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Thread: Random News Article Discussion II

  1. #13261

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I assume you mean the minority of Bernie fans who didn't​ vote for Hillary.
    Shut up.
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  2. #13262

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    The odds were in Hillary's favor. Even if he imagined a strong possibility of her losing, he certainly also saw a good chance for a win to. He was a republican in need to be in denial in how unlikely for Trump to use back at the convention and even after the election Trump himself was surprise from his victory. So except if some crazy level of bitterness cloud Bernie's judgment there is no way he believed Hillary was doomed.

    I do believe the pointing fingers is lasting a long time but let's not rewrite everything that happened as some set in stone moment every enlightened people saw coming..
    The odds definitely should have been in her favor, but her campaign made many strange and ill-advised mistakes.

    Given what we know about Russia's involvement in the election and how much Putin hated Hillary, I kind of wonder if they had a hand in that.

  3. #13263
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    The odds definitely should have been in her favor, but her campaign made many strange and ill-advised mistakes.

    Given what we know about Russia's involvement in the election and how much Putin hated Hillary, I kind of wonder if they had a hand in that.
    I'm not discussing why she lost but that there is no way Bernie would believe that she was doomed during the election period. No one did. Even the guy that won was surprise.

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  4. #13264
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.

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  5. #13265

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    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I'm not discussing why she lost but that there is no way Bernie would believe that she was doomed during the election period. No one did. Even the guy that won was surprise.
    Plenty of people did, actually. A competent but widely disliked candidate (who most people settled for, rather than enthusiastically endorsed) went up against a lying, cynical, widely hated populist in a not-based-on-the-actual-number-of-votes popularity contest. The Republican base, despite being smaller, shows up to the polls with shocking regularity. The Democrats (who were less than enthusiastic about their candidate) often have serious problems getting people to vote.

    Trump's campaign was very publicly clueless throughout the entire campaign, so it doesn't surprise me that they didn't see a likely victory coming (or know how to take advantage of it).

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    His force of random people running for every possible office is allegedly going to be significant in the midterm elections, but that remains to be seen.

    Other than that... yeah, Bernie Bros are mostly brought up as "those guys who lost the election for us."

  6. #13266

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I assume you mean the minority of Bernie fans who didn't​ vote for Hillary.
    Even a substantial portion of the Bernie voters who voted for Hillary cheerfully carried water for the Republicans by constantly repeating Republican propaganda about her.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    A competent but widely disliked candidate (who most people settled for, rather than enthusiastically endorsed) went up against a lying, cynical, widely hated populist in a not-based-on-the-actual-number-of-votes popularity contest. The Republican base, despite being smaller, shows up to the polls with shocking regularity. The Democrats (who were less than enthusiastic about their candidate)
    Case in point; it's complete bullshit that the majority of Democrats "settled" for a candidate who actually won the primary by an overwhelming margin and who was actually quite popular within the actual Party itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    Bernie's track record for endorsing and supporting other candidates (even candidates who themselves endorsed and supported Bernie) is actually terrible; it's far smaller than people realize and most of th people and ballot initiatives that he supported actually lost.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  7. #13267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Case in point; it's complete bullshit that the majority of Democrats "settled" for a candidate who actually won the primary by an overwhelming margin and who was actually quite popular within the actual Party itself.
    Every single Hillary supporter I've ever spoken to has at some point waxed poetic about Biden. They didn't get him, so they settled.

  8. #13268

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Every single Hillary supporter I've ever spoken to has at some point waxed poetic about Biden. They didn't get him, so they settled.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  9. #13269

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Personally I think that a lot of Bernie's ideas, such as those about single-payer and free- or reduced-tuition public university, are at least part of an effective future message for the Democratic Party even if he isn't necessarily one himself. On the other hand, Sanders' (and especially many of his supporters') general attitudes (resistance to compromise, fighting with people on your side) being adopted by the Democrats would be absolutely terrible for the party. And don't say that Bernie would have won - the election would have been like McGovern all over again.

    That said, figuring out a way to get that sizable chunk of people who just stayed home excited enough to vote in elections is super important, and for some areas it might involve tweaking messaging to appeal to working-class Americans (which can and does include POC too!!!) with low-skill jobs. And it certainly shouldn't involve people going and implying "yeah, you DESERVE to die from lack of health insurance because of your uninformed political opinion" like I've seen too many people do.

  10. #13270

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    Irony being most of them are democrats (allegedly)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  11. #13271
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Plenty of people did, actually. A competent but widely disliked candidate (who most people settled for, rather than enthusiastically endorsed) went up against a lying, cynical, widely hated populist in a not-based-on-the-actual-number-of-votes popularity contest. The Republican base, despite being smaller, shows up to the polls with shocking regularity. The Democrats (who were less than enthusiastic about their candidate) often have serious problems getting people to vote.
    And again we are talking about the elections period just after Hillary became the official candidate of the party. He could consider Trump as a potential winner but there is no indication that he somehow believed the election were a foregone conclusion. Therefore he did not think that she was doomed to lose. He could have thought about the possibility but in no way was he certain.

    I don't blame him for Hillary losing (America decided for Trump) neither do I think he owned her his endorsement but giving him some great foresight on the crazy amount of star that had to allign for the current president to be elect is simply wrong. A toss-up? Possibly. Maybe a hard battle but no Bernie reason were not the impossibility of avoiding Trump.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    I'm not sure why any of them would be relevant except maybe democrats planning on how to catch them for legislative(so get a couple seats from republicans). but after the Election season is done there is the season of finger pointing it seems.

    I think the fingers are not a good idea and counterproductive but I also don't think it's a reason to change the story to avoid the fingers.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  12. #13272

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    "I knew that Occidental medicine was going to fail, that is why I stopped using the meds and went to pray and eat purified rock salt. I died anyways"
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  13. #13273

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Truth View Post
    That said, figuring out a way to get that sizable chunk of people who just stayed home excited enough to vote in elections is super important, and for some areas it might involve tweaking messaging to appeal to working-class Americans (which can and does include POC too!!!) with low-skill jobs. And it certainly shouldn't involve people going and implying "yeah, you DESERVE to die from lack of health insurance because of your uninformed political opinion" like I've seen too many people do.
    This is a fair point and is one of the reasons that I really appreciate the discussion that Obama had with Chicago area students yesterday. We definitely need to work to inspire young people to take a bigger part in our democratic process.
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  14. #13274
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II


    By fire be purged

  15. #13275

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    He's been campaigning for an anti-choice candidate, while calling the very liberal Jon Ossof not a real progressive.

  16. #13276

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    And again we are talking about the elections period just after Hillary became the official candidate of the party. He could consider Trump as a potential winner but there is no indication that he somehow believed the election were a foregone conclusion. Therefore he did not think that she was doomed to lose. He could have thought about the possibility but in no way was he certain.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Bernie knew Hillary was almost certainly doomed to lose. :/
    For the record, I used the qualifier "almost" to indicate that he wasn't psychic. It's possible that he didn't see the writing on the wall, but I think it far more likely that he saw Trump's track record of screwing up at literally every possible opportunity and hoped that would sink him. The fact that Trump's constant memeworthy fuckups didn't sink him is a testament to just how blindly loyal Republican voters are in this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I don't blame him for Hillary losing (America decided for Trump) neither do I think he owned her his endorsement but giving him some great foresight on the crazy amount of star that had to allign for the current president to be elect is simply wrong. A toss-up? Possibly. Maybe a hard battle but no Bernie reason were not the impossibility of avoiding Trump.
    I don't think it required a great amount of foresight, but a lot of people failed to see the forest through the trees. I called it in Feb, but allowed myself to doubt my instincts based on the overwhelming amount of negative press Trump got.

  17. #13277

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Classic RoboBlue.
    When I do what I do... often times, I'm doin' what I think I'm doin'~

  18. #13278

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Been wanting to take part in this discussion for a long time, so here I go.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Bernie knew Hillary was almost certainly doomed to lose. :/
    I love Bernie too but what? That's total bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    As much as some people might like to believe, Bernie is not some left wing prophet or messiah. Sure, the guy had some good talking points to run on, but his reluctance to support Hillary definitely played a big role in the misinformation and discrediting of the American democratic system campaign that was aimed at bringing Trump into power.

    Bernie was part of the problem, and if you're too afraid of marring his image to admit that, then you're part of the problem, too..
    I still believe Bernie actually helped Hillary's chances more than he harmed them. Hillary was simply a very unappealing candidate, especially for millenials. Bernie got a large number of them and older disgruntled voters interested and invested in politics again. A number of them may have talked a big game about #bernieorbust but most of them eventually went for Hillary anyway, people who might've not voted otherwise. And the other Bernie fans who didn't vote for her (who I greatly disagree with by the way)? I seriously doubt they'd have voted for Hillary anyway. What's more, he ended up campaigning for her and against Trump very enthusiastically. I definitely think he got more people to vote for her than the opposite.
    And I think his criticism of her was definitely legitimate, not misinofrmation.

    As for his late endorsement, I'd have done it as soon as the odds of winning were gone but I'm fine with him waiting and pressuring her into adopting a more progressive platform. He got her to adopt raising the minimum wage which is very important and as a bonus surely made her more appealing to voters.

    You guys blame Bernie bros and racists for the victory of Trump but I blame the incompetent and out of touch Hillary campaign for it just as much. She had no charisma, no appearance of integrity and no real message except for "i'm a woman" (granted, it would be really cool to have a female president but it's just a cool bonus), just empty platitudes. To an electorate desperate for change she said America is already great. Just like her platform, that implies no change. On top of not campaigning in some states it caused 9% of Obama voters to go to Trump which I don't doubt is way more significant than any damage Bernie did.
    She had to have been vetted by the DNC which would show what a weak candidate she was, and she still ran despite the risk? For what, just wanting to be president, not any greater good?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    Took them an hour to do something that Bernie wasted 3 months on.
    Macron is an actual moderate, Hillary really is a neoliberal corporatist despite being considered a centrist by American standards. That's how far the overton window is shifted to the right in America. She really was republican-light with more social progressivism thrown in. I totally understand Bernie wanting to make her adopt a more progressive platform by withholding his endorsement (but again, wouldn't have done it in his shoes).
    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    I've seen him plenty since the election, but then I'm a fan of his. I don't know how influential he still is, but he's still working his ancient ass off fighting for progressivism.
    Last edited by DoctorPhil; April 25th, 2017 at 07:31 AM.

  19. #13279

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPhil View Post
    I love Bernie too but what? That's total bullshit.
    Alright, I'll concede that I have no way of knowing that, and the statement was based more on my own predictions than anything Bernie said.

  20. #13280
    The Nice Guy Outerspec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Bernie's track record for endorsing and supporting other candidates (even candidates who themselves endorsed and supported Bernie) is actually terrible; it's far smaller than people realize and most of th people and ballot initiatives that he supported actually lost.
    I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. The group he started "Our Revolution" is a direct extension of his campaign and there's a list of endorsed candidates and initiatives you can look at. By the numbers they have a majority of wins, not losses.

    https://pplswar.wordpress.com/2016/1...016-victories/

    Even his personal endorsements I believe turned out more wins than losses in the end, but I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgamer82 View Post
    Frankly, I don't see why Sanders is still a big deal. How much has he actually done since election. Nowadays, it seems the Bernie Bros are more relevant than Bernie himself.
    Because he's the most popular politician in America. And I don't mean just "popular" by being well known. I'm talking about positively popular, like people actually like him. I know that article is a couple months old though but what held true then still holds true today. So with him being so well liked and well known now, where he focuses his attention makes a big deal and brings attention.

    Which is why you might be hearing so much about him supporting or not supporting certain Democratic candidates.
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