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Thread: Space Jam 2

  1. #81

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Space Jam was great. You can't hate something so....unique.

    I don't want a sequel because it just wouldn't work without MJ, and the potential Quad City DJ remixes would probably be horrid.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbyBevard View Post
    Serious question. I don't mean this sarcastically in any way, You're 20. You grew up even more in the age of internet and cellphones and mtv generally faster paced editing on *everything* than I did and I know there's an actual generational attention span difference as a result. (And my parents before me are even more prone to being able to watch slower films.) How many movies have you seen from before 1975 when Jaws and Star Wars changed the pacing on everything? Are you able to sit through Lawrence of Arabia or Seven Samurai?
    To answer your question, Seven Samurai is probably my favourite movie and the best that I have ever seen, so no, it's not really a pacing issue or that of me not being able to stand something that requires more concentration than the modern MTV era popular media with its thirty second scenes dulls one's senses to.

    Ben-Hur and the 3 hour Gandhi movie are both among movies that I hold in high regard too, and while I haven't personally seen Lawrence of Arabia I think it would probably be up there as well. In general, I vastly prefer something longer and more thoroughly developed to something that just sequences short moments of high intensity together and tries to entertain the audience by keeping them on the edge of their seats at all times.

    It's something that I'm actually very sad that most studios and Hollywood directors don't really do that much anymore, because I seriously find most media entertainment just downright boring these days to the point where I virtually avoid going to the movies or watching new series unless I hear good things about them. I'm a huge snob when it comes to well executed aspects of all media productions. My standards are so high that I simply can't bother with anything that isn't stellar on some level or that doesn't otherwise have a strong personal appeal.

    Calling Citizen Kane the most boring or the most uneventful film in existence is a stupid emotional hyperbole, yeah. It's neither of those things in truth. But that is very much how I felt several years ago when I was watching it out of sheer curiosity and with very high expectations for a movie that was touted as "the undisputed best in history".

    Spoiler:
    And I very much think that what I said about it feeling like nothing but a forced epic depiction of stupid people making stupid decisions that ultimately made Kane a self-absorbed and a bitter man has a lot to do with that reaction. I found it very hard to get into the story at all with how frustrating it was to me. What I saw was not a tragic story of how a great man built great things only to slowly lose them all, but a story of how a poor somewhat stupid man kept making bad choices that ruined everything he had time and time again.

    The betrayal? Caused by Kane's inability to speak with his partner about important things when it was needed. I can't quite remember why, but I think his pride and bad handling of emotions was what made him treat the other guy unfairly in that situation. The love, its end, and the scandal? Marred again by Kane's bad habit of not talking with people. He loved her, she loved him, they could have had each other and lived a happier life if only they had talked about things before it was too late. The political ordeal? Actually interesting for a while, yeah, but ended with a low note again. And the collapse? Caused by Kane's bloated and constantly worsening egotism that he simply couldn't see through anymore because there had never been anyone to talk any sense into him as a result of his earlier errors. The last hour or so was incredibly depressing and boring to watch because it was all just postponing the sad death that was not sad because of how tragic and unfair it was, as the film itself and the hype around it seemed to suggest, but because of how ugly it was in its futility.

    Those kind of stories really, really put me off. It's the Norland thing all over again, or maybe I should say the Norland hype was Citizen Kane all over again. I get so deeply sad and anxious about people's lives or parts of them (relationships, jobs, other big opportunities, etc.) falling apart solely because they do something that is stupid (mostly not communicating with one another) that I'm always overwhelmed with frustration. It makes other possibly fine things that much harder to spot, so even if the movie had stellar acting or something else that makes it really spectacular I probably couldn't point that out.

    And I don't know if this is just my own interpretation, but the whole movie seemed to really bask in the grand tragedy that were the failures of each and every part of Kane's personal life, never acknowledging for a second that what had happened could have been preventable and was so only because people acted like people often do instead of how people maybe could or should. It would have been fine, no, it would have been a masterpiece if it had really portrayed all that transpired in a tragic light, pointing out how the certain reactions of certain characters were the things that made everything happen just in the way that it did and how it is sad that, for example, Kane was unable to fix his relationship before it withered completely. But instead, it seemed to me, it went down the "oh, he was a great man, and we don't know why all the sad things happened to him, but it's truly a tragedy that they did" route, and was awfully pretentious and devoid of all actual substance. It was boring because it was predictable; it was boring because it had no evident deeper moral contemplation.

    Yeah, you're right about the scope of the movie being great. Covering the entire lifespan of a man is a tall order, and it did it pretty well. Although, I must say that I felt like it was awfully sequential as a result and not very fluid, but that's probably just me that it disturbs. Yeah, the acting was very good, I can't and won't take that away from it either. And yeah, the aesthetics were really well used to its benefit too. They really managed to create the mood. But when the mood felt dreary and frustrating, that didn't really matter much.


    That's just my take on Kane, though. I definitely concede that calling it "the most boring movie ever" is BS. But I'd still take Avatar over it any day. :P
    Last edited by Dryish; February 22nd, 2014 at 03:37 PM. Reason: And I've never even seen Space Jam, so why we're discussing this here is beyond me.
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  3. #83
    Discovered Stowaway Light Bro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Thank God!

    Haven't seen the movie since early 2000s (loved it), but NC said it's horrible, so it must have been!

  4. #84

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryish View Post
    stuff
    Fine and well delivered points. No argument from me, I agree with pretty much everything you said, as those are legitimate flaws in the film... aside from the fact I liked the movie and found it compelling, and you didn't.

    I think *some* of the problems you have with it might simply stem from it basically being the first film to do what it did. The flashbacks, even in sequential order, being intercut with a present tense plot hadn't really been done in film before (Or much in books, either)... and there's been some 80 years to build on the storytelling devices Kane pioneered, and have played upon what it did and done better in some ways. (Again, a lot of its place as "greatest movie ever" status, lies in where it historically happened, what it pioneered in film-making, how expertly done the editing was, and how many decades its had to permeate... the exact same film done today would still be considered good, or great even, but wouldn't very quickly go to any "all time best" lists because there's been 80 years of film taking for granted things that it did. )

    Also, it was loosely based on a true story, so some of the awful character flaw things that happened... well... really happened.

    At least a little "Seinfeld isn't funny" going on... but yeah, fair points all around. Thanks for taking the time to explain beyond "Citizen Kane is dull."
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  5. #85

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    The cinematography (and other technical stuff) in the movie was pretty revolutionary at the time as well.

  6. #86
    I like videogames TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    My biggest disappointment with Kane is how it kinda timeskipped his development into a corrupt, heartless individual rather than slowly show his gradual moral decay which I was hoping for. At least that's how I remember it but it has been a while since I last saw it so maybe I'm remembering wrong though I do distinctly remember that disappointment.

    The movie did have the best room destroying scene I've seen next to Vampire's Kiss.
    Last edited by TLC; February 22nd, 2014 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Never expected those two movies to be mentioned together did you? hurr hurr hurr

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Yeah this is definitely a case of Seinfeld Isn't Funny.
    Though I prefer something like King of Comedy or Taxi Driver over CK regardless.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbyBevard View Post
    At least a little "Seinfeld isn't funny" going on... but yeah, fair points all around. Thanks for taking the time to explain beyond "Citizen Kane is dull."
    Yeah, no problem, I honestly hate it when people do the 'blargh worst thing ever because I felt like it' thing without even trying to explore why it is that they felt that way.

    It's why you sometimes get an endless stream of rant-like posts on stuff like OP chapters from me -- I don't want to be that guy who just walks in and say something is bad and everyone who enjoys it should feel bad. And hey, if you can see something from a different perspective as a result of maybe making a fool of yourself, I'm all for it. At least I'll learn something.

    And yup, I think you're definitely right in that Kane being the first movie to ever really attempt that form of storytelling in movie form does affect it a lot. It's one of its charms in the same way as people fall in love with older music or older cars, and for those who can appreciate the film in the historical context it's probably very incredible. That's just the biggest way that my relatively young age and limited experience tends to enter the picture: I don't usually place that much value on how well executed something was at the time when it was made unless it was something completely revolutionary (and in Kane's case I simply don't know enough about the history of movies as a medium to have that reaction). I'm much more of a presentation and meaning oriented person in that I place more weight on what actually happens in a story and what kind of a message it is sending through which kinds of ways, and if that's lacking or unpolished, as it slightly was with Citizen Kane, I'm easily much more critical towards a work.

    But I don't want to say it like all other opinions are wrong or something as conceited as that, because that's not true. I full and well appreciate your view of it, my focus is just different from yours. I think I could use a rewatch, though. Might get a bit more out of it now.
    Last edited by Dryish; February 22nd, 2014 at 05:32 PM. Reason: And, yeah, I know it's based on real events... But that doesn't make it any, uh, more palatable from a moral standpoint
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  9. #89

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryish View Post
    I don't want to be that guy who just walks in and say something is bad and everyone who enjoys it should feel bad. And hey, if you can see something from a different perspective as a result of maybe making a fool of yourself, I'm all for it. At least I'll learn something.
    I don't mind people that do this unless they are all like "I don't understand how anyone would like this" proceeded by a long tangent on why it should not be praised or hyped by anyone. It comes across as really intrusive, and it pisses me off even more when these same people act like victims for having a differing opinion. By yeah. Short and cute version:


  10. #90

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    I love that there's an in depth Citizen Kane discussion going on in the Space Jam 2 thread.

    We should debate like, a whole bunch of classics. In this thread. Just cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thousand Lion-chan View Post
    My biggest disappointment with Kane is how it kinda timeskipped his development into a corrupt, heartless individual rather than slowly show his gradual moral decay which I was hoping for. At least that's how I remember it but it has been a while since I last saw it so maybe I'm remembering wrong though I do distinctly remember that disappointment.
    Nope, that's a problem I have with it too. The film probably should have had another 10 or 20 minute sequence. No idea what that could possibly entail or how it would actually add to the narrative in any significant way... but yes, it skips a very, VERY large chunk of the man's life and it feels like that's missing.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Space Jam 2 and Classic Movie Analysis Thread

  12. #92

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Space Jam 2 and other Classic Movie Analysis Thread
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    If we are speaking classic movies, I admit that I could not for my life sit through Seven Samurai. Sadly I can't give a long reason why aside from the fact it put me to sleep and the screenplay reminded me of old western/cowboy films. Then agian, this was me seeing it four years ago. Not saying it's a bad movie tho.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbyBevard View Post
    Space Jam 2 and other Classic Movie Analysis Thread
    Make it so, number one.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Hermit View Post
    Make it so, number one.
    I probably will eventually... but its more fun to just see the "Space Jam 2" thread wrack up multiple pages.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Oh man, if we go into Seven Samurai, I could praise it so much.

    But yeah, it's pacing is definitely very slow, so if you get bored easily it's not a big surprise you won't be able to sit through it very well. The thing with it is just that it's completely intentional and is used as a device of slowly building up the tension in order to intensify it, as opposed to creating it which is the approach that more modern movies of the same style would probably do.

    The entire premise itself creates the tension, so you're aware of it the entire time, and the rest of the movie is just basically about making the tension feel stronger and stronger with each passing second until the series of final confrontations. The comparison with old Westerns is pretty accurate, I'd say, because stuff like Rio Bravo did exactly just that, only not with such great detail and realism.

    I don't know how much of the important stuff that makes it easier to sit through the standard cut version gets rid off, though. I know there are two versions of the film: the original cut that is closer to three and half hours long and that is said to be surprisingly easier to watch because it flows better, and the standard cut that is much shorter and that doesn't have all the build-up in it that makes it so intense. I've only seen the longer version myself, so I can't tell.
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  17. #97

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    We need a poll asking what's better between Space Jam and Citizen Kane.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    We need a poll asking what's better between Space Jam and Citizen Kane.
    We have to keep it relevant to the original intent of this thread, yo.

    So the question is. Space Jam 2 or Citizen Kane?

  19. #99

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    What if Rosebud was actually a basketball instead?
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  20. #100

    Default Re: Space Jam 2

    Yeah, seven Samurai was very much like a western. Why it translated SO easily to The Magnificent Seven. A lot of samurai films and westerns share same concepts of loners wandering from town to town in an untamed frontier changing into the modern world, and duels of honor. Mostly its changing swords with guns and a lot of the basics are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    We need a poll asking what's better between Space Jam and Citizen Kane.
    In this forum I think Space Jam would win handily.
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