oppose them. Besides they might benefit from some revolutionary assistance.

As for your idea of them heading for Mariejoa after they made it through the New World I don't think it's feasible. The One Piece is the ultimate target if they made another halftour afterwards it just wouldn't be interesting. Besides by then they would be far too powerful to face the world nobles.

But right now, it feels like the Shirahoshi situation is like if Hancock was discovered and her island was then put into danger and the strawhats just IGNORED it. Just doesn't feel like them. I have a hard time seeing Luffy who was super protective of Shirahoshi this entire arc just leaving her to defend for herself now, when very high chance even stronger enemies than Hodi would start coming. But then again as I said, I don't see Shirahoshi joining the crew, would be weird having a giant mermaid following all the time and then what when they adventure on land, or when they fight, and so on. Why couldn't she have been a fishwoman, or hell even a normal sized mermaid. Her being a giant just totally makes it all seem "wtf" I mean I could handle her being weak on land, cause well I was fine with Vivi joining the crew and she seemed basically worthless on land compared to the rest of the strawhats.

I'm of like mind concerning Shirahoshi or rather I'm just as undecided as you are. She will either have to fight, to hide or to run. If she stays on FI she'll have to train to use her ability as a weapon to wipe out any armada the WG will no doubt eventually after her and I don't think she's the type to become a massmurderer like that. If she flees to some remote location and hides there she will be unable to fulfil the prophecy and if she runs away it has to be with the SH and I also don't see her joining for similar reasons.

Maybe this is why Jimbei is not joining now, because he is going to take shirahoshi somewhere and protect her, or bring his old crew here to protect her and so on. Jimbei is someone who is probably strong enough to hold off anyone that would come, especially if they are anywhere in water. Be kind of funny if Oda trolled the "nakama thread" by having Luffy invite Shirahoshi to join and after she accepts Jimbei is like "well the reason I declined was because I was going to do some thing for Shirahoshi, but since she is joining, guess I can no too" YOu know have Jimbei say no and then a couple chapter later he joins.

Like I said I don't think Jimbei's duty is to protect Shirahoshi, but to bring about Otohime's dream. That's what the flashback of Fishertiger's end was about. Before his death Fishertiger embraced Otohime's dream and ever since Jimbei has been faithful to that idea.

[parklane21]

All too true which is why quite a number have already speculated that the Reverie where the people of FI plan to make their intent of migration to the surface clear is the next stop for the SH. There are several strong arguments in favour

• the close location of the SH so they won't have to backtrack from the New World to get to Mariejoa,
• the unresolved ending of FI you mentioned,
• the fulfilment of Jimbei's duty to realize Otohime's dream and thus getting rid of the obstacle which prevent him from joining,
• Franky being Tom's disciple as it is quite likely that Tom's family carries the duty of keeping Noah in good repair and Franky would naturally inherit that duty,
• the need for the SH to do something unpreceded on their return to the eyes of the world. Their reunion was a bit underwhelming for the standards Luffy has set,
• oh and Luffy will need a new bounty to reflect his new threat level and Mariejoa would be the perfect stage. He has already invaded all the other strongholds of the WG he won't leave Mariejoa out.

At Mariejoa all those concerns you had could be adressed, besides I feel it's necessary for the Tenryuubito to get some well deserved punishment for their actions. They are an evil which can't be left standing.

These are some good points! You may also add the fact that there are still a bunch of pre-timeskip places not yet shown in the coverstories.

[Hinscher]

I don't see why you equate the SH showing up at Mariejoa and causing a major disturbance there with the SH defeating the WG. The security at the Reverie will no doubt be tight, but it won't be anywhere near on the same scale as at Marineford in the war against Whitebeard. The WG doesn't expect any special trouble so right now would be the best opportunity for the SH to catch them unawares. Besides I wouldn't expect the SH to fight the entire WG, but just the faction which would oppose the appeal of the Fishmen and Mermen. They have a few allies, namely Vivi and Dalton, to hide them and even among their enemies a few- the "good" marines like Smoker and Kuzan- might be persuaded not to try their hardest to oppose them. Besides they might benefit from some revolutionary assistance.

Look at it this way. They go to Marijoe and obviously there is a big battle cause when do strawhats not cause a huge scene. Now as you said there might not be the 3 admirals there, or even anyone of big stature in the marines there. BUT what would happen. A group of pirate invaded the WG's basically home castle and killed its entire royal family. Tell me how that would far in a say fantasy or midevil story. Imagine if a King had sent out his entire army somewhere, and then a band of rebels snuck past them and attacked the castle and killed the king, queen, princes, princeses, dutches, dukes, ect. What is the army now supposed to do? Who are they fighting for? They have no leaders, no head. They are just an army with no king or queen. We can't have the strawhats go and beat the world nobles and the gouresei and expect the WG to continue running. The marines would then become just like the revolutionary army, they would just be an army. They would not have any governemnt anymore.

As for your idea of them heading for Mariejoa after they made it through the New World I don't think it's feasible. The One Piece is the ultimate target if they made another halftour afterwards it just wouldn't be interesting. Besides by then they would be far too powerful to face the world nobles.

Seems rediculous not to expect them to have some huge even after Raftel, due ot ROBIN. What is at Raftel. The TRUE history. So obviously when they find otu the true history, they will do something. They can't konw the true history until after they reach raftel, and they can't do anything about the true history until after they learn it. Thus obviously something has to happen after raftel. To expect teh series to end after finding one piece on raftel is being blind to the other HUGE story going on in one piece.

Like I said I don't think Jimbei's duty is to protect Shirahoshi, but to bring about Otohime's dream. That's what the flashback of Fishertiger's end was about. Before his death Fishertiger embraced Otohime's dream and ever since Jimbei has been faithful to that idea.

I think Jimbei realizes that its not "HE" who will bring about Otohime's dream, but Shirahoshi. Thus in order to bring about Otohime's dream, he needs to keep Shirahoshi ALIVE.

[Kokolores]

These are some good points! You may also add the fact that there are still a bunch of pre-timeskip places not yet shown in the coverstories.

True, Iceburg as mayor of Water 7 should also be at the Reverie

Look at it this way. They go to Marijoe and obviously there is a big battle cause when do strawhats not cause a huge scene. Now as you said there might not be the 3 admirals there, or even anyone of big stature in the marines there. BUT what would happen. A group of pirate invaded the WG's basically home castle and killed its entire royal family. Tell me how that would far in a say fantasy or midevil story. Imagine if a King had sent out his entire army somewhere, and then a band of rebels snuck past them and attacked the castle and killed the king, queen, princes, princeses, dutches, dukes, ect. What is the army now supposed to do? Who are they fighting for? They have no leaders, no head. They are just an army with no king or queen. We can't have the strawhats go and beat the world nobles and the gouresei and expect the WG to continue running. The marines would then become just like the revolutionary army, they would just be an army. They would not have any governemnt anymore.

Wait what? Who said anything about the SH killing the tenryuubito or defeating the Gorosei? All I think we can reasonably expect is the SH delivering a smackdown to some of the worst and most powerful tenryuubito and their elite guards which no doubt will be kinda like CP9 only more powerful and not under any marine authority and embarassing the WG as a whole by airing their dirty laundry in public and possibly freeing Bonny who I've been long suspecting as a tenryuubito or someone else closely tied to the WG turned pirate.

Seems rediculous not to expect them to have some huge even after Raftel, due ot ROBIN. What is at Raftel. The TRUE history. So obviously when they find otu the true history, they will do something. They can't konw the true history until after they reach raftel, and they can't do anything about the true history until after they learn it. Thus obviously something has to happen after raftel. To expect teh series to end after finding one piece on raftel is being blind to the other HUGE story going on in one piece.

They'll certainly make the true history public and unveil the lies of the WG and with their power and the power of their allies cause lasting change, but I don't think that they have to travel to Mariejoa to do that.

I think Jimbei realizes that its not "HE" who will bring about Otohime's dream, but Shirahoshi. Thus in order to bring about Otohime's dream, he needs to keep Shirahoshi ALIVE.

I didn't mean that he would bring about Otohime's dream by himself but that he saw it as his duty to do everything in his power to help see that dream come true. Sure, protecting Shirahoshi and all of FI is certainly part of it, but his duty is broader than that. If he thought it was his duty to serve as Shirahoshi's protector he would have refused Luffy completely and not said that he'll come once he has finished his duty, because Shirahoshi will need protection for years or until the WG's policies have changed, which won't happen anytime soon unless the Fishmen and the SH attend the Reverie.

[Twitchy]

Jewelry Bonney for Nakama! .... I mean, yes Jimbei has to finish out Otohime and Fisher Tiger's dreams. Can't wait for this week.

[Baou Zakurga]

Noticed mangastram got a new translator,that other guy was just horrible

[Urouge]

It seems you dudes value the WG's information gathering too much, IMO.

Your initial response makes it seem like you're arguing with me, but then the rest of your post seems like you agree with me. I have no idea what's going on.

[SSJLuffy]

I don't feel like reading everybody's posts, but its not like a gigantic fight has to erupt at the Reverie. It could be a small little arc where the SHs show up after a little while in the meeting, say some shit then run away. I'm just giving a suggestion and it might not even happen like that.

Either way, I doubt they're going to the Reverie

[Kokolores]

I don't feel like reading everybody's posts, but its not like a gigantic fight has to erupt at the Reverie. It could be a small little arc where the SHs show up after a little while in the meeting, say some shit then run away. I'm just giving a suggestion and it might not even happen like that.

Either way, I doubt they're going to the Reverie

In 649 chapters have the Strawhats ever done anything on a small scale? I mean really. If they do show up at the reverie the one thing we all know is that they'll completely overdo things.

[HTC]

a seaking can eat an island, do you remember the island eater from little garden?, well the seakings are even bigger than him.

You're right: that totally slipped my mind. One thing though: how do you know these are bigger then that island eater?

I suggest rereading the chapter and noting the Sea Kings' size relative to Fishman Island.

Since Oda is known to have problems with proportional sizes with A VS B, i thought this was one of such occasions.

Your initial response makes it seem like you're arguing with me, but then the rest of your post seems like you agree with me. I have no idea what's going on.

There were too many posts referring this so i just picked one, and it turned out to be one of yours!

[Hinscher]

You're right: that totally slipped my mind. One thing though: how do you know these are bigger then that island eater?

Since Oda is known to have problems with proportional sizes with A VS B, i thought this was one of such occasions.

There were too many posts referring this so i just picked one, heh!

Just look at the Sea Kings holding Noah. LIke 3 of them are roughly the same size as the ship.

Look how hard a time LUffy is having beating up an INANIMATE ship at that size. I mean he is using gatling elephant gun (was it jet?)

Now imagine these creatures who can MOVE and attack back, and god forbid MULTIPLE sea kings, such as Shirahoshi could command. I also wouldn't be surprised if there are bigger ones later in teh series. What are the odds the biggest in the series happen to all have been near Fishman island?

The sea kings that we have seen beaten thus far in the series can hardly be called sea kings compared to some of the other ones we have seen.

You know its like killing a dragon that is only say 50 years old compared to a 1,000 year old dragon. The 1,000 year old dragon will make the 50 year old one look like a baby.

[SSJLuffy]

In 649 chapters have the Strawhats ever done anything on a small scale? I mean really. If they do show up at the reverie the one thing we all know is that they'll completely overdo things.

Haha, your completely correct.

[Czechmate]

Since Oda is known to have problems with proportional sizes with A VS B, i thought this was one of such occasions.

I don't think so; Noah's half the size of Fishman Island and the Sea Kings pull it, so they are really big, and seem to be a lot bigger than normal Sea Kings (like the ones that the Blugoris fought at Impel Down); they're absolutely huge and a pod (?) of them seem to be more than capable of leveling an island Buster Call-style.

[Hinscher]

Just look at whales in relation to Sea Kings.

I mean in real life we have some whales such as Killer Whales and Blue Whales. Both are WHALES, but sizes are drastically different

[HTC]

Just look at the Sea Kings holding Noah. LIke 3 of them are roughly the same size as the ship.

Look how hard a time LUffy is having beating up an INANIMATE ship at that size. I mean he is using gatling elephant gun (was it jet?)

Now imagine these creatures who can MOVE and attack back, and god forbid MULTIPLE sea kings, such as Shirahoshi could command. I also wouldn't be surprised if there are bigger ones later in teh series. What are the odds the biggest in the series happen to all have been near Fishman island?

The sea kings that we have seen beaten thus far in the series can hardly be called sea kings compared to some of the other ones we have seen.

You know its like killing a dragon that is only say 50 years old compared to a 1,000 year old dragon. The 1,000 year old dragon will make the 50 year old one look like a baby.

Like i said, Oda is known to have problems regarding proportion sizes with A VS B.

Look here, then here, then here and finally here (lower left panel). Note that Merry's supposedly half of Thousand Sunny.

Now, you tell me: which of these, when you compare them with the ships next to them, is bigger? To me, it seems last pic is the one that has the biggest but (with Laboon as the 2nd biggest), as you can see from the lower left panel, Noah's bigger then like 5 or 6 of them but it's really all about perspective since, if you compare that panel with the one on the right (same page), then the Sea Kings seem much bigger.

[Theloneookami13]

I think them going to the reverie would make sense, but lets wait and see

[Mark D. Manuel]

does anybody know the meaning of the letters on Gan Fall's shirt?

[CaptainYama]

I think someone may have already posted about this here, but the thing is, when Luffy went to the other WG installations, it was always motivated by some factor out of his own choosing. Like, he had to save someone or something.

Why would the straw hats go to mariejoa now, when they're so eager to finally set out into the new world? They have no reason to go there. There's no obligation, and the WG already knows they're all alive ever since return to shabondy arc when sentoumaru got a good look at luffy.

Also, personally, i'm so tired of the first half of the grand line now. They're finally at the doorstep of the new world, to delay their entrance into new world proper would make me pretty sad.

EDIT: oh shit SSJLuffy already said it. Yeah, i don't see any reason for them to go to reverie. When the Fishmen do end up going to reverie, the author is more than capable of allowing the reader to figure out what went on there by virtue of a news coo or something. I mean, we never actually saw Luffy go back to marineford with the 3D2Y tattoo, it was only referenced as an off-screen event, so why can't the fishmen going to reverie (without the straw hats i mean) be summarized in a similar fashion?