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Thread: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

  1. #2441

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by No swords style best style View Post
    One thing I would like to say about how events are portrayed positively/negatively is that all the gold the SHs "stole" from Skypeia came from the stomach of Nola (the giant snake), so I doubt anyone missed it very much.
    Stealing unknown resources is still very much stealing. Even pretending to not know or not informing the the party of the actual value is very shady and possibly illegal.

    The skypeans knew about their newfound gold and the strawhats "took" it. That's like seeing a new friend win the lotto in front of you and waking up earlier the next day just so you can take his ticket and skip town.
    That's wrong on every level from moral/ethic to legal.

  2. #2442
    Discovered Stowaway No swords style best style's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by FolhaS View Post
    Stealing unknown resources is still very much stealing. Even pretending to not know or not informing the the party of the actual value is very shady and possibly illegal.

    The skypeans knew about their newfound gold and the strawhats "took" it. That's like seeing a new friend win the lotto in front of you and waking up earlier the next day just so you can take his ticket and skip town.
    That's wrong on every level from moral/ethic to legal.
    But in that analogy, your friend gains nothing while the Skypeians still got peace, their homeland, and an entire city of gold goodies. I would say that what Luffy and co did was more akin to fishing coupons out of your friend's trash. Yes, that is technically illegal, but I seriously doubt your friend would care enough to report you. Even if everyone learned about what the SHs took, I can't imagine a stronger reaction than "oh, ok." or anyone bothering to go collect the gold themselves if the SHs didn't steal it.

    I mean, the SHs could have taken ANYTHING from the literal city of gold, but instead they opt to clean out the digestive tract of a giant snake. And again, that is technically "immoral" and the most noble thing possible to do would be to give it all the Skypeians, but this was supposed to be the Straw Hat Pirates finally committing some piracy, and I think Oda intentionally had them take something that wouldn't affect anybody at all in the long run so that the heroes of the story (saving countries > sharing meat :P) don't do something really "bad."

  3. #2443

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Maybe. But even so, he didn't want to commit to the end.
    Is there the possiblility oda wasnt trying to have corazon as the sole truth. I feel if oda wanted to have a complete evil monster, he would havent tried to paint doflamingo as caring about his family, even if he still had them 2nd to himself, he could have just had him not care about them at all. Or if the born evil thing was true the whole trebol "it was us" incident revealed in 782 even afyer corazon's born evil comment showed the nurture side of it. Oda did commit to doflamingo
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  4. #2444
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Long John Silvers Rayleigh View Post
    Is there the possiblility oda wasnt trying to have corazon as the sole truth. I feel if oda wanted to have a complete evil monster, he would havent tried to paint doflamingo as caring about his family, even if he still had them 2nd to himself, he could have just had him not care about them at all. Or if the born evil thing was true the whole trebol "it was us" incident revealed in 782 even afyer corazon's born evil comment showed the nurture side of it. Oda did commit to doflamingo
    I want to agree with you. But then you also have moments like Law taunting Trebol by saying that he's only a disposable tool to Doflamingo instead of the valued master planner he thinks he is. And I think Doflamingo taunted Law a bit about Rosinante's death.

    It's not completely alien for Oda to, very rarely, give an antagonist a single redeeming trait. Arlong cared about his Fishmen brethren getting hurt by Zoro after all. But it barely changes anything about their irredeemable villain portrayal 99% of the time.

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  5. #2445
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I don't think oda would give BM one of the worst actions in a flashback if she was in the good zone and not villain.
    Whether that happened or not (which is a topic all on its own) it wasn't intentional.

    That's why I've been very careful about using words like 'intentional' and 'provoked'.

    Getting fruit for a cake -> murdering an entire island
    Not getting sweets -> destroying an island

    Pretty good context there if you ask me.
    1. But could you source that?

    Where it literally said she had her people murdered everyone on an entire island.

    See, it's said that Bobbin burned an island. And that sucks.

    She also said that people who don't protect their promises *should* die.

    But nowhere has it been written that her people have murdered everyone or even anyone on an island.

    You might think so -which is exactly the impression Oda wants to leave you with- but it has not been decidedly stated.

    2. No, there's no context there mate.

    In your above example, you *literally* provided only Mom's PoV which was my point.

    *You don't have the island's PoV*

    Did they betray her?

    Are they evil?

    Did they know what they were in for if they didn't protect their agreements with them.

    Why couldn't they deliver? Was it deliberate? Who was in charge of the island? Was someone in charge of the island trying to intentionally destroy it as part of a vile plan?

    Do you see my point?

    I'm not saying *any* of the above might be really happening. I'm saying, we just don't know because of how intentionally vague it is.

    If you have a character enjoy taking lives, body parts, whatever, and she has done these things to characters that can be considered good
    But she gives people a choice/chance.

    And when we've seen her offer that chance, it's been **provoked** by either invading her territory or breaking a promise with her.

  6. #2446

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Whether that happened or not (which is a topic all on its own) it wasn't intentional.

    That's why I've been very careful about using words like 'intentional' and 'provoked'.



    1. But could you source that?

    Where it literally said she had her people murdered everyone on an entire island.

    See, it's said that Bobbin burned an island. And that sucks.

    She also said that people who don't protect their promises *should* die.

    But nowhere has it been written that her people have murdered everyone or even anyone on an island.

    You might think so -which is exactly the impression Oda wants to leave you with- but it has not been decidedly stated.

    2. No, there's no context there mate.

    In your above example, you *literally* provided only Mom's PoV which was my point.

    *You don't have the island's PoV*

    Did they betray her?

    Are they evil?

    Did they know what they were in for if they didn't protect their agreements with them.

    Why couldn't they deliver? Was it deliberate? Who was in charge of the island? Was someone in charge of the island trying to intentionally destroy it as part of a vile plan?

    Do you see my point?

    I'm not saying *any* of the above might be really happening. I'm saying, we just don't know because of how intentionally vague it is.



    But she gives people a choice/chance.

    And when we've seen her offer that chance, it's been **provoked** by either invading her territory or breaking a promise with her.
    Oh like she gave a chance to Sanji by planning on her daughter giving him a bullet to the head.

    Misunderstood gal that Big Mom is.

  7. #2447

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Greg could totally justify Trump’s words and actions. Afterall, Trump have only hinted at the ability of using nuclear weapons :)

    Joke aside, the idea is probably that we are supposed to not really be fond of BM. I still have my tinfoil hat on about that cannablism until the arc is over.

  8. #2448

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Rocinante left Doffly after h killed his father and was raised by a marine. Doffly continue and be pushed by the same people that help him kill his dad and wanted him to rule the world. I get why Rocinante would have that opinion of the guy that last time he saw him killed his father and has been hanging with the same crew from back then. It doesn't erase all the writing that came after Rocinante declaration. It's not like it was the last thing we learned. Oda did give us more after and I doubt having the flashback that insist on the traumas of Doffla were just for fun.



    Would you say Carmel changed Big Mom world view?



    She spent 1 year with Carmel where all she did was enable her(which the commanders did for Doffly). Heck she even corrected her on assuming wathever other race were wrong when she tried to correct them. ANd she both died and got expelled due to Big Mom following her instincts rather than her instructions.



    But that was Big Mom interpretation to what she told her.


    I would say Doffly was bad and got encouraged to keep this worldview while Big Mom was a kid that never learned boundaries(thanks to her strength) and grew up to feel entitled to everything.


    I would say Dofla is evil and Big Mom is entitled.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---


    He was one the leaders of a 10 year enslavement of an island I would not call that trivial and Oda's way of washing it away was some mini stories and Nami deciding was meh he wasn't so bad. As long as you a scene where Luffy acknoledge Big Mom as no being to bad it will just be ok. Maybe something about not hating Lola anymore but the islands won't get any focus.
    Once again context. Was introduced as a fool kind of guy with comedic scenes -> is following Arlong out of loyalty -> is constantly talking about his comrades rather than the ideology of Arlong and fishmen being superior and so forth.
    His case is pretty similar to Robin, no initiator, simply follower, never shown to enjoy.
    In contrast to that you have someone who casually lets islands get destroyed, enjoys a game of "what body part or life i am gonna take today", has the fathers of her children killed and so forth.
    She is an initiator, is shown to enjoy, and even the degree of the deeds are far worse.

  9. #2449
    Live Fast Grow Fat Roronoa Zacho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I am really curious about the Reverie: I can see Wapol blaming Dalton for a "violent" pirate-Takeover of his former Kingdom (this wouldn't even be a lie, cause Luffy "violently" got rid of Wapol and Dalton somehow was made the king then).
    And I wonder if the gorousei would kill Kobra Nefertari secretly for "asking too many questions". He is already in bad shape, so a cover-up like an "accident" would be easy.
    The mermaid-princes and Shirahoshi are there as well. I wonder if Otohime brought a real letter from a tenryuubito back then. Aside from DD's dad, there had to be another "nice" world noble,who gave Otohime that paper.

    Something big has to happen anyway to lay out the final conflict of the world.
    Speakin of which: Oda once said, we should take a good look at the world of OP in an early SBS.
    After hundreds of chapters I came to the conclusion, that a whole lot of countries are at war with each other (DD established a Business on that fact), have civil wars, or get tyrannized by their leaders (often with the WG in Charge).
    I am also curious how royals and other parties of the WG are able to enter Maryjoa. I guess there has to be some Kind of Elevator-System. Question is: gets the ship lifted as well (like in W7) or does the ship stay at the foot of the Redline?

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  10. #2450
    Arf. (ᵔᴥᵔ) FelRes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Didn't Big Mom have that guy's sick father's head cut off and sent to him because he didn't attend a tea party so he could attend his mom's funeral? Like she's more of a dumbass than straight up evil, but there's hardly any real defense for her lol. It doesn't matter much if she gives choices if her choices are all terrible.
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  11. #2451

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by FelRes View Post
    Didn't Big Mom have that guy's sick father's head cut off and sent to him because he didn't attend a tea party so he could attend his mom's funeral? Like she's more of a dumbass than straight up evil, but there's hardly any real defense for her lol. It doesn't matter much if she gives choices if her choices are all terrible.
    Wasn't that a 'rumour'?
    Croco was more charismatic and more evil in Alabasta arc, yet Oda redeemed him to some extent.Big Mom till now is in much more brighter set up.Not that i like or feel for her character anyway...
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  12. #2452
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Didn't Big Mom have that guy's sick father's head cut off and sent to him because he didn't attend a tea party so he could attend his mom's funeral?
    You mean the deliberately introduced evil person? Not only did we already address that, we also discussed how Oda can totally backtrack on that. It's not very helpful retreading ground, please try to keep up.

    Oh like she gave a chance to Sanji by planning on her daughter giving him a bullet to the head.
    Misunderstood gal that Big Mom is.
    Your sarcasm isn't appreciated and it really makes you look foolish when your point is so weak.

    Already described that Mom can only be judged on the actions she's successfully followed through with. Like Luffy told Zoro to 'die' and was trying to kill him. Again, please keep up if you're going to comment, don't just waltz in, plop down a vapid comment and act like it was mic droppable.

    Furthermore...

    The Vinsmokes plotted to betray her and hold her child hostage.

    Mom intended to betray them all.

    And Luffy assisted in a plot to kill her.

    They're *all* jerks and absolutely *none* of them succeeded.

    And that's the point.

    Pedro's supposed sacrifice was his own decision.

    As it stands, the worst thing that's *definitely happened* to a living human without a shadow of a doubt, without having a chance of being undone and without the individual involved having a choice in it is Perospero's arm has been blown off ^o^
    Last edited by Greg; February 14th, 2018 at 04:45 AM.

  13. #2453
    Arf. (ᵔᴥᵔ) FelRes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    You mean the deliberately introduced evil person? Not only did we already address that, we also discussed how Oda can totally backtrack on that. It's not very helpful retreading ground, please try to keep up.
    That doesn't automatically mean the sick father was evil, yet he's the one who was killed. Sure Oda can choose to go back and make said father evil, but just because he can doesn't mean he will.
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  14. #2454
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    That doesn't automatically mean the sick father was evil, yet he's the one who was killed. Sure Oda can choose to go back and make said father evil, but just because he can doesn't mean he will.
    So the point is moot.

    Which is precisely my point.

    It's all Schrodinger's *anything* unless we see physical evidence that it actually transpired as such and not only is that on purpose, it's by design. Watch what characters succeed in doing onscreen, not what's said about them or what they say.

    What has Mom *successfully*,*willingly* and of *sound-mind* *on panel* done that has been *physically or mortally harmful* to an innocent character that *hasn't provoked her*?

    Well, she Haoushoku'd a guy.

    And although it hasn't been on-panel, we have reason to believe she supposedly willfully beat Chiffon because Chiffon should be a reliable character which *IS* really bad....IF it isn't the result of memory manipulation. This is also something I brought up pages ago.

    And anyway, as we also discussed earlier, that's also if said father is actually even dead to begin with.

    Some people might scoff at that but I'm just telling you why and how some characters are presented the way they are.

    What is there not to get ^O^

    I don't think Miyamoto thinks this way but there seem to be people that thinking I'm trying to argue that Mom is some pillar of moral perfection ^o^

    Mom is a villain. No doubt. But Oda has been very careful along the way to pave the way for readers to accept that she's not *pure willful evil*. And instead of you folks accepting this years down the line, I'm just telling you exactly what he's doing *right now*.

  15. #2455

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melker View Post
    Greg could totally justify Trump’s words and actions. Afterall, Trump have only hinted at the ability of using nuclear weapons :)

    Joke aside, the idea is probably that we are supposed to not really be fond of BM. I still have my tinfoil hat on about that cannablism until the arc is over.
    Wait isn't the Cannibalism theory all but confirmed by the fact that all her food are infused with souls. She associates good tasty food with them being sentient..i wonder where she got that idea.

    Oh its because she ate all the people in the orphanage.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  16. #2456

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    And anyway, as we also discussed earlier, that's also if said father is actually even dead to begin with.
    This can be easily explained with the prison library and Cracker.

    Some people might scoff at that but I'm just telling you why and how some characters are presented the way they are.
    I think she didn't eat the kids maybe Mother Carmel, but the kids were kidnapped and she just kept eating. Mother tried to get her to stop and well, you know.

    This is to further say she actually was the ~monster~ that ate the mountain witch and saved the kids.

    But I think that Big Mom is...big enough, to merit a slow transformation. How her type of rule would change within Tottoland and islands that are under protection outside of Tottoland, Fishman Island would be an example, she would become someone similar to Whitebeard(the big father), caring for family, etc.

    However, this should be noted after the Straw Hats leave, two weeks go by and she has not have a tantrum. Or at least I hope Sanji's special sauce stops Big Mom's craving forever. The reason she got banished from everywhere.

    Right now, as much as Big Mom is concerned, I am following Luffy and his adventure. I think that at this point escaping an emperor from the middle of her territory, to defeating an emperor with Kaido, he already has an ally with Shanks and Blackbeard, well... that sounds like a good progression. Even if Big Mom ends up becoming an ally, but that is only after her reputation has been tainted and the Straw Hats successfully escaped their "full intent of destroying them" especially with all these chapters talking about acknowledging an enemy(Jimbe, Katauri). Once the Straw Hats are safe from their clutches the transformation can occur.

    Big Mom can become relevant in Elbaf, if the giants are ever going to learn the truth about Mother Carmel and what really happened that day, Luffy can help reconcile these two forces which will become relevant by the end game.

    Anyways that is too far ahead.

    Oda of course leaves many possibilities open, if not he would not have re-introduced Stussy AND Morgans. If he decided to leave them as antagonists, but have to deal with marine forces and other pirates attacking their territory because of how much their reputation has been tarnished. Stussy did tell them about the bomb for a reason.
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  17. #2457

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    But she gives people a choice/chance.

    And when we've seen her offer that chance, it's been **provoked** by either invading her territory or breaking a promise with her.
    I'm pretty sure the story tells us that the roulette wheel is a sham and is always rigged so that people lose their life(span)? So that definitely supports the "She's just a d*ck" argument.

    I haven't read all the previous pages of discussion yet, but is there an argument as to whether Big Mom is pure evil, in a story in which NOT A SINGLE ANTAGONIST* has been shown to be pure evil? Because not a one of the evil guys we've seen so far has been doing it for the lulz*. They've all had dreams* and probably believed themselves to be right/justified in how they pursued those dreams, just like Luffy.



    *Exception applies to Hody Jones. He's the only one who was doing it for the lulz. But Hody Jones is also stupid, and has thus been disregarded for the sake of this argument.
    Last edited by Sirxxx; February 14th, 2018 at 07:34 AM.
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  18. #2458

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    So the point is moot.

    Which is precisely my point.

    It's all Schrodinger's *anything* unless we see physical evidence that it actually transpired as such and not only is that on purpose, it's by design. Watch what characters succeed in doing onscreen, not what's said about them or what they say.

    What has Mom *successfully*,*willingly* and of *sound-mind* *on panel* done that has been *physically or mortally harmful* to an innocent character that *hasn't provoked her*?

    Well, she Haoushoku'd a guy.

    And although it hasn't been on-panel, we have reason to believe she supposedly willfully beat Chiffon because Chiffon should be a reliable character which *IS* really bad....IF it isn't the result of memory manipulation. This is also something I brought up pages ago.

    And anyway, as we also discussed earlier, that's also if said father is actually even dead to begin with.

    Some people might scoff at that but I'm just telling you why and how some characters are presented the way they are.

    What is there not to get ^O^

    I don't think Miyamoto thinks this way but there seem to be people that thinking I'm trying to argue that Mom is some pillar of moral perfection ^o^

    Mom is a villain. No doubt. But Oda has been very careful along the way to pave the way for readers to accept that she's not *pure willful evil*. And instead of you folks accepting this years down the line, I'm just telling you exactly what he's doing *right now*.
    Nono, i get what you are saying. I do admit that Oda is keeping things more "open" than usual, open in the sense of giving him leeway to turn things around with her character and give her a sense of redemption, one would need to be blind to not see that the circumstances are pretty unusual for an antagonist by OP´s standards (open-ended flashback, being Lola´s mom, memory fruit, Streusen, her eating disorder), all i am saying is due to the degree of her shown depravity it has to be handled well to sustain credibility, that´s all.

  19. #2459

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirxxx View Post
    I'm pretty sure the story tells us that the roulette wheel is a sham and is always rigged so that people lose their life(span)? So that definitely supports the "She's just a d*ck" argument.
    Big Mom is evil and twisted. She killed Zepo. Luffy is a pirate (normally pirates are evil) and he has not killed anyone.

  20. #2460

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Yeah but in the case of pedro and zepo they tried to steal from her which in the time of pirates is justified for killing.

    Technically greg would probably say luffy is "justified to kill" everyone that tries shooting him with a gun because they are making an attempt on his life, it's only because "even the mooks are of made of iron" that he doesnt kill everyone thats essentially taking a 50 mph bowling ball to the head. That and he doesnt like to kill so if he knocks them out its fine enough

    The jinbe case is interesting though

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