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Thread: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

  1. #5501
    Undercover Shipwright Zeorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Your mileage will vary but yes. It's pretty radically different from language to language. That doesn't matter so much with a word we process as foreign, and the only actual difference is how it was spelled in translation. But if it completely changes the structure of the word and makes it into a new phrase, that can be important.

    The Maryjoa case is okay, because it was always sort of a foreign strange sounding word, so that one boils down to how it was originally translated and what we're used to, and any of those spellings would be fine, like Jinbe/Jimbei, and that's just a matter of what you're used to.

    For the Shiryu example, it may read roughly the same to you, but in english it looks like the difference between "Sheer-you", a nice easily pronounceable word, and "Shamalamadingdonghooobityscoobity". We see the jumble of letters that is "Shilliew" and thats not only something our tounges can't pronounce, but there aren't really any english words with similar layouts of I's and L's it looks super duper weird and makes out brains freeze up just on seeing it because its such an unusual word with a crazy interpretation.

    You ran into this a lot in the early days of One Piece where translations were going through chinese and then to English, and so you ended up with names like Liar Bu, Clark Dell, and Tanjiahdo Lofulamingo. Like, sure, you say "Clark Dell" outloud enough times it starts to sound like "Crocodile", but that's not something you sheer need to suss out and decipher, its meant to be obvious and clear.

    As far as Raftel/Laugh Tale... it sounds pretty close and revealing, as a reveal, that was its actual name all along is neat, but it's kind of akin to finding out that you named your dog "Spot", and actually in Japanese that name means "Giraffe." It puts a very different feel and context to a word we'd thought was just a name for 22 years, so that's jarring and weird. Had it started that was then it'd be no big deal.

    Reverie/Levely is another one that's super weird because... okay, everything being level is probably Oda's intent in the naming, but its just not a real word and makes no sense in English.
    I think there are multiple problems with naming things between languages and as someone who taught English in Japan a lot of Japanese people have a hard time pronouncing foreign words just due to how few sounds Japanese has and the way Japanese words are essentially built with syllables or sounds and not letters. When words get translated directly between the two languages they change a lot, sometimes even when they should be very easy to pronounce. For example, Japanese actually uses a lot of English words and the word "new" literally sounds the exact same as "nu (ぬ or ヌ)" in Japanese and yet for some reason it became "nyu (ニュー)" maybe because "ew" can sound like "yu" and somebody translated the written version of the word instead of the actual pronunciation. I don't think there is a point trying to understand how some things translate so strangely.

    Shiryu vs Shilliew is easily understandable because Shiryu uses the Standard English Translation for Japanese, and Shilliew is like how someone would try and make an English word sound the exact same as how it sounds in Japanese with no real understanding of how strange it would actually look in English. Also Shiryu sounds more like Shilliew looks, so it's more like "she lee+you" (sorry the "l/r" straight to "you" doesn't really exist in English, you have to touch your tongue to the top of your mouth like making an L sound then go straight to "you" as your tongue comes down).

    Another example of the difficulties is that if you ask a native English speaker who has no knowledge of Japanese to listen to a Japanese person pronounce English words that have been incorporated into Japanese they wouldn't be able to understand half of them. Like "nyuu" instead of new. Table sounds like Taybooroo, McDonalds is Macoo Doenaroodoe. Sorry I'm trying to write phonetically so there is no misinterpretation of the sounds in English but English just has the problem of letters and letter combinations having multiple sounds. This is why a Standard English Translation, or at least that is what I will call it, is used but if someone with no understanding of Japanese sounds reads a Japanese word in English they just use the easiest English reading for it. So writing Shiryu is actually the correct way to write his name in English but because we wouldn't pronounce it "shi ryu" it becomes "shir yu" whereas we see "sushi" and naturally pronounce it as "su shi" because that looks like the best way to pronounce it.

    Unless the manga creator is actually very proficient at English you will end up with strange official translations as they have the final say and they might not study English or anything. They might just write something out, decide it looks cool written like that, and decide it is the official English translation. If the choices are between Shiryu and Shilliew, and neither look like native English, but Shiryu looks like Japanese English, than does that mean Shilliew looks more like English than Shiryu?

    I feel like I've accomplished nothing, but my point was that all this stuff is needlessly confusing and complicated because that is what happens when you try to translate directly between two languages that are so drastically different.
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  2. #5502

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Your mileage will vary but yes. It's pretty radically different from language to language. That doesn't matter so much with a word we process as foreign, and the only actual difference is how it was spelled in translation. But if it completely changes the structure of the word and makes it into a new phrase, that can be important.

    The Maryjoa case is okay, because it was always sort of a foreign strange sounding word, so that one boils down to how it was originally translated and what we're used to, and any of those spellings would be fine, like Jinbe/Jimbei, and that's just a matter of what you're used to.

    For the Shiryu example, it may read roughly the same to you, but in english it looks like the difference between "Sheer-you", a nice easily pronounceable word, and "Shamalamadingdonghooobityscoobity". We see the jumble of letters that is "Shilliew" and thats not only something our tounges can't pronounce, but there aren't really any english words with similar layouts of I's and L's it looks super duper weird and makes out brains freeze up just on seeing it because its such an unusual word with a crazy interpretation.

    You ran into this a lot in the early days of One Piece where translations were going through chinese and then to English, and so you ended up with names like Liar Bu, Clark Dell, and Tanjiahdo Lofulamingo. Like, sure, you say "Clark Dell" outloud enough times it starts to sound like "Crocodile", but that's not something you sheer need to suss out and decipher, its meant to be obvious and clear.

    As far as Raftel/Laugh Tale... it sounds pretty close and revealing, as a reveal, that was its actual name all along is neat, but it's kind of akin to finding out that you named your dog "Spot", and actually in Japanese that name means "Giraffe." It puts a very different feel and context to a word we'd thought was just a name for 22 years, so that's jarring and weird. Had it started that was then it'd be no big deal.

    Reverie/Levely is another one that's super weird because... okay, everything being level is probably Oda's intent in the naming, but its just not a real word and makes no sense in English.
    Aah.. if you put it that way, i can understand it. yeah, language is very hard and many time doesn't make sense.
    also, when it come to Reverie/Levely, I totally agree with fanbase.
    I hope translators and mangakas can work closer in the future to create more consistance translation even though just like you said in the previous pages that even mangakas intent cannot 100% be translated due to their limited knowledge on other languages.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    I think there are multiple problems with naming things between languages and as someone who taught English in Japan a lot of Japanese people have a hard time pronouncing foreign words just due to how few sounds Japanese has and the way Japanese words are essentially built with syllables or sounds and not letters. When words get translated directly between the two languages they change a lot, sometimes even when they should be very easy to pronounce. For example, Japanese actually uses a lot of English words and the word "new" literally sounds the exact same as "nu (ぬ or ヌ)" in Japanese and yet for some reason it became "nyu (ニュー)" maybe because "ew" can sound like "yu" and somebody translated the written version of the word instead of the actual pronunciation. I don't think there is a point trying to understand how some things translate so strangely.

    Shiryu vs Shilliew is easily understandable because Shiryu uses the Standard English Translation for Japanese, and Shilliew is like how someone would try and make an English word sound the exact same as how it sounds in Japanese with no real understanding of how strange it would actually look in English. Also Shiryu sounds more like Shilliew looks, so it's more like "she lee+you" (sorry the "l/r" straight to "you" doesn't really exist in English, you have to touch your tongue to the top of your mouth like making an L sound then go straight to "you" as your tongue comes down).

    Another example of the difficulties is that if you ask a native English speaker who has no knowledge of Japanese to listen to a Japanese person pronounce English words that have been incorporated into Japanese they wouldn't be able to understand half of them. Like "nyuu" instead of new. Table sounds like Taybooroo, McDonalds is Macoo Doenaroodoe. Sorry I'm trying to write phonetically so there is no misinterpretation of the sounds in English but English just has the problem of letters and letter combinations having multiple sounds. This is why a Standard English Translation, or at least that is what I will call it, is used but if someone with no understanding of Japanese sounds reads a Japanese word in English they just use the easiest English reading for it. So writing Shiryu is actually the correct way to write his name in English but because we wouldn't pronounce it "shi ryu" it becomes "shir yu" whereas we see "sushi" and naturally pronounce it as "su shi" because that looks like the best way to pronounce it.

    Unless the manga creator is actually very proficient at English you will end up with strange official translations as they have the final say and they might not study English or anything. They might just write something out, decide it looks cool written like that, and decide it is the official English translation. If the choices are between Shiryu and Shilliew, and neither look like native English, but Shiryu looks like Japanese English, than does that mean Shilliew looks more like English than Shiryu?

    I feel like I've accomplished nothing, but my point was that all this stuff is needlessly confusing and complicated because that is what happens when you try to translate directly between two languages that are so drastically different.
    I don't know japanese but this is cool and funny to me because reading this, I can actually understand why japanese choose "nyu (ニュー)" instead of "nu (ぬ or ヌ)" and other example. Based on our language, they do sound closer to the english counterpart.

  3. #5503

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I'm sorry for my misunderstandment, but this was really confusing to me because of some unintentional ambiguity in both these phrases here: "If Go players find themselves giving up because there is an AI that can beat even the top masters in the World, then they were already limited to begin with. The Go AI is simply a collection of all our current data on the game, it should mark the beginning of one's mastery of the game."

    Anyway, all this debate was off topic, so I apologize to the other people too.
    No worries, I am more than happy to explain myself. It is my bad for being lazy in the first place and not expressing myself clearly.

    @Robby, as I already clarified above, I included the data generated by the GO AI through its multiple games against itself as "data we have of the game". I didn't express myself properly. Although, then you say that the AI used millions of previous matches besides the ones it played itself, so I am not sure how that doesn't qualify as data of the game. At the end of the day, I was talking about the inputs towards the AI, either done through supervised or unsupervised learning, it will still hold limitations with either approach.

    Otherwise, I disagree. Just because we cannot comprehend the moves done by the AI yet, it does not mean that game analysts are not going to try and understand why. Even the game you mentioned, the 4-1. The player and his professional friends were analyzing how the game progressed, which moves did the AI have difficulty with.

    So yes, now that we have achieved something that can play as well as grand masters, the way the game is taught can be changed. As little kids are pitied against: "world class opponents" in their beginning years, when they would require years of playing, tournaments to get to experience that level, now it can be used in conjunction with their current learning practices. So the idea is not: "can we study the AI game plan to beat it". As you say that is extremely unlikely/difficult. But you can definitely say: " Can we study the AI play to improve our(human) game plan".

    One last article: https://www.wired.com/story/deepmind...telligence/amp

    Talks about the limitations of current AI techniques, with a focus on supervised ai learning.
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  4. #5504

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Kira XXIII View Post
    No, otherwise predictive text would not be possible.
    You've lost me a bit here. If i understood ya correctly a "deeper" conversation with a lover or a friend is a specific edge scenario. But you don't think that those type of specific conversational scenarios make up the bulk of everyday conversations? Like i feel like i'm misunderstanding you or that we are talking about different things. Also i would very much like for someone to use a translator to have this conversation.



    That might be possible using brain wave manipulation.

    It all depends if you see these technologies as an enhancement or as a replacement. Thinking of the former and using Go as an example. If Go players find themselves giving up because there is an AI that can beat even the top masters in the World, then they were already limited to begin with. The Go AI is simply a collection of all our current data on the game, it should mark the beginning of one's mastery of the game. The same idea with language. Oda's idea of the translator as a replacement is really extreme. And you may feel able to live in an English society now, but at one point you were not. So maybe during your first week you cannot have incredibly deep conversations, but I am sure by the second you would start calling people fudge pockets all the same.

    Learning the language properly by studying it is one option. There are plenty of people that learn the language just by going to a place and being exposed constantly with it and having to learn it to survive and end up integrating into the society just fine. Using an AI translator for a week or two would not impede you from having meaningful conversation down the line.
    Oh yeah no i don't doubt even for a second that technology will make huge headways that make learning languages easier and makes basic communication easier. And the brain wave thing sounds sci-fi enough to work. I'm really just shit posting and poking fun at the fact that a dude in like his fifties holds the belief that he will live to see language education be fully replaced by star trek translators. It's like hey maybe i'll drop out of school since sooner or later they'll invent smart pills. Like it's not even being positive about the future, it's just being present day dumb. Alright i'm done with going at the strawman of what some dude never said now.

  5. #5505

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Sorry for the continued derailment. Something about One Piece...

    Oh! - Going by what Big Mom said that King is from the race that was supposed to be wiped out. So, when did this genocide occur? The most likely target is during the events of the Void Century. Which puts it around 800 years ago. I cannot imagine that King is that old, so he must have had parents, and consequently a tribe/group from where he came from. Unless it is revealed that the government managed to wipe out this group and King is in fact, the sole survivor of his race. We are going to eventually meet them.

    Now, thinking about protagonists, and considering the setting we have with the Void century and everything else related to it. (In other words, pretty much the entire series). The main question would be: is it necessary that a member of this race to join as the final member of the crew? The first counter-point would be: well, we have Jimbe already. The idea of a Fishman joining the crew started boiling in my mind since the auction house. We were seeing Nami grow as a character when she forgave Hacchi but most importantly, we got contrast. We saw that Fishmen, were small fish in the pond and actually a segregated race. Most importantly, Luffy whom is the one that is going to eventually break the status quo, was getting further groomed to represent this role. This gets further reinforced in Fishman Island (hero meat) and in WCI (Jimbe's speech).

    So, no, it is not completely necessary for the last member to be from this race. As the themes that come along with it can be expressed through Jimbe's character. However, considering where we are in the story. It becomes more likely that for the final crew member to be tied to the Void Century in some way. The Three-Eyed Tribe is also a good candidate for this considering that they probably have been chased around for their ability with the Voice of All things, and whatever further evolution of that power entails or however way Oda decides to handle the third eye power.
    Last edited by K. Kira XXIII; August 15th, 2019 at 07:44 AM.
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  6. #5506
    Undercover Shipwright Zeorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Kira XXIII View Post
    Sorry for the continued derailment. Something about One Piece...

    Oh! - Going by what Big Mom said that King is from the race that was supposed to be wiped out. So, when did this genocide occur? The most likely target is during the events of the Void Century. Which puts it around 800 years ago. I cannot imagine that King is that old, so he must have had parents, and consequently a tribe/group from where he came from. Unless it is revealed that the government managed to wipe out this group and King is in fact, the sole survivor of his race. We are going to eventually meet them.

    Now, thinking about protagonists, and considering the setting we have with the Void century and everything else related to it. (In other words, pretty much the entire series). The main question would be: is it necessary that a member of this race to join as the final member of the crew? The first counter-point would be: well, we have Jimbe already. The idea of a Fishman joining the crew started boiling in my mind since the auction house. We were seeing Nami grow as a character when she forgave Hacchi but most importantly, we got contrast. We saw that Fishmen, were small fish in the pond and actually a segregated race. Most importantly, Luffy whom is the one that is going to eventually break the status quo, was getting further groomed to represent this role. This gets further reinforced in Fishman Island (hero meat) and in WCI (Jimbe's speech).

    So, no, it is not completely necessary for the last member to be from this race. As the themes that come along with it can be expressed through Jimbe's character. However, considering where we are in the story. It becomes more likely that for the final crew member to be tied to the Void Century in some way. The Three-Eyed Tribe is also a good candidate for this considering that they probably have been chased around for their ability with the Voice of All things, and whatever further evolution of that power entails or however way Oda decides to handle the third eye power.
    To be specific we don't know that the race was killed off, just that they supposedly disappeared. They could have gone into hiding kind of how Minks live on a moving island people can't find or skypieans live on sky islands most people can't get to.

    Luffy doesn't need a member of every race in his crew, there are too many and we know his crew is meant to be small. They are free to and encouraged to join the Straw Hat Alliance of course.

    As for King's race, I made a crazy prediction in the chapter thread but I will throw it here too.

    Okay, so we already know that Oda is going all in on this Wano (Japan) arc and has already included many beasts/creatures/beings from Japanese folklore.

    As soon as Luffy woke up he encountered a Komainu named Komachiyo. Then in a recent SBS Oda also explained that there are other creatures with flaming fur called Komashika (Hawkin's mount), Komadane, and Komatori.

    Of course we have also been introduced to a Tengu or Daitengu named Hitetsu and a Kappa named Kawamatsu, both very famous Yokai from Japanese lore.

    So considering the existance of all these beings, why couldn't King's race also come from Japanese lore. I will offer my opinion that King is a Karura.

    Karura are bird-like creatures and actually are the Japanese equivalent to the Garuda from Hinduism. They have the wings and face/beak of a bird. Continuing with this "bird" theme but knowing Oda wanted all of Kaido's All-Stars to be dinosaurs or ancient zoan related he gave King the pteranadon devil fruit to still give him wings and a beak but not break from the ancient zoan theme.

    They are also heavily associated with fire and said to breath fire. The fire halo that appears behind some beings is also referred to as the "karura flame" and that is what King has. That isn't his hair.

    Interestingly, they are also the mortal enemies of naga in Hinduism and snakes/dragons in Japanese Buddhist lore. It is also said that a dragon can only escape a karura by possessing a Buddhist talisman or converting to Buddhism.

    Spoiler:


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  7. #5507

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Kira XXIII View Post
    Although, then you say that the AI used millions of previous matches besides the ones it played itself, so I am not sure how that doesn't qualify as data of the game.
    The millions of matches are the ones the AI is playing against itself, the self-play.

  8. #5508

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    To be specific we don't know that the race was killed off, just that they supposedly disappeared.
    I do not think the difference matters. They would have disappeared all the same if they were risking genocide. The race was "supposed to be killed off" meaning that the cleansing as Im puts it was not thorough enough.

    They could have gone into hiding kind of how Minks live on a moving island people can't find
    From the looks of it, the Minks aren't precisely there by choice. But that is besides the point, people know about the Minks. Were they not part of the list at the auction house? Even their super secret technique, an outsider like Jimbe was aware what Sulong was.

    or skypieans live on sky islands most people can't get to.
    There is a slight difference. As Big Mom is very knowledgeable, what she said to King should be a clear indicator that King is extremely rare unlike the other races you mention. Even if they decided to become hermits and were not part of the void century stuff, their numbers are so small, and scarce, that they are thought to be extinct.

    Luffy doesn't need a member of every race in his crew, there are too many and we know his crew is meant to be small. They are free to and encouraged to join the Straw Hat Alliance of course.
    Luffy does not need a member of every race, and the Alliance will cover a lot if not most of the remaining races. But if King's race is as unique/rare as Big Mom mentions, and if they were a target of the cleansing that occurred during the void century. Then a member of this race becoming a protagonist to fight what previously eradicated most of your species. Unlike the giants or Minks that each have their own nation, in other words, thousands of people. The vibe I get for King's race is the same as the Three Eyed group. Both have been reduced to small tribes. Which gives a member of that race a good motivator to sail out with the guy that will change the world.

    As for King's race, I made a crazy prediction in the chapter thread but I will throw it here too.
    What is the prediction?
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  9. #5509
    Ou l‘optimisme Candide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I wonder if all this classy craftsmanship from Wano like Seastone, Poneglyphs and Master Swords may have any connection to this winged race.

  10. #5510

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    The perished race seems more like an interesting addition to the world rather than being connected to the main mystery

  11. #5511

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I really like non human characters so I'd be excited to see Luffy get some character of an unknown race as his last crewmate

    Or possibly as a grand fleet member

  12. #5512
    Charismatic Awesome Joy Boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Greg what's your take on Oda off paneling a fight of this magnitude ?


  13. #5513
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Are we sure it's an actual fight?

    I joked on Twitter that they're playing Catan but they seriously could just be playing cards or arm-wrestling.

  14. #5514

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    They are making the next Pirate King.

  15. #5515
    Charismatic Awesome Joy Boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Are we sure it's an actual fight?

    I joked on Twitter that they're playing Catan but they seriously could just be playing cards or arm-wrestling.
    Island is shaking, Big Mom has bruises and the minions said also said the island won’t last for long


  16. #5516

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I was really hoping for a Rox back story

  17. #5517

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    After the arc ends, we will discover that Big Mom is pregnant.

  18. #5518
    Arf. (ᵔᴥᵔ) FelRes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by imperioonepiece View Post
    After the arc ends, we will discover that Big Mom is pregnant.
    God Usopp strikes again
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  19. #5519

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy Boy View Post
    Island is shaking, Big Mom has bruises and the minions said also said the island won’t last for long
    Pretty sure these two could be doing this even playing crosswords
    Prediction.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    a team of allosaurus, spinosaurus, pterodactyl, branchiosaurus, triceratops and ankylosaurus, keeping the T-Rex one for King and megalodon for Queen.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    what if Rocks wanted to become the king of world... and he did i? Imu revealed to be Rocks could be a twist

  20. #5520
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Island is shaking, Big Mom has bruises and the minions said also said the island won’t last for long
    They're emperors. They could be playing Twister and have the same results.

    Again, like with Cake Theory, reject all assumptions based on what you see.

    Same thing with Ryuma v. Zoro (which I also called the Hell out of) assume that Oda is always trying to fool you.

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