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Thread: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

  1. #2001
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Roronoa Zacho View Post
    Thanks, man. Until Luffy covered Sonia's back, the Boa Sisters have been pretty villainous. They even would have smashed the statutes of Margaret and co if Luffy wouldn't have used his CoC (unintentional). I remember one line well (Luffy to Hancock):"You disgust me!" Oda showed us that no matter how pretty you are, if you act like a d*ck, you ARE a d*ck in Luffy's eyes.

    What Oda didn't Show us is Luffy's reaction to Katakuri's d*ck-move. Maybe Luffy was busy figuring out how to beat that guy.

    Trying to speak Katakuri free from any guilt: Katakuri also completely lost it during this Moment. He went from the most badass, super-cool Yonkou-commander to a Buggy-esque behavior ("who has a big red round nose!?").

    But I'm not really seeing Luffy covering Katakuri's mouth like he covered Sonia's back just to save Kata's "Reputation". Nevertheless, Luffy could pull it off, because his Actions (rarely) seem pretty odd. At least covering Sonia's back did back then.

    It's a real Pity, that Zoro isn't fighting Katakuri. He tends to almost make friends with his defeated enemies. Except for Aum (or Ohm), the Guy with the dial sword.

    I'd say the ones unredeemable in this arc are Perospero, Katakuri and maybe the likes of Mon't dor and Smoothie. The Kids concerned about BM's yonkou-pride, which is at stake right now. But those are ironically quite the same, who should be happy, that Sanji stopped BM's tantrum. Otherwise she would destroy all of Tottoland.

    I really wonder if the clash with BM gets delayed until Elbaf or things resolve themselves within Tottoland.

    The important part is that she stated an *intention* to smash the statues.

    Would she really have done that?

    A few posts ago I talked about the importance of intentions.

    They can easily be erased, shaded over, or explained.

    Katakuri's instance was pure action and is therefore slightly more tricky to deal with. The easiest would to next see them bandaged up by Katakuri but even so, dark Oda, dark. (That is, if he will end up friendly to the strawhats)

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    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    Greg,how seriously do you take the comment of Oda about Akainu being so strong that he could easily conclude the story/found One Piece in a year if he was to be the protagonist? Since it put his power level completely on a different scale to the rest.....
    I don't think it's something that could be interpreted any other way.

    If *any* antagonist with influence, ambition and motivation had the physical prowess and facilities to do so, sure, it's totally possible... and uninteresting.

    Hell, I could tell you how he could potentially end OP in a single chapter while still delivering on the promise of the title. It's not an interesting ending though.

  2. #2002
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    The important part is that she stated an *intention* to smash the statues.

    Would she really have done that?

    A few posts ago I talked about the importance of intentions.

    They can easily be erased, shaded over, or explained.

    Katakuri's instance was pure action and is therefore slightly more tricky to deal with. The easiest would to next see them bandaged up by Katakuri but even so, dark Oda, dark. (That is, if he will end up friendly to the strawhats)

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    I don't think it's something that could be interpreted any other way.

    If *any* antagonist with influence, ambition and motivation had the physical prowess and facilities to do so, sure, it's totally possible... and uninteresting.

    Hell, I could tell you how he could potentially end OP in a single chapter while still delivering on the promise of the title. It's not an interesting ending though.
    I'm interested in this, unless it's giving away something gthat we'd all much rather not know.

  3. #2003

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Would she really have done that?
    However, while it wasn't fully executed, it definitely was more than just mere intention. It was a partial execution which got stopped solely by an outside force. Looked for me that she actually started the downwards movements in order to smash her.

    The main difference between her and Kata is that a strong enough outside force interferred.
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  4. #2004
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTEMlS View Post
    However, while it wasn't fully executed, it definitely was more than just mere intention. It was a partial execution which got stopped solely by an outside force. Looked for me that she actually started the downwards movements in order to smash her.

    The main difference between her and Kata is that a strong enough outside force interferred.
    Nah mate.

    As long as its *intention* we never know how it might have gone.

    She could have changed them back just before they were smashed, etc.

    My point is, because those intentions were never fully carried out, we'll never know how it might have carried through *and* emotions that might have mistakenly lead characters to those conclusions can, in hindsight, inform characters performing potentially villainous actions of the error of what they were doing.

    This is precisely why I've been so trusting of Mom and her family turning into (sooner or later) non-threatening characters. They talk the talk but rarely do they walk the walk. Even when they do, it can usually be explained.

    But not in this case.

    I'm not sure if I'm not properly putting my thoughts down but as an author, making a character sympathetic is much more difficult to do *once violent actions have been carried out to fruition* rather than simply threatened.

    If Katakuri *knew* those patisseries were ultra tough I get that but there's no suggestion of that and Oda is always very careful to include that kind of info.

    Again, nowhere am I saying Katakuri cannot be sympathetic. If you go back to my first post on the matter I'm just saying, it's much more difficult for Oda to portray him that way now.

  5. #2005

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Maybe Katakuro used COO to avoid their vital organs, and had the intention of having Pudding alter their memories later. But that will suggest Pudding actually knowing about his secret.

  6. #2006
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    There are any number of explanations along that line Oda could use.

    Either way you slice it though, damn. He just stabbed the f*** outta fodder NPCs for a very poor reason.

    Also....

    It's pretty funny that for over a year I was arguing vehemently that Mom and her family's actions could be rationalized but the one time I'm suggesting a member did something that can't easily be taken back, there are a lot of arguments against it.

    Not complaining just a funny juxtaposition to find myself in.

  7. #2007

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Most importantly IMO if oda really wanted katakuri seen as a villain I think he would have brought attention to it by luffy, a more definite facial reaction or even (the honestly it's a been awhile) "those men were your crewmates, I hate people like you the most" shonen MC speeches

    Im thinking the point of the scene might have been to so heavily contrast with his previous behavior so we could see the change and notice his behavior was off. Then that behavior continues of him being so upset he cant focus and luffy hits him hard a few times. It was supposed to seem out of nowhere because his calm and collectedness was off, without the chefs that'd be harder to show
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  8. #2008
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    That's precisely the point LJSR.

    It's essential to Luffy recognizing Katakuri's 'weakness' due to his temperament change.

    But despite his change, it was still a terrible thing to do. Do we agree?

    Now that Katakuri has some down time I do wonder if we'll see him tend to them but whew! Whatta dark turn there!

  9. #2009

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I think that scene could be easily explained if Oda really wants to end up having the BMP as "not bad people". Katakuri attacked the pâtissères out of despair, because in that moment all he could think about was not letting the truth about him leak out. It would be a different thing if he attacked them because he got mad and was just lashing his frustration on his underlings.

    Oda could put that on "sheer despair" and actually use it to make Katakuri more relatable if he regrets it later. Actually, we could find out he tended to their wounds after Luffy left Mirro-world and in the end this scene would make him look more sympathetic than otherwise.


    Either way, this is a weird arc for Luffy and the SH when it comes to their behavior as protagonists.
    Spoiler:
    They were ok with plotting BM's assassination in front of her family and using her only good memory of the past to make sure she would be killed as she was heartbroken. Luffy tried again and again to make sure it would work. That including Luffy "good allies" (in opposition to the "bad allies", the Firetank Pirates), the Sun Pirates, tying up Pekoms - Luffy's friend in the BMP - to make sure he wouldn't warn his "mama" she was going to be murdered. Plus, the SH didn't even gave a second thought about the whole family and thousands of civilians dying when the chateau fell, all we got was Bege celebrating the turn of events.

    All of that just to say that Oda is depicting the SH more as "the good pirates" instead of just "good people" in this arc, so if he ever wants to make Luffy ignore the bad deeds of his allies, this seem to be the perfect time.
    If Oda thinks the reader is going to accept Luffy allying with Bege after he actively tried to murder Pekoms twice (and we did accept that without much problem and even bought the notion of Bege being a caring father and husband after that), Katakuri's attack shouldn't carry much weigh.
    Last edited by .access timeco.; November 14th, 2017 at 04:09 PM.
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  10. #2010
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Oda could put that on "sheer despair" and actually use it to make Katakuri more relatable if he regrets it later. Actually, we could find out he tended to their wounds after Luffy left Mirro-world and in the end this scene would make him look more sympathetic than otherwise.
    Yup, I suggested these in an earlier post.

  11. #2011
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    There are any number of explanations along that line Oda could use.

    Either way you slice it though, damn. He just stabbed the f*** outta fodder NPCs for a very poor reason.

    Also....

    It's pretty funny that for over a year I was arguing vehemently that Mom and her family's actions could be rationalized but the one time I'm suggesting a member did something that can't easily be taken back, there are a lot of arguments against it.

    Not complaining just a funny juxtaposition to find myself in.
    In the case of Kata I agree that Oda would do such a gruesome scene if not to make Kata an actual threat. But I could see it as a way to signify how he deserves to be defeat by Luffy. I don't think the scene has to turn Kata into someone with an awful relationship with the strawhats at the end but I also don't see Oda doing such scene without Kata receiving payback for such actions so it could simply be to justify his future beating.

    As far as gruesome that turned cool I think we had Hachi and Ryuuma who has a real dick to Brook and his afro and presented as his tormenter in the past(he even broke his skull I think). By the end of the arc the incident could be water under the bridge or with some minor actions from Kata proving he care. I don't see them tending their wounds but maybe sharing his sweets or inviting them to his house or another llittle thing indicating the dynamic have changed.

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  12. #2012
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    As far as gruesome that turned cool I think we had Hachi and Ryuuma who has a real dick to Brook and his afro and presented as his tormenter in the past
    Those two were particularly easy to explain away.

    Hachi is a bit slow and was preeeetty easy to control/be influenced.

    As for Ryuuma, the shadow controlling him completely eliminates any reason for doubt there.

    Look, folks, the purpose of the scene was to serve as a major hint to his change in temperament.

    I'm not saying he shouldn't have done it.

    Not saying it was a poor choice.

    Not saying I don't like it.

    I'm saying it's a very cruel action by the character, one of the first from the family outside clear antagonists like Pudding, one that is not easily explained away and makes it difficult for the crew/reader to rationalize his actions.

    Not impossible.

    Can we please move on to a different topic? There's really nobody suggesting anything new *or* that technically doesn't gel with what I've suggested. It feels like we're retreading ground when I'm either saying the same thing every post or stating that I said the same thing earlier.

  13. #2013
    Live Fast Grow Fat Roronoa Zacho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    It's pretty hard to say wether or not BM and her family end up being good or non-threatening.
    She took away 50 yrs from Pedro (and "passively" made him rip out his own eye).
    Then she has this collecting Thing going on (ok, this fact saved Brook's boney ass though). And while Jinbe burnt the book with Luffy and Nami in it, there are still pleeenty of books in that library. If Mon't dor eats the cake as well and faints, you can cross this Point out, I guess.

    Oh, and speaking of Jinbe:
    Jinbe left BM and joins Luffy. A guy who brought BM a poneglyph as a gift.

    Luckily the way HOW the tamatebako went off, FI should be save from BM.

    Then she has this wheel (which wasn't shown "playing" yet). Is it just Darts or roulette? My best guess it is those 2 combined. One spins the wheel and then he has to throw a dart (or sth else) at this Spinning wheel. The area hit by then makes the Penalty.

    On the other side, there is Pekoms, who is sometimes more on BM's side and sometimes more on Zou's side.
    And we can thank Tamago, that all the Tarte-Ships and the flag ship are at sea now.

    I wonder if one cake can make up for that. Right now, I assume Sanji's whipped cream will make BM faint and I hope Pudding is gonna Change some of BM's memories.
    If BM turns neutral in the end I also cannot imagine how Oda will solve the mystery around Lola, Loki and Chiffon, unless Pudding just screwed with Lola's memories.
    Last edited by Roronoa Zacho; November 15th, 2017 at 07:13 AM.
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  14. #2014
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Neither the Shichibukai nor the Marines were presented as universally filled with evil figures, we had more of a balance in both groups of (anti)-herous and evildoers. And with the Yonko, we of course have Shanks. But we also have Blackbeard and Kaido, who are definitely set up as great villains. I would find it rather interesting if the whole situation with Big Mom would end up less threatening than it seems (compare it with Hancock's characterization without the "Falling-in-love"-thing). I think the author has a pretty rewarding opportunity there.

  15. #2015

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    I'm saying it's a very cruel action by the character, one of the first from the family outside clear antagonists like Pudding, one that is not easily explained away and makes it difficult for the crew/reader to rationalize his actions.
    So, along with the examples of Zacho, it means that Pudding has lost that attribute of antagonist, right?
    She was pure evil, Oda put the tsundere status at the degree of bipolar personality, thus giving her a credit of being half good, only because one of her personalities is helping Sanji.
    Explaining the true change of Oda to allow reasoning in Big Mom's eating disorder now, to truly become her an antagonist through and through.

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  16. #2016
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    So, along with the examples of Zacho, it means that Pudding has lost that attribute of antagonist, right?
    Nope!
    I wrote an entire article about how she's still not a good person and needs to atone for what she's done/pay for her crimes. She's gotta work to get rid of that villain status.

    Just because she's going loopy over Sanji and is helping save her family doesn't account for all she's done.

    And while Jinbe burnt the book with Luffy and Nami in it, there are still pleeenty of books in that library.
    Oooh! This is pretty interesting. SO check this out! The prison and library are two completely separate locations.

    The library is located high up on WCC while the prison is below. It was just a coincidence that two book locations were shown at once in that chapter.

  17. #2017

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Nope!
    I wrote an entire article about how she's still not a good person and needs to atone for what she's done/pay for her crimes. She's gotta work to get rid of that villain status.

    Just because she's going loopy over Sanji and is helping save her family doesn't account for all she's done.
    I understand your point, but... there's one thing that will happen to Pudding, if she starts the way of atonement, and it would be very cliché. I'm going to the position of self-sacrifice against the very Big Mom for sake of Sanji, just as we know that in OP no antagonist really dies, she will fulfill her life thanks to that, and it will be very probable for her to awaken her third eye.

    I really wouldn't want that, i just hope that Oda pulls a Hancock for Pudding, he can perfectly state that only for 'feeling love' is redeemable, and it would fit that sentence of 'Year of Sanji' to finally join the group of woman waiting for him, after his adventure (MAYBE) like Usopp and Luffy.

    Now, i'd truly see your antagonist punishment to come at Judge, that man to me is really the worst human being there. Still, i think it won't happen because he's now outclassed by Mom, but it would be nice to see more divine retribution.

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  18. #2018
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'antagonist punishment'.

    Every villain will be punished, just in different ways (some physical, some emotional and some material) that involves the breaking of their spirit and acceptance of defeat.

    I don't think Pudding will be 'punished' any more than any other villain. There simply needs to be an explanation for why her past actions can be forgiven.

  19. #2019

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Watching those videos is bad for your brain. Would not suggest it.

    Not to mention their illegality.

    You'll get more out of a paragraph from Count Mario than from 30 mins of a YouTuber.

    So, I didn't say I believe the theory (which I originally proposed a decade ago) but rather i said it depends whether or not they came from the moon or not.

    Like most developments in the series, unless I feel strongly about a theory, I try to stay open to pretty much anything.


    I believe the moon link is a strong one. But I'm not putting my foot down like I did with Sanji cake, the Mink/Wano connection, or Wano being Momotarou.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    Kano?
    It's totally China. Has that not been recognized by the English community? No question whatsoever. The 'flower' kanji used is a 花 (ka) but 華 (ka) also means 'flower' but also means 'Chinese'.
    so your not a fan of youtuber theories?

    im not either but I did like that one that Joy boy did.


    Btw with Reverie coming after this WCI arc, do you believe that Luffy will be in it or that Reverie will be a small arc(and the first not counting the first) without Luffy in it?

    if its the latter its gon be interesting to witness a Politically focused arc without Luffy, its gon prolly feel like those post Marinford chapters where we were showed what was going on with everyone else and no showing off luffy. But this time its gon focus on one location.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by The Humanoid Typhoon View Post
    I really really really want the cake to get destroyed and Sanji to cake it again with battle against Oven but with the current'sarc standards looks unrealistic. Otherwise it would be they standard one piece way things are going
    I remember reading one person's post that its likely that oven is there to mess up the food and everything planned causing Sanji and the chefs to make everything over again but instead of a whole cake just a slice.(But that slice is so good it knocks BM off her feet)

    what do you mean by "Standard one piece way things are going" ?
    Last edited by Nupas2312; November 17th, 2017 at 03:12 PM.

  20. #2020

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Greg, I mentioned this briefly during your stream so now I'll go into more detail about Dragon Dragon Fruit: Model- Yamata no Orochi theory. I think there's enough evidence to suggest that Kaido might have this variation of the Dragon Dragon fruit.

    - The symbol behind the skull of the Animal Kingdom Pirates' jolly roger looks similar to the kanji "八" eight.
    - We know Kaido has been captured eighteen times.
    - We know that he's been defeated seven times (being defeated on Wano would be the eighth time).
    - In the legend, Orochi became drunk after drinking eight cups of sake. We see Kaido in a drunken stupor from drinking sake. There's even a kind of liquor named Kaido.

    You mentioned that "orochi" translates into "serpent", but serpents and dragons are arguably interchangeable and most dragon myths are based on the likeness of reptiles/serpents. All the artwork of Yamata no Orochi also looks a lot like the Shenlong wavy dragon a lot of people expect Kaido to look like.

    But then I recalled your statements about the creatures that Oda considers the coolest, a dragon and a lion. The solution to this that came to my mind was that each of Kaido's heads would take the form of a really strong animal.
    This would be a way for Oda to have his cake and eat it too.
    Each head would take the form of the strongest creatures in history, even fitting the theme of the Color Walks. A lion, an eagle, a shark....okay maybe not a shark, but you get the idea.
    On top of the Oni resemblance, it seems like Kaido could be an amalgamation of the coolest mythological icons from Japanese mythos.


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