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Thread: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

  1. #41

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    Watched Animal House for the first time earlier tonight. All around, a really funny movie that really holds up and is a true testament to crude juvenile self-indulgence and rebellion. There are some jokes that maybe miss the mark or don't hold up quite so well, but the movie is still well worth seeing. And John Belushi, of course, steals the show.

  2. #42
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    I finally watched Fantastic Beasts the other day after painfully avoiding spoilers until I was able to get to the theatre.

    I ADORED IT. I cried. I don't even want to read any criticism about it because I had a permanent look of child-like wonder on my face for the entire movie and I'm just going to hold on to this glee of a new, actually canon forrealthistime, JKR series that was like JK Rowling tapped me on the shoulder and was like, "Hi, Femme. I'm back."

    There were a few ehh moments but overall it was absolutely lovely. I walked out of that theatre an emotional wreck. My poor hubby had to deal with an entire evening of "OMG I'M SO SAD BUT SO HAPPY :')".

    In other words, I'm welcoming back my dormant HP fanatic side of me and I'm quite happy about it.
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  3. #43
    Must've been rats Sakonosolo's Avatar
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    Been wanting to re-read Wuthering Heights but decided watching one of the movie adaptations would be good to do until I decide to do it. Decided on the 2009 version (two part miniseries) with Tom Hardy and I enjoyed it quite a bit. The book isn't fresh in my mind so some of the liberties wouldn't have bothered me, though the pacing seemed really fast which caused some problems but that's always going to happen if you try condensing an entire book into 2 hours. The dialogue at times got drowned out by the music/background sound too which made it even harder to understand some things with the British accents. Worth watching though I'd say. I've seen people say the book is unfilmable but I think a 4-5 hour long miniseries would work. It's not particularly demanding in the special effects department like LOTR was, which people also said was unfilmable.

    Also Tom Hardy is a pretty good actor. I've seen a few movies with him but never really recognized them as him until recently. His Bane voice kind of sneaks through as Heathcliff at times which is kind of funny.

  4. #44
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    M. Night Shyamalan seems to have some kind of groove back. His last 2 movies have been both good. Entertaining to say the least. Just saw Split this weekend and, yeah, it was fun. Surprisingly humorous at times and sufficiently creepy. James McAvoy(?) was the shining star of course.

    Also, if you haven't seen M. Night's previous movie 'Unbreakable' I suggest watching that first. It's not necessary but it is recommended.
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  5. #45

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    I watched Men In Black 1 again last night. That movie has so much untapped meme potential.

  6. #46

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    I watched Sherlock Holmes: Games of Shadows. Just wanna point that it is good to see Robert Downey Jr. that is not Tony Stark.
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  7. #47
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    I just watched La La Land, a romantic movie musical starring Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling that came out early December. It felt like a modern interpretation of classic movie musicals like Singin' in the Rain, West Side Story, Guys and Dolls, Moulin Rouge, etc.

    I freaking adored it. All of the songs are top notch, the jazz was orgasmic, the choreography and one-shot takes for are absolutely insane, and the character development and conflict are so refreshingly non-cliche. Even if you aren't into musicals, I still recommend it based on where the story goes alone in the second half. If you've ever been had risky life ambitions that you pour your passion into, this movie will speak to you in such an inspiring realistic way that can be both optimistic and bittersweet. It won several Golden Globe awards, including Best Musical or Comedy Motion picture. And this film definitely deserved them.
    Last edited by Count Mario; January 25th, 2017 at 08:25 AM.

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  8. #48

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    I recently went to see Manchester By The Sea in the cinema. And it was as sad as I expected, but very very good!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manche...the_Sea_(film)

  9. #49

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    Just saw Akira(1988),it's definitely worth watching.Voice acting,animation,soundtrack...,everything is great.A real classic.


  10. #50
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    I just watched La La Land, a romantic movie musical starring Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling that came out early December. It felt like a modern interpretation of classic movie musicals like Singin' in the Rain, West Side Story, Guys and Dolls, Moulin Rouge, etc.

    I freaking adored it. All of the songs are top notch, the jazz was orgasmic, the choreography and one-shot takes for are absolutely insane, and the character development and conflict are so refreshingly non-cliche. Even if you aren't into musicals, I still recommend it based on where the story goes alone in the second half. If you've ever been had risky life ambitions that you pour your passion into, this movie will speak to you in such an inspiring realistic way that can be both optimistic and bittersweet. It won several Golden Globe awards, including Best Musical or Comedy Motion picture. And this film definitely deserved them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuan View Post
    I recently went to see Manchester By The Sea in the cinema. And it was as sad as I expected, but very very good!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manche...the_Sea_(film)
    Both great movies with plenty of oscar buzz around them. Expect them to win a couple of awards.
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  11. #51
    Acting the Goat Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    I just watched La La Land, a romantic movie musical starring Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling that came out early December. It felt like a modern interpretation of classic movie musicals like Singin' in the Rain, West Side Story, Guys and Dolls, Moulin Rouge, etc.

    I freaking adored it. All of the songs are top notch, the jazz was orgasmic, the choreography and one-shot takes for are absolutely insane, and the character development and conflict are so refreshingly non-cliche. Even if you aren't into musicals, I still recommend it based on where the story goes alone in the second half. If you've ever been had risky life ambitions that you pour your passion into, this movie will speak to you in such an inspiring realistic way that can be both optimistic and bittersweet. It won several Golden Globe awards, including Best Musical or Comedy Motion picture. And this film definitely deserved them.
    I wanted to write up on it when I saw it. I thought it was one of the worst pieces of trash I'd ever paid money for, haha. Mind you I like musicals, and I don't mind sappy writing, but I thought it was a complete failure on both of those fronts. The songs were pretty bland (could any number in there hold up to, say, "Singing in the Rain"?), and I couldn't get emotionally invested in the protags, because they were a couple of toxically codependent narcissists with a relationship built on distrust, lies, and a lack of communication. Especially the lack of communication, since their biggest fights and conflicts could have been solved if either of them knew how to use a damn phone (their date at the movie theater jeopardized by the girl's plans, which she didn't bother telling the dude about, or the dude's conflict with the photoshoot and missing the girl's play, which he didn't bother telling her about, or even at the end when the dude was about to drive off without her when she went to get coffee, where he didn't even bother sending a text before he was about to abandon her).

    The character writing was sorta sickening to me, since the movie's written like we're supposed to cheer for these people, when almost all of their problems are their own fault, and they never admit to it or have to learn from it. The girl's always cold and distant, starting the movie off breaking a relationship with one dude coldly to pursue the main dude, and by the end she breaks off all ties with him (not even sending him a letter or a text or checking him on goddamn facebook because she somehow didn't know that he got the club). The dude, on the other hand, goes from being stuck in a rut, wallowing in the remnants of a failed ambition and by the end of the movie he's sstuck in a rut and wallowing in the remnants of his failed relationship (years after it ended, just move on dude). The ending has that crappy flashback scene (which was really good looking, probably the best scene in the movie, if taken alone, but it came out of nowhere and undermined the narrative), where we see the girl move on and in a happy marriage with a child, and the note we end on is the dude's weird stalker dream where he still feels entitled to her (the girl who he was about to abandon because he couldn't be bothered texting her, and the same girl who chewed him out about getting a steady job with a band because she didn't like the music)? So are we supposed to feel like it's cool to obsess over someone who's moved on? Or feel bad that they achieved both of their dreams, but the dude won't stick his which in another oil pot?

    About the only dudes who had their shit together at all were the 'antagonists'. The JK Simmons character running his bar/restaurant who fired the main dude after giving him multiple chances and an explicit warning, and the one musician friend who the male lead was an utter snob to, but was absolutely right about jazz needing to evolve, and found a lot of success with his band, so good for him.

    So what part of the thing was I supposed to find good?

    Sorry, I know different strokes and whatnot and I don't mean to blow up on you specifically, I was just intending to rant about that movie eventually, and your comment reminded me to, haha.

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  12. #52
    Must've been rats Sakonosolo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Your dislike makes the best picture win that much more likely. I might have to watch it just to see how bad it is.

  13. #53
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    I wanted to write up on it when I saw it. I thought it was one of the worst pieces of trash I'd ever paid money for, haha. Mind you I like musicals, and I don't mind sappy writing, but I thought it was a complete failure on both of those fronts.
    ...Wow. I can't believe how much I disagree with you. I guess it's time to take it from the top then.

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    The songs were pretty bland (could any number in there hold up to, say, "Singing in the Rain"?)
    Very much so. Plenty of the songs are still stuck in my head, and everybody I talk about the film with at least hums one or two songs after coming out of the theatre. A Lovely Night, Audition, and Epilogue still captivate me every time I listen.

    and I couldn't get emotionally invested in the protags, because they were a couple of toxically codependent narcissists with a relationship built on distrust, lies, and a lack of communication. Especially the lack of communication, since their biggest fights and conflicts could have been solved if either of them knew how to use a damn phone

    Not really remembering any times where they explicitly lied to each other. And no, the lack of digital communication wouldn't have helped alleviate the conflicts at all besides making their reveals a bit less shocking.

    their date at the movie theater jeopardized by the girl's plans, which she didn't bother telling the dude about,

    Maybe that's because she was in a relationship with a guy she could care less about and vice-versa? They mention that the previous boyfriend is always fixated on his job and going off to places (which ironically matches how Sebastian's band tours got him to do the same, so that was probably a purposeful foreshadowing/parallel). He even accepts an international business call in the middle of the dinner lol. I admit that including her already having a boyfriend in the first place was wonky because I don't remember the film mentioning he existed in the first place beforehand. But it's understandable why the guy was forgettable. Not that this means it's justifiable for you to romantic partner in the dust like that, but it's clear there wasn't any legitimate spark there to begin with.

    or the dude's conflict with the photoshoot and missing the girl's play, which he didn't bother telling her about,
    They literally just had a huge argument the previous day. Of course they're not going to keep intimately talking to each other. It's because of that argument that Sebastian felt displaced enough to accept the photo shoot due to his mindset at the time thinking that Mia was wrong about him making a bad choice in committing to to a life he doesn't want that will compromise his dream. And even then, do you really think a cellular conversation where you say you might miss out on or be late to the event where your loved one's dream is either going to fly or die is really going to be handled with pure composure? For a photo shoot, of all things? At least he tried to make it to the play and apparently didn't think he would be that late. Considering the distance placed between them from the fight the previous day, it's completely logical for Sebastian to have the mindset of not wanting to talk, wanting to accept the photo shoot to sustain his insecurities about his tour gig after feeling he was insulted, and thinking that he could still make it on time for the play.

    or even at the end when the dude was about to drive off without her when she went to get coffee, where he didn't even bother sending a text before he was about to abandon her

    Are you talking about the scene where Mia is with her husband? If so, I guess that was awkward. I didn't really pay attention to that besides seeing how it's an obvious parallel to the first coffee shop scene in the movie.

    The girl's always cold and distant, starting the movie off breaking a relationship with one dude coldly to pursue the main dude

    A guy she could reasonably feel ambivalent towards. She was selfish, yes, but it was an understandable choice.

    and by the end she breaks off all ties with him (not even sending him a letter or a text or checking him on goddamn facebook because she somehow didn't know that he got the club)
    The end of the film takes place at least FIVE YEARS later. After she has a family, including kids. I think it's pretty understandable that after splitting up to pursue their busy careers for that long (careers that taken them around various states/countries no less), they might have not remained in contact. That happens to plenty of initially close friends in real life, let alone exes. Not to mention that contacting an ex randomly like that can reasonably be awkward.

    The dude, on the other hand, goes from being stuck in a rut, wallowing in the remnants of a failed ambition and by the end of the movie he's sstuck in a rut and wallowing in the remnants of his failed relationship (years after it ended, just move on dude)

    Except that the relationship was forced to end because their jobs couldn't have them together. It's pretty understandable for Sebastian to suddenly have some feelings rise up when meeting someone who's practically his soul mate the first time out of the blue. It doesn't mean he's pathetic or will automatically give up everything just to be with her. There's nothing wrong with thinking about what could have been when you see your ex again. You make it sound like he suddenly cried on stage and then begged to Mia to get back with him again and abandon her family for his sake in front of her husband.

    The ending has that crappy flashback scene (which was really good looking, probably the best scene in the movie, if taken alone, but it came out of nowhere and undermined the narrative) where we see the girl move on and in a happy marriage with a child,
    It was surprising, sure, but it still flowed fine. Mia and Sebastian saw each other again, and they got reminded of all the emotions they invested in their relationship and what it would have been like they had stayed with each other or if everything went perfectly enough for their relationship to have still worked out. The movie pretty clearly builds up the piano song that Sebastian plays, Epilogue, throughout the movie as being meaningful to the couple. It was hearing that which made Mia leave the date with her ex in the restaurant. Not to mention how the conflict that split them apart largely focused on Sebastian's love for jazz, which he successfully conveyed to Mia who originally didn't care for the genre. It was clearly established to mean a lot to them.

    and the note we end on is the dude's weird stalker dream where he still feels entitled to her (the girl who he was about to abandon because he couldn't be bothered texting her, and the same girl who chewed him out about getting a steady job with a band because she didn't like the music)?
    Actually, I thought Mia was the one who had that what if flashback sequence. You know, since the flashback began and ended with Mia staring at Sebastian, not to mention all of the scenes where the husband is replaced with Sebastian that Sebastian himself couldn't have possibly known.

    But getting to the point, how does thinking about a past relationship sentimentally mean Sebastian feels entitled to Mia? They broke up because of understandable mistakes and occupation difficulties, which were out of their control to some degree at least on Mia's part while Sebastian couldn't back out even after he may have started regretting it. And she didn't chew him out because she didn't like the music, you completely misunderstood the point of that argument. The point being that she could tell Sebastian was getting entangled in a job that he clearly didn't have passion for and went against what he loved about music, was going to obstruct his freedom for years, and prevent his initial dream of wanting a night club from potentially ever being fulfilled. She wasn't acting selfishly, she was taking an issue with it for HIS own benefit because she could tell he was becoming an insecure hypocrite. Especially after how he frequently inspired her to not burden yourself with what other people superficially think and to pursue something you're passionate about, which will in turn get attract people without having to give up your integrity. They argued because they cared about each other.

    He got a steady job alright. Which he also didn't care a lot for. At all besides lying to himself due to feeling guilty from overhearing Mia's phone call with her mother about all of the financial risks they're taking with opening up an independent play and night club. You can see in the first practice session that he is obviously not into contemporary electronic music. And when the dinner date starts heating up into an argument as Mia questions Sebastian about if he likes the music he's playing (in which she previously said she liked it, but clarified that she never knew he liked THAT TYPE of music), he stutters and immediately dodges the question by asking why that matters, and then tries to spin the argument into claiming that Mia wanted him to get into the band gig rather than his own insecurities. She was looking out for him in wanting him to be happy and to work just for the sake of surviving without personal fulfillment, especially if it meant just catering to whatever the band and public wants despite his say being different.

    ANYBODY in a relationship should look out for their significant other like that if they care about their happiness and know they are losing out on a dream they initially promised to make. If this argument was actually badly written, Sebastian would've succumbed to that cliche of becoming a conceited celebrity who sold out where he starts wearing ridiculous flashy clothing due to letting the success go to his head while Mia makes some generic "IT USED TO BE ABOUT THE MUSIC, MAN" speech (although the latter KIND OF still happened, but still had a much more realistic and humane execution than how cliché it could've been). Or going for some dumb love triangle/affair spat.

    So are we supposed to feel like it's cool to obsess over someone who's moved on? Or feel bad that they achieved both of their dreams, but the dude won't stick his which in another oil pot?
    Seriously, where does this toxic "obsession" come into play? If they were obsessed, they wouldn't have left each other at the end and accepted that it was too late to be together. You're supposed to feel sad about how they accomplished their dreams, but had to give up their relationship in the process. Which is meant to give a realistic depiction of when following your dreams, you meet struggles and can be forced to make compromises. Which follows in line with both Sebastian's description of jazz's aesthetic being in the conflict between instrumentalists and Emma's Audition song about how dreamers are admirable fools who chase their ambitions without regret despite the pain they endure rather than let pointless obligations out of fear and low self-esteem tie them down. I would think that you would get that if you're into series like One Piece, which advocates the exact same thing.

    About the only dudes who had their shit together at all were the 'antagonists'. The JK Simmons character running his bar/restaurant who fired the main dude after giving him multiple chances and an explicit warning, and the one musician friend who the male lead was an utter snob to, but was absolutely right about jazz needing to evolve, and found a lot of success with his band, so good for him.

    It doesn't change Simmons' being unfairly biased and inhibiting his pianist just because has an irrational jazz phobia. Yeah, Sebastian was akin to get fired. But it's understandable why he succumbed to his urge to play jazz, because nobody tolerates it as a dying art form.

    And the musician friend played by John Legend, Keith, SOUNDS like he's making a wise statement (which is why it's easy for Sebastian and even the audience to be seduced by it). But he really isn't, at all. It's actually quite insulting. His point about jazz being founded as something revolutionary and how it should push those boundaries to still stay relevant make complete sense. However, he then spouts BS about how only geezers listen to classic jazz and how you should conform to whatever the kids like just because that's what's mainstream. Unless you REALLY need the money, screw that mentality. Just because a classic art form isn't appreciated by the majority nowadays doesn't mean that you should feel compelled to opt it out of existence, as if it lacks any quality or value just because it's old. Do you know how many mediums of entertainment that type of ignorantly irrational logic can be unfairly applied to? Pretty much all of them. That's like saying authors like Miura, Araki, and Oda should pack it in with series like Berserk, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and One Piece because series like Attack on Titan and One-Punch Man are all the rage these days. Or how platformer video games or hand-drawn animated films are becoming shunned in favor of WRPGS/shooters and 3D CGI animation just because they don't garner as much financial success anymore.

    Finding merit in an antique art form does not mean you're halting progress or inhibiting art forms. Art can stand the test of time and maintain quality, it doesn't degrade just because of age unless it was flawed in the first place (since some things do age badly due to limitations and such). Unless you're trying to imply that jazz is inherently flawed since its conception, which is obviously ridiculous. Sebastian never tried to shove his opinions about jazz down anybody's throat as a way of saying someone's established preferences are wrong. If he did, then he would be out of line and his character journey should have been about becoming more open to newer forms of art. But it wasn't, didn't need too, and quite frankly shouldn't have been since that is very predictable and shallow.

    It's not about disparaging modern forms of music in a hipster fashion, but keeping art forms that still have value alive than being misappreciated just because it's not new or commercialized. The concert song that Sebastian and Keith played, while good, wasn't even jazz at all rather than contemporary R&B or something. Yes, you should take into account what people are getting into and give it the benefit of the doubt by trying it out. But that doesn't mean you should be subservient and compromise something that you still find artistic merit, in which it most likely still does. As an artist, you owe it to yourself to stay true to what appeals to you in a balance to knowing what appeals to others. Not one extreme over the other, or else you're bound to fail. And Sebastian still has the band in the end, so he still fortunately sees merit in what they can contribute.

    So what part of the thing was I supposed to find good?
    Pretty much everything. Besides maybe Mia's ex-boyfriend, he could've completely been cut out of the film or implemented with more of a presence earlier on. And I could understand if people don't get into the movie during the first third or so with how happy go lucky, lovey dovey it can get.


    Sorry, I know different strokes and whatnot and I don't mean to blow up on you specifically, I was just intending to rant about that movie eventually, and your comment reminded me to, haha.

    lol It's cool. But I'm really surprised that you're this cold towards the film. I mean, I can tolerate you not feeling the songs or maybe even one or two points about digital communication. But I really feel like you went all in with the bitterness when there wasn't any good reason for it.
    Last edited by Count Mario; January 27th, 2017 at 06:54 PM.

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Very much so. Plenty of the songs are still stuck in my head, and everybody I talk about the film with at least hums one or two songs after coming out of the theatre. A Lovely Night, Audition, and Epilogue still captivate me every time I listen.
    The most memorable stuff sounds like discount copa cabana to me or something. I walked out in the middle of the second number because I just couldn't stand the thing, haha.


    Not really remembering any times where they explicitly lied to each other. And no, the lack of digital communication wouldn't have helped alleviate the conflicts at all besides making their reveals a bit less shocking.
    I don't have it fresh in mind, but girl didn't say anything about the boyfriend, for starters, and they never seemed to tell each other their schedules, or feelings, or anything, until it became a problem and blew up. That is not a healthy relationship.

    Maybe that's because she was in a relationship with a guy she could care less about and vice-versa? They mention that the previous boyfriend is always fixated on his job and going off to places (which ironically matches how Sebastian's band tours got him to do the same, so that was probably a purposeful foreshadowing/parallel). He even accepts an international business call in the middle of the dinner lol. I admit that including her already having a boyfriend in the first place was wonky because I don't remember the film mentioning he existed in the first place beforehand. But it's understandable why the guy was forgettable. Not that this means it's justifiable for you to romantic partner in the dust like that, but it's clear there wasn't any legitimate spark there to begin with.
    She just left that dude in the middle of dinner without saying a word. That is a total dick move, I don't care how blah you feel about the dude. She was like 'bored now lawl gonna cheat on you'.


    They literally just had a huge argument the previous day. Of course they're not going to keep intimately talking to each other. It's because of that argument that Sebastian felt displaced enough to accept the photo shoot due to his mindset at the time thinking that Mia was wrong about him making a bad choice in committing to to a life he doesn't want that will compromise his dream. And even then, do you really think a cellular conversation where you say you might miss out on or be late to the event where your loved one's dream is either going to fly or die is really going to be handled with pure composure? For a photo shoot, of all things? At least he tried to make it to the play and apparently didn't think he would be that late. Considering the distance placed between them from the fight the previous day, it's completely logical for Sebastian to have the mindset of not wanting to talk, wanting to accept the photo shoot to sustain his insecurities about his tour gig after feeling he was insulted, and thinking that he could still make it on time for the play.
    Thanks for reminding me of the premise on that argument, too, which was idiotic. Girl doesn't care about the guy, only her vision of him, and if he deviates from that, even to support his own dream (playing with that band was a necessary step for him, regardless, unless the movie wants to make a point on how you shouldn't do hard unlikeable work to pursue your dreams, but there's a whole other argument). On the actual scene, ignoring that this woulda not been a problem if the dude just remembered he had a goddamn photoshoot that day, if he can't afford to be honest with the person he supposedly cares about, then he doesn't really care about that person. If he can't set aside a dumb argument and a photoshoot to be with a person he supposedly cares about, then he doesn't really care about that person.

    If I have to sum up their relationship in one statement it's that they don't care about each other, only their images of each other.


    Are you talking about the scene where Mia is with her husband? If so, I guess that was awkward. I didn't really pay attention to that besides seeing how it's an obvious parallel to the first coffee shop scene in the movie.
    I'm talking about when the dude shows up at her childhood home (no phonecalls or anything) to rally her to come back, and then waits for her to leave with him the next morning, but whoops, one minute too late, gotta jet, fuck your dreams. Use a cell phone, dude.


    A guy she could reasonably feel ambivalent towards. She was selfish, yes, but it was an understandable choice.
    Ending the relationship would be reasonable. But she didn't. She left the dude cold to bone a hot narcissist.


    The end of the film takes place at least FIVE YEARS later. I think it's pretty understandable that after splitting up to pursue their busy careers for that long, they might have not remained in contact. Not to mention that they used to be in a relationship, so contacting an ex randomly like that can reasonably be awkward.
    They left each other on amicable terms. You're telling me that in five years they never once decided to catch up? No 'congratulations on your debut!' or even a 'I'm going to be in town soon, we should catch up?' And the film wants us to believe they care about each other? But nah, guess since they aren't having sex, they aren't allowed to check in.


    Except that the relationship was forced to end because their jobs couldn't have them together. It's pretty understandable for Sebastian to suddenly have some feelings rise up when meeting someone who's practically his soul mate the first time out of the blue. It doesn't mean he's pathetic or will automatically give up everything just to be with her. There's nothing wrong with thinking about what could have been when you see your ex again. You make it sound like he suddenly cried on stage and then begged to Mia to get back with him again and abandon her family for his sake in front of her husband.
    The dude made the name of the club her suggestion. He's still playing the same grandpa jazz with the same stool he couldn't bear to get rid of in the first scene of the movie, in the club location that he was dead set on having because of its history, but he somehow gave up the point on the name. He's stuck on her, like he's stuck in the past on all other things.

    What really makes the scene creepy, though, is that it undermines their current happiness. Girl isn't allowed to move on. Girl being with a different man and having a child isn't a happy ending. A happy ending is pretending that their relationship wasn't awful.

    It was surprising, sure, but it still flowed fine. Mia and Sebastian saw each other again, and they got reminded of all the emotions they invested in their relationship and what it would have been like they had stayed with each other or if everything went perfectly enough for their relationship to have still worked out. The movie pretty clearly builds up the piano song that Sebastian plays, Epilogue, throughout the movie as being meaningful to the couple. It was hearing that which made Mia leave the date with her ex in the restaurant. Not to mention how the conflict that split them apart largely focused on Sebastian's love for jazz, which he successfully conveyed to Mia who originally didn't care for the genre. It was clearly established to mean a lot to them.


    Actually, I thought Mia was the one who had that what if flashback sequence. But seriously, how does thinking about a past relationship sentimentally mean Sebastian feels entitled to Mia? They broke up because of understandable mistakes and occupation difficulties, which were out of their control to some degree at least on Mia's part while Sebastian couldn't back out even after he may have started regretting it. And she didn't chew him out because she didn't like the music, you completely misunderstood the point of that argument. The point being that she could tell Sebastian was getting entangled in a job that he clearly didn't have passion for and went against what he loved about music, was going to obstruct his freedom for years, and prevent his initial dream of wanting a night club from potentially ever being fulfilled. She wasn't acting selfishly, she was taking an issue with it for HIS own benefit because she could tell he was becoming an insecure hypocrite. Especially after how he frequently inspired her to not burden yourself with what other people superficially think and to pursue something you're passionate about, which will in turn get attract people without having to give up your integrity.
    If it was Mia then that's even worse! Great to know that she married a dude without having fully moved on and that she's thinking of cheating on him even though they have a child. This would all be a sensical extension of her character, too, since she left the first boyfriend cold cause she got the hots for the same guy. And they play that beat!


    Seriously, where does this toxic "obsession" come into play? If they were obsessed, they wouldn't have left each other at the end and accepted that it was too late to be together. You're supposed to feel sad about how they accomplished their dreams, but had to give up their relationship in the process. Which is meant to give a realistic depiction of when following your dreams, you meet struggles and can be forced to make compromises. Which follows in line with both Sebastian's description of jazz's aesthetic being in the conflict between instrumentalists and Emma's Audition song about how dreamers are admirable fools who chase their ambitions without regret despite the pain they endure rather than let pointless obligations out of fear and low self-esteem tie them down. I would think that you would get that if you're into series like One Piece, which advocates the exact same thing.
    It comes into play based on how their characters work and act. Mostly the dude's inability to move on from a period of jazz, a failed business plan, and a dead relationship.

    Either way, it's hard to take the narrative on dreams seriously when it casts the dude in a bad light for compromising, and when the girl only succeeded by a ball's hair of a chance (which is admittedly how some of that stuff works, but it makes her arc pretty irrelevant).

    Also I can't buy that the dude had problems compromising and joining that one band when we saw him playing fucking keytar in an 80s pop cover band, haha.


    It doesn't change Simmons' being unfairly biased and inhibiting his pianist just because has an irrational jazz phobia. Yeah, Sebastian was akin to get fired. But it's understandable why he succumbed to his urge to play jazz, because nobody tolerates it as a dying art form.
    He's not unfairly biased, he's running a restaurant and hiring a person who he let go of before for similar issues. The dude caused a scene in the restaurant because he was a smug elitist who had to stick it to 'the man'.

    And the musician friend played by John Legend, Keith, SOUNDS like he's making a wise statement. But he really isn't, at all. His point about jazz being founded as something revolutionary and how it should push those boundaries to still stay relevant make complete sense. However, he then spouts BS about how only geezers listen to classic jazz and how you should conform to whatever the kids like just because that's what's mainstream. Unless you REALLY need the money, screw that mentality. Just because a classic art form isn't appreciated by the majority nowadays doesn't mean that you should feel compelled to opt it out of existence, as if it lacks any quality or value just because it's old. Do you know how many mediums of entertainment that type of ignorantly irrational logic can be unfairly applied to? Pretty much all of them. That's like saying authors like Miura, Araki, and Oda should pack it in with series like Berserk, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and One Piece because series like Attack on Titan and One-Punch man are all the rage these days.

    Yes, you should take into account what people are getting into and give it the benefit of the doubt by trying it out. But that doesn't mean you should be subservient and compromise something that you still find artistic merit, in which it most likely still does. As an artist, you owe it to yourself to stay true to what appeals to you in a balance to knowing what appeals to others. Not one extreme over the other, or else you're bound to fail. And Sebastian still has the band in the end, so he still fortunately sees merit in what they can contribute.
    I'm a huge fan of jazz and John Legend was spot on. It changes and needs to be open to change. The people who are stuck on older jazz are total elitist pricks just like main dude in the film. There are purists who think that Miles Davis ruined jazz, or that only New Orleans jazz is real jazz. Meanwhile, the actual musicians paved the way to the future by playing what they wanted to. Sometimes it meant becoming less accessible (free jazz and beyond), and sometimes it meant bringing things back and making them more appealing (cool jazz, which was less abrasive than bebop, or collaborating with other genres like rock or hip-hop). John Legend's character wouldn't be saying that dudes like Oda should stop, but be willing to evolve, and that anyone afterwards shouldn't be actively copying them and claiming that it can't get any better. The biggest and most influential jazz musicians didn't stay in one place, and neither did a lot of those mangaka (especially Araki, who continues to improve by leaving old concepts behind and adjusting his style with the times).

    Male lead's attitude is that those dudes shouldn't change, and that anything that's not like 60s jazz is utter shit. It's his attitude towards the pop music he was playing in the cover band, and any of the work John Legend was doing, and really to about all other music. This isn't an unfair read of his character, at all, that's just how he is, and his attitude is a lot worse than John Legend's. At least he had an open mind.


    lol It's cool. But I'm really surprised that you're this cold towards the film. I mean, I can tolerate you not feeling the songs or maybe even one or two points about digital communication. But I really feel like you went all in with the bitterness when there wasn't any good reason for it.
    I went in trying to like it because I really like musical, and think they deserve some more exploration (just look at the stuff Steven Universe does!), but I found myself wanting to be somewhere else maybe a half hour in at most? Definitely by the second musical number, though the first one was pretty bad, too.

    I think Moana was the better musical of the year, and it was mostly kinda bland. At least Moana had some really great musical numbers, though, incorporated in creative ways. "Shiny," especially, is a really inventive number for the genre that will probably be overlooked for the boring rehash of La La Land.

    I don't know if I can keep up the pace of discussion on this movie since it's been a few weeks now, and I largely only have my mental notes from the first watch to go on. My bottom line on it is that I felt a large disconnect between what I was seeing and what the movie wanted me to see, was bored by the music, and didn't think it did anything new or special. By coincidence I ended up watching Singing in the Rain tonight, and that movie has so much more creative energy, and charisma that you can't even compare the two. I could go on an make more points on composition, directing, acting, and use of songs, but writing about the movie's pushing my salt levels to a critical point.

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  15. #55
    Must've been rats Sakonosolo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans

    Pretty simple story and it seems kind of long even with only being 1.5 hours because of this. It's a nice story though. Gets pretty tense towards the end but I'm happy with the ending. Also the more I watch silent movies the more impressed I am at some things they were able to do back then, as well as the variety in looks of intertitles in some movies. The blended frame effects look pretty cool to me.

    Also I dislike the wife's hair style for most of the movie.

  16. #56
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    Spoiler:


    The most memorable stuff sounds like discount copa cabana to me or something. I walked out in the middle of the second number because I just couldn't stand the thing, haha.
    Spoiler:

    Really? I loved the second song.

    I don't have it fresh in mind, but girl didn't say anything about the boyfriend, for starters, and they never seemed to tell each other their schedules, or feelings, or anything, until it became a problem and blew up. That is not a healthy relationship.

    The date with the boyfriend thing happened before they got together, to be fair. And everything else after that when it came to Sebastian scheduling his band tours are understandably complex in planning for somebody not involved like Mia. Couples bring up unexpected plans related to work all of the time. Not every single couple is extremely diligent enough to tell their loved one every single thing that's going to happen with their job. There are times where you just trust them unless you're THAT high maintenance. This type of trust occurs all over fictional media and allows for spouses to keep dirty secrets for tons of drama potential. Your perception of relationships being constantly informed about everything is a bit unrealistic, to say the least. It's cool if that works for you, but it certainly doesn't for plenty of people who just don't have the interest to know intricate details or like being hounded.

    On the part about feelings, they talked plenty about their motivations in life and we got loss of visual montages of their time together and how they got attracted to each other. They don't need to spoon feed us verbal statements of how much they like each other when it's pretty obvious that they had chemistry earlier on. And on Sebastian's part with his insecurities, it's understandable why he kept his feelings a secret and tried to delude himself.


    She just left that dude in the middle of dinner without saying a word. That is a total dick move, I don't care how blah you feel about the dude. She was like 'bored now lawl gonna cheat on you'.
    It is a total dick move. I didn't mean to sound like I was justifying that action specifically, just that Mia's feelings up to that point were understandable and not completely unprovoked. But love is more complex than treating someone as being irredeemable just because they feel pressured to cheat. It's wrong and even distasteful, I get that. But it's not some sin that eternally dooms you. End of the day, you have to be honest with what your heart craves. It doesn't justify cheating, but it's unfortunately a real phenomenon. It's totally fine for you to not like Mia for doing that though, that's one solid criticism I can agree with. It should have had more complex execution then just having actions like that be showcased as purely justified moments of true love condoning inconsiderate behavior. But I can overlook it because better relationships can come from meeting other people while in a relationship. It's sad, but true. And all it tends to show is how fragile and likely non-existence the love in the first relationship was in the first place.


    Thanks for reminding me of the premise on that argument, too, which was idiotic. Girl doesn't care about the guy, only her vision of him, and if he deviates from that, even to support his own dream (playing with that band was a necessary step for him, regardless, unless the movie wants to make a point on how you shouldn't do hard unlikeable work to pursue your dreams, but there's a whole other argument). On the actual scene, ignoring that this woulda not been a problem if the dude just remembered he had a goddamn photoshoot that day, if he can't afford to be honest with the person he supposedly cares about, then he doesn't really care about that person. If he can't set aside a dumb argument and a photoshoot to be with a person he supposedly cares about, then he doesn't really care about that person.
    But the issue is that Sebastian playing with the band WASN'T helping him pursue his dreams. If anything, it was driving him further away from what he really wanted and placing him in a perpetual cycle of working and travel without any emotional payoff. He got cash, but was most likely going to give up his dream. He only accepted the job offer in the first place because of feeling insecure about his and Mia's future, and then gradually tried to convince himself that just having a sustainable job was worth losing why he accepted it in the first place.

    And she didn't just have this "vision" of him that popped out of nowhere, they literally talked to and inspired each other when it came talking about the passions and dreams. It's understandable to hold your partner accountable for something that meaningful, yet you're treating he expression of your life's passion like it's some insignificant delusion. It wasn't the fact that they had to do unlikable work, but it was unlikable work that kept getting them shunned and shifted around without any progress made. Sebastian kept getting ripped off and fired while Mia kept getting rejected for acting roles and had to monotonously work in a coffee shop. Unless a miracle happens, nothing changes unless they alter their game plan, which they motivate each other to do. Unfortunately for Sebastian specifically, he comprises his morals and sense of satisfaction out of fear. There is more to caring about someone than just being satisfied with them being able to put food on the table in and of itself. People have psychological needs too.

    And you're seriously going to blame Sebastian for forgetting he had a photo shoot? He's human and is going through rough times, and he JUST had a heavy argument the previous day where a dinner he planned out got completely ruined. And it's a photo shoot lol, do you really have to inform your significant other of every single little detail that happens in your job if you don't think it interferes with any big plans off the top of your head? People can forget when life gets hectic. Again, it's human. You're really exaggerating the severity of this when it's an event that lots of people could care less about, especially someone who doesn't truly feel passionate about their job like Sebastian.

    Yes, not being honest and thinking he could still get by was his fault. But you keep ignoring that the buildup to that makes sense in-character with the conflicts that are present. You're SUPPOSED to not like how he chose to have the photo shoot and get that he accepted it because of the relationship getting strained. And even then, Mia became aggravated only as Sebastian kept being a hypocrite about everything he said to inspire Mia earlier throughout the story by letting his fears of not being successful or liked get to him and make him think that he could be satisfied just by having a sustainable job. He was just disparaging himself with a delusion when it came to what he truly cared about and how willing he became to let it all go in favor of just making a living with no emotional/artistic profit for him. It's not even like Mia was willing to break up with him just because he wanted to keep the job, it was Sebastian's attitude and emotional vulnerabilities making the conversation volatile that caused her to walk out on him. It was about how they talked and regarded each other. Sebastian kept shoving words into Mia's mouth and accusing her of things. If you're going to criticize her, do it right since she was the one with the level head who could see that Sebastian wasn't really doing himself any real favors by trapping himself in a cycle of working. When you love someone, you care about their happiness and integrity. And when they make it seem like you're acting selfish and doubting their capabilities, it hurts. A lot. I just hope you don't decide to try spinning this into proclaiming how Sebastian's reasons for what he said are stupid. Because while they are, they make sense in-character and realistically as a character flaw.

    You have this flawed perspective of how every good relationship can continue to function normally if it hits major bumps where tensions rise and both sides feel significantly insulted. It doesn't mean they never truly valued each other. It's that one or both of them let their flaws get in the way of what truly matters in making their relationship work. It's how relationships that hold a lot of potential can understandably fall apart. Relationships are rarely executed perfectly from the start, which is how and why you learn. Their strength is tested in how they overcome ordeals, and some couples can immediately get over it while others take more time and can almost completely end. Yes, they should push their problems aside for the sake of how they care about each other, but that is MUCH easier said than done.

    Flaws make characters compelling as they and the plot's themes continue to develop. But you're criticizing flaws for... being flaws despite having built-up context for why they're present and making the characters vulnerable towards making mistakes. That doesn't make sense. Their relationship was supposed to be a faulty in a tragic way as their insecurities and/or dreams found ways of obstructing them. It happens all the time in real life, and characters experience downfalls to learn and find out what they should do if they really care about someone and themselves. Acting as if every person should know what to do from the start to have a healthy relationship is literally saying that you don't want there to be drama, or that you can't get emotionally invested in a relationship that struggles because the character involved make mistakes. Not every person is going to be invincible by not having words hurt them and propel them to make regretful actions. Relationships can go through rough times before both parties grow up. It's called character development. You get into stories likes this to see how characters learn how to do thing right and rise from their shortcomings. Stumbling doesn't mean you're hopeless. Just probably stupid at first, and that makes for engaging characterization in various forms lol.

    That was not a dumb argument. Sebastian said hurtful things he can never take back, and he felt like he was being devalued while being too prideful to admit his dissatisfaction. That was an interesting conflict that got explored and had big ramifications. You do not move past that overnight when hearing those things from someone you deeply care for, because it hurts all the more knowing such words came from their mouths. A couple texts or a phone call isn't going to do much to help things, and can be expected to not be the first thing you're willing to do in that situation if you're a relationship amateur. People can get emotional and commit mistakes they don't initially think could be harmful. It's life. You might as well critique any relationship on any level, romantic or not, that involves dramatic struggling and claim that because they didn't immediately know what the right choices were, they never cared about each other. Regardless of if they eventually made up or wish they could've changed the past. I've never read something so naive and prejudicial on the subject of romance.

    If I have to sum up their relationship in one statement it's that they don't care about each other, only their images of each other.
    And that is a very shallow way to interpret their on-screen relationship. Apparently, caring about the dreams and passions about your significant other is just having a superficial "image" of them. See someone you care about doing something that they are about to regret or are currently obviously suffering through? Or compromising something you know they care a lot about? Let them be. Trying to warn them means you're only concerned with "images" you have of them. Those insightful talks they had to learn about each other and what drives their creative passion and perspectives on life? Those are just falsehoods, nothing you should rely on. Instead, we should have generic lovey-dovey small talk that doesn't go anywhere and generically states what we already know without any profound insight.

    I'm talking about when the dude shows up at her childhood home (no phonecalls or anything) to rally her to come back, and then waits for her to leave with him the next morning, but whoops, one minute too late, gotta jet, fuck your dreams. Use a cell phone, dude.

    Do you really think she's going to accept calls from him after how she refused to talk to him when she thought the theater production fell apart? He needed to make a visual impression of how much he cared about her, so he drove all the way down there to surprise her. And not even for the sake of getting he rack, but telling her that her theater production did impress an acting firm. And he had no personal gain to get out of doing any of that since they pretty much broke up. That's love right there in its most raw, daring, and embarrassingly awkward fashion.

    And the previous night, Mia kept denying that she was good enough and kept trying to go on about how she should just conform to being a successful lawyer to play it safe in life rather than fulfill her passion for acting by succumbing to the painful experiences she's had with auditions and performing. When you take into account that and how the argument/break up was still the second-to-last moment they had together, yes, it's completely understandable why he almost left. Being able to text and call does not magically fix everything when there's more conflict going on than just not talking to each other. Also, what if he did text her and she just didn't have time to respond from rushing to get ready It would've had the exact same effect. Your phone critiques just feel like bloated nitpicks when the story still flows together comprehensively.


    Ending the relationship would be reasonable. But she didn't. She left the dude cold to bone a hot narcissist.
    A hot narcissist that actually pays attention to her, inspires her, wants to know about her, and is actually willing to spend substantial amounts of time with her while all the boyfriend cares about is work and traveling. Even during their own dates. Like you said, leaving for another guy in the middle of a date was a dick move regardless . I get not liking Mia for that moment. I would've preferred something less blatantly disrespectful too. It's distasteful, but it doesn't make her a completely rotten person that can't ever redeem herself.

    They left each other on amicable terms. You're telling me that in five years they never once decided to catch up? No 'congratulations on your debut!' or even a 'I'm going to be in town soon, we should catch up?' And the film wants us to believe they care about each other? But nah, guess since they aren't having sex, they aren't allowed to check in.

    Probably at first. But jobs and family can get in the way. It happens all of the time in real life when it comes to how friends can grow apart. Reconnecting can often be awkward and, believe it or not, can just not come to mind when visiting old areas. You're just forcing the characters act how you want them to act for the sake of it when there's no incentive to when the relationship over. This is nothing more than a nitpick. Just because they don't think about each other constantly, they can't care about each other? I thought you were having an issue with how the final scene apparently made them looked obsessed with each other? It's excusable to suspend disbelief when it comes to social media since that can often get in the way of potential in terms of suspense unless you decide to have your story take place in another decade for an excuse like Stranger Things on Netflix (it takes place in the 80's only for the sake of not having cell phones or the internet around). Life happens. There's no real need to question it so much outside of maybe joking about it.

    The dude made the name of the club her suggestion. He's still playing the same grandpa jazz with the same stool he couldn't bear to get rid of in the first scene of the movie, in the club location that he was dead set on having because of its history, but he somehow gave up the point on the name. He's stuck on her, like he's stuck in the past on all other things.

    Because a name holding sentimental value means that you have to be hopelessly obsessed with someone. C'mon, you're just prejudging Sebastian without acknowledging context. Breaking up with someone doesn't mean you can't value or take to heart any moments you had with each other. Your expectations for relationship ethics are getting overblown outside of the Mia ex-boyfriend date thing. Being a huge jazz geek doesn't mean you're obsessed with the past, as if caring about it is a bad thing. There's no reason to be so vindictive about being passionate about classic jazz as if to mean you obsess about everything with the past and completely ditch the future. That sounds rather offensive towards anybody who has a hobby and occupation related to something of antique value.

    What really makes the scene creepy, though, is that it undermines their current happiness. Girl isn't allowed to move on. Girl being with a different man and having a child isn't a happy ending. A happy ending is pretending that their relationship wasn't awful.
    Because a relationship not working out has to mean that every little bit of it was regretful and holds no merit. As if you can't ever still feel for your exes sometimes.

    It was a chance reunion out of the blue, it's okay to get sentimental when thinking about the past. It doesn't mean you have to undermine everything since then as not mattering. It's okay to think about what could have been and the delights you shared together. Looking back on the past does not mean everything that happened up until now is worthless. It's just giving value to what was it it was meaningful.

    If it was Mia then that's even worse! Great to know that she married a dude without having fully moved on and that she's thinking of cheating on him even though they have a child. This would all be a sensical extension of her character, too, since she left the first boyfriend cold cause she got the hots for the same guy. And they play that beat!
    I KNEW you would point that out when I was typing up my earlier reply lol. Just because you've moved onto another relationship doesn't mean you can't ever be reminded of feelings you used to have for somebody else, especially if you haven't seen them since reluctantly breaking up. Not every relationship is this unrealistic you seem to have where you have to dump every single thing emotionally and literally that's tied to any previous experiences. They're human, for pete's sake. Old feelings can reasonably resurface here and there.

    It comes into play based on how their characters work and act. Mostly the dude's inability to move on from a period of jazz, a failed business plan, and a dead relationship.

    So being passionate about a specific era of an art form and not favoring a contemporary style automatically equates to never being able to move on or adapt? Having old feelings resurface temporarily does not mean you're obsessed with a past relationship. It's understandable when you wish that it didn't have to be forced to abruptly end.

    It casted the guy in a bad light, not for compromising, but for succumbing to insecurities and eventually being willing to give up on a dream he still cares about but isn't willing to admit. Mia was the one who compromised in the end. Sebastian was going to give up. There's a clear difference.
    Either way, it's hard to take the narrative on dreams seriously when it casts the dude in a bad light for compromising, and when the girl only succeeded by a ball's hair of a chance (which is admittedly how some of that stuff works, but it makes her arc pretty irrelevant).
    Surprisingly succeeding does not make her arc pointless at all. She got the acting gig for being willing to stand out and not subjugate herself to being miraculously liked by random disrespectful interviewers. And even then, when it came to her audition, she had to make a convincing performance that would shape the role of her character based around her personality and ideals. She succeeded because she followed her individual passion by taking a chance rather than being bound to what other people think about her at first glance or already like. If she really didn't get an acting gig, then the message shifts from being an under-appreciated aspiring actress with ambitious talent that had to make her own rules to be truly recognized to being a naive amateur with a pipe dream who was always mediocre and only fooling herself. Your suggestion is what actually makes her arc irrelevant and actually credits the interviewers who dismissed her because she didn't look beautiful enough or interrupted her performances disrespectfully by justifying them in seeing Mia as a poor acting choice.

    Also I can't buy that the dude had problems compromising and joining that one band when we saw him playing fucking keytar in an 80s pop cover band, haha.
    Which he also visibly didn't like. Hence why he didn't want to play the cheesy cliche 80's song Mia wanted him to play and was embarrassed to admit that he was getting bossed around. If anything, that helps build up how he's vulnerable to taking jobs for cash that go against his preferences in music.

    He's not unfairly biased, he's running a restaurant and hiring a person who he let go of before for similar issues. The dude caused a scene in the restaurant because he was a smug elitist who had to stick it to 'the man'.
    Except that he didn't cause a scene in the restaurant. Literally NOTHING changed. You're probably confusing how the scene looks dramatized when he's playing despite how afterwards, the restaurant is completely normal. He just gets called by Simmons and fired because he doesn't like jazz and only wants to lower the standard of his employees to playing trite Christmas songs. Sebastian was asking to get fired after getting warned, sure. But Simmons' perspective on jazz in the first place was dumb.


    I'm a huge fan of jazz and John Legend was spot on. It changes and needs to be open to change. The people who are stuck on older jazz are total elitist pricks just like main dude in the film. There are purists who think that Miles Davis ruined jazz, or that only New Orleans jazz is real jazz. Meanwhile, the actual musicians paved the way to the future by playing what they wanted to. Sometimes it meant becoming less accessible (free jazz and beyond), and sometimes it meant bringing things back and making them more appealing (cool jazz, which was less abrasive than bebop, or collaborating with other genres like rock or hip-hop). John Legend's character wouldn't be saying that dudes like Oda should stop, but be willing to evolve, and that anyone afterwards shouldn't be actively copying them and claiming that it can't get any better. The biggest and most influential jazz musicians didn't stay in one place, and neither did a lot of those mangaka (especially Araki, who continues to improve by leaving old concepts behind and adjusting his style with the times).
    John Legend's character would have said that Oda should stop appealing to 90's young boys who liked classic shonen like Dragon Ball and should move onto more consistently edgy, dark content like Tokyo Ghoul. And that Luffy should get substantial character development that makes him drastically change from being a lot like Goku. He would have a freaking ball if he found out that Totland is the third Straw Hat rescue arc (not even counting Usopp leaving the crew) while ignoring the context and individual characterization merits of those arcs. There are plenty of flaws that can be pointed out with One Piece, but there also lots of people that diss it just for being an older, long series that doesn't change its story formula foundation that much. Araki was a bad example though, my fault.

    Just because jazz as a genre should change and adapt doesn't mean EVERY musician has to. Artists have preferences and should stay true to them if they hold a lot of solid meaning. And Sebastian gave that when he explained to Mia why he liked jazz and opened her up to liking it. It's not like I think John Legend's character is a bad guy at all or doesn't have a point in what he's saying. It is good to be open to newer things and understand why people like those aspects. But that doesn't make his statement about how you should feel compelled to ditch what you like in favor of what other people like for the sake of people liking you a good mentality to have unless all you really care about is the money and it's not detrimental to the rest of your life or aspirations. That is not the case with Sebastian, as we saw with the argument and how strained his relationship was becoming before then. If you hold art to a high degree and want personal satisfaction, you need to stay true to yourself and be open to hearing other people out. If you don't like what they say and can back it up, then that's okay.

    If they favor the classic form, they should engage in what they like. Simple as that. It's not like Sebastian wanted to become the next big music celebrity, he just wanted cash to support his night club and to play what he likes. He never even once actively dissed contemporary of forms of music by saying they're objectively bad, he just doesn't like modern art forms. It's a matter of preferences. Liking older jazz more than modern styles automatically means you're total elitist pricks? What? And EVEN then, just because people are progressively evolving a genre doesn't mean you have to do it in the same way. He liked jazz for a reason, and the new form that Keith's group liked to play did not have that. The main lead's attitudes aren't that the rest of the band shouldn't change, but that he doesn't want to change to something he doesn't care for. It's that simple.

    Male lead's attitude is that those dudes shouldn't change, and that anything that's not like 60s jazz is utter shit. It's his attitude towards the pop music he was playing in the cover band, and any of the work John Legend was doing, and really to about all other music. This isn't an unfair read of his character, at all, that's just how he is, and his attitude is a lot worse than John Legend's. At least he had an open mind.
    Because having an open mind means that you have to label favoring classic jazz as only appealing to old farts, and that everything you do artistically has to appeal to whatever the younger generation spontaneously likes for the sake of conforming. You only criticize one extreme of being nostalgia-obsessed, but don't acknowledge the other of thinking that you can only artistically value what the mainstream is into. You can totally argue that Sebastian was narrow-minded, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to find a job that allows him to play the music that he likes and that he can't reasonably have a preference.




    I went in trying to like it because I really like musical, and think they deserve some more exploration (just look at the stuff Steven Universe does!), but I found myself wanting to be somewhere else maybe a half hour in at most? Definitely by the second musical number, though the first one was pretty bad, too.
    Completely disagree. I loved every song. And I like Steven Universe songs as well lol.

    I think Moana was the better musical of the year, and it was mostly kinda bland. At least Moana had some really great musical numbers, though, incorporated in creative ways. "Shiny," especially, is a really inventive number for the genre that will probably be overlooked for the boring rehash of La La Land.
    Eh. I liked Moana's soundtrack, but it doesn't really stand out that much on its own. It's makes more of an impression when you hear the music along side the visuals for atmospheric flair. And with Shiny, I have a love/hate relationship with how it sounds deliciously intimidating and then acts bipolar by switching to glamorous David Bowie-style. I really would've preferred the song sticking to the former style or blending the two forms more effectively. Sporadically talking about shining brightly and cleaning ships can work as its own song, but it completely turned me off how from engrossed I was to finally hear a villain song since Mother Knows Best.

    I don't know if I can keep up the pace of discussion on this movie since it's been a few weeks now, and I largely only have my mental notes from the first watch to go on. My bottom line on it is that I felt a large disconnect between what I was seeing and what the movie wanted me to see, was bored by the music, and didn't think it did anything new or special. By coincidence I ended up watching Singing in the Rain tonight, and that movie has so much more creative energy, and charisma that you can't even compare the two. I could go on an make more points on composition, directing, acting, and use of songs, but writing about the movie's pushing my salt levels to a critical point.
    That's completely fine. We can agree to disagree. If you don't have your tools sharpened enough for a debate, then it's okay to not feel like it's worth engaging in. I've been there. If the movie's aggravating you that much, I'm more than game for not prolonging this discussion lol. Neither of us appear to really gain much from this since our opinions seem to be set in stone.

    ...Still nominating La La Land for the AP Awards though.
    Last edited by Count Mario; January 28th, 2017 at 08:05 AM.

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  17. #57
    Aspiring Film Critic TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Yeah so I watched La La Land too and I'm pretty in agreement with Wagomu on it.

    I get why people are enamored about it, there's an infectiousness to it that brings out your inner sap and just wants to make you turn your brain off and get into this wacky world of musical cliches and I don't mean that as a detriment. Which is weird then when the movie is punctuated with a lot of realistic, grounded scenes that just doesn't gel whenever the movie gets into a song number or a weird, whimsical 1950s scene. It's clearly a love letter to those classic musicals like Singing in the Rain but it doesn't really commit to a tone making it really weird and off-putting. Like these are real people acting out cartoonish plays.

    In terms of visuals, it is pretty excellent and you won't hear me say a negative thing about it, I thought the cinematography and editing was excellent in terms of technical competency and artistic merit and how effective it was in sucking me into the world....or would have been if not of all the problems I had with the movie. It does not help at all that even then the visuals felt they were trying too hard to be cute and whimsical and Hollywood at times.

    The biggest problem I have with the movie is without a doubt the script which really brought the whole movie down for me. I just....did not care for the protagonists or their relationship. I thought they were acted well but how they and their relationship was written just felt hollow to me. We're supposed to love them because of all the wacky jazz hijinks they get into, all the fun and clever editing and film-making that makes their relationship look so fun but I never felt there was any real emotional depth or pathos to their relationship. The thing that triggers their becoming a couple wasn't really talking or getting to know each other, it was a wacky tap dancing session and I'm sitting here thinking, what am I supposed to take from this? Are they literally tap dancing or is this like a visual metaphor for them actually talking and getting to know each other? Can I just have those talks instead? I feel like a lot of their relationship does not have nearly enough of them just sitting down and talking like people and connecting on a deeper level. Like we never really learn much about them outside their superficial ambitions, they're entirely defined by their love of their own careers and nothing else. It felt more the movie was fellating classic Hollywood musicals than giving me a story about two human beings. I know I was supposed to cheer and celebrate when she dumped her narcissistic boyfriend to run off to Gosling at the movie theater but the whole scene felt so forced and cliche and unrealistic. Like why did she not contact Gosling to tell him she wouldn't be able to come, was she really going to ditch him at the movie theater? So she's totally fine dumping her old boyfriend, that's not a petulant thing at all. And I don't wanna hear about emotional nuance of sometimes people need to follow their heart and bla bla bla, the movie framed her boyfriend as a one dimensional cartoon who we're supposed to cheer that he was being dumped because he looked snobbish and dicky (even though we knew nothing about him, he looked like an asshole dammit) and we get this operatic like music and visuals as she's running to Ryan Gosling and not supposed to think at all that she was behaving like a child who does whatever she feels like on a whim instead of handling her relationships in an adult manner.

    And I know, I'm not supposed to think about it, I'm supposed to be sucked in and cheer and get into the language of the visuals but I just couldn't, mostly because of the hitherto tonal inconsistencies I've mentioned where I did not feel this world knew what it wanted to be. Like go full cartoon if you want me to get sucked into a cartoonish relationship.

    And that's not getting into the fact that I found Ryan Gosling's character to be a deeply unlikable elitist prick. "Jazz is dying man and I'm the only one who can save it, me a skinny L.A. white boy and my one shitty club." The guy he was talking too was completely right, Jazz like anything else is an evolving art form and being stuck in the past is doing it no favors. "But it's his dream, he's not saying Jazz has to conform to his vision, it's what he wants!" yeah sorry no, that argument doesn't fly when we have a good new age Jazz song playing and Emma Stone looks at it in near horror (not that I related to her at all given I didn't buy her newly found respect for Jazz at all given how barely it was explored or developed) like Ryan Gosling is committing a sin by playing it, the way that scene was shot was pretty blatantly trying to make a Ryan Gosling has "sold out to the man" point (which is pretty hilarious given she met him playing for a shitty 80s band) which again removes any sort of emotional nuance you might want to argue for. It's very blatant, this is bad, shame on you Gosling, fuck compromise. And then they get into a fight about it and all I can think is....did you guys never talk about this AT ALL before this point? It's very hard to get into this relationship because it feels like they never actually fucking talk about important matters that affect them except when its dramatically convenient to the plot. It's like pick up a goddamn phone, half your problems could be managed with acting like normal, adult human beings who put things like scheduling with your intimate other in consideration. And how about you talk about things not related to music or acting like the weather or your family or sports or something. It does not feel to me they care about each other as people but their romantic ideal visions of them instead. If they truly cared, if this were a truly adult relationship, they would try and compromise and work together as real life problems bring their dreams to a crashing halt and try and reach some sort of compromise instead of getting shallow speeches of "How dare you give up! Never give up, you need to go for your dream 100% or you're nothing but a hopeless sellout!" And maybe I'm a cynic but I'm sick of all these movies that go for pure idealism without any sort of perspective or sensibility. How much more powerful would it have been if Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling accepted that life is about compromise and sometimes you just need to settle and reevaluate your life? But nah, that's not flashy or Hollywood enough, it's much more romantic and dramatic for them to have their dreams accomplished at the sacrifice of them staying together, realism be goddamned. Ryan Gosling just happened to have the one contact that got Emma Stone her big break, Emma Stone's speech just happened to be all Ryan Gosling needed to somehow get the capital needed to start his club and make it a success! Dreams do come true!

    Ultimately I feel a person's enjoyment for this movie comes down to how much a person can turn his or her brain off and get sucked into this wacky musical world. And I'm not averse to turning off the brain, I'm a huge Marvel fanboy despite my awareness of the flaws those movies have but for me they do a consistent job in writing three dimensional characters who belong in these worlds. This movie failed for me in being consistent in its tone or in giving us characters who, if not deep, at least were fun and had good chemistry and who felt like they had an emotional connection that ran deeper than their ideological visions of each other. It just felt like a movie that tried to have its cake and eat it too, tried to be a wacky love letter while also balancing a deep adult romance and it underwhelmed me in both aspects. I just found this to be a very superficial movie and any reads of these characters being more than what they are on the surface will just fall on deaf ears for me. These two people are nothing but cardboard to me.

    In terms of entertaining musicals, I found Chicago to be waaay better. All the characters in that movie were assholes but the movie was aware of it and reveled in it (though it did have a bit of a copout ending) and I thought the movie's satire on the media and showmanship to be more insightful and entertaining than this bleh "follow your dreams because dreams are important" tripe. The music there was also more memorable and creative and each musical number felt distinct in style and subject matter. I just watched the movie and I can't remember a single song in terms of sound or visuals (Well except the traffic one and that bit when Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling walk into the sky purely for the randomness of it) because it all blended together into this generic mess of bleh.

    I didn't like this movie though I didn't hate it much either, I'm just very, very indifferent to this movie. The most I was ever emotionally invested were the two scenes that J.K. Simmons had. On a side note, fuck this movie for only putting J.K. Simmons in two scenes, he was amazing in them.
    Last edited by TLC; January 28th, 2017 at 10:10 AM.
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  18. #58
    Acting the Goat Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    I don't want to go through all of this, just a couple of things I feel the need to address:

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    But the issue is that Sebastian playing with the band WASN'T helping him pursue his dreams. If anything, it was driving him further away from what he really wanted and placing him in a perpetual cycle of working and travel without any emotional payoff. He got cash, but was most likely going to give up his dream. He only accepted the job offer in the first place because of feeling insecure about his and Mia's future, and then gradually tried to convince himself that just having a sustainable job was worth losing why he accepted it in the first place.
    But it was. That's the only way he's implied to have gotten the money to open his bar. They never implied that he left or did something else, just that the gig paid him a lot of money that he was planning on using for the bar, and then he opened the bar. This is largely written as a bad thing, except that he has a bar in the end.

    You have this flawed perspective of how every good relationship can continue to function normally if it hits major bumps where tensions rise and both sides feel significantly insulted. It doesn't mean they never truly valued each other. It's that one or both of them let their flaws get in the way of what truly matters in making their relationship work. It's how relationships that hold a lot of potential can understandably fall apart. Relationships are rarely executed perfectly from the start, which is how and why you learn. Their strength is tested in how they overcome ordeals, and some couples can immediately get over it while others take more time and can almost completely end. Yes, they should push their problems aside for the sake of how they care about each other, but that is MUCH easier said than done.
    It's more like the specific flaws of these characters and the portrayal of their relationship gives me no reason to believe they actually care for each other. Real relationships are flawed, I get it, but when the movie's trying to cast this in a glamorous light, I'm gonna call bullshit. Like they had something that wasn't just exchanging shallow praise and bodily fluids. The only things that keep it going are the dude's self-importance, and the girl's low self-esteem.

    Do you really think she's going to accept calls from him after how she refused to talk to him when she thought the theater production fell apart? He needed to make a visual impression of how much he cared about her, so he drove all the way down there to surprise her. And not even for the sake of getting he rack, but telling her that her theater production did impress an acting firm. And he had no personal gain to get out of doing any of that since they pretty much broke up. That's love right there in its most raw, daring, and embarrassingly awkward fashion.

    And the previous night, Mia kept denying that she was good enough and kept trying to go on about how she should just conform to being a successful lawyer to play it safe in life rather than fulfill her passion for acting by succumbing to the painful experiences she's had with auditions and performing. When you take into account that and how the argument/break up was still the second-to-last moment they had together, yes, it's completely understandable why he almost left. Being able to text and call does not magically fix everything when there's more conflict going on than just not talking to each other. Also, what if he did text her and she just didn't have time to respond from rushing to get ready It would've had the exact same effect. Your phone critiques just feel like bloated nitpicks when the story still flows together comprehensively.

    So this guy cares so much about getting the girl out of her funk that he'll drive over to her childhood home and intrude on their home, but sending a text message like 'are you coming? last chance' is too awkward, smell ya later.

    I KNEW you would point that out when I was typing up my earlier reply lol. Just because you've moved onto another relationship doesn't mean you can't ever be reminded of feelings you used to have for somebody else, especially if you haven't seen them since reluctantly breaking up. Not every relationship is this unrealistic you seem to have where you have to dump every single thing emotionally and literally that's tied to any previous experiences. They're human, for pete's sake. Old feelings can reasonably resurface here and there.
    It'd be one thing if this wasn't where the movie ends, on a melancholy beat despite the fact that by all other metrics girl character is happy. She has a successful career and a family, but the last glimpse we get about her is longing for a boring adolescent relationship. How am I supposed to not hate that character? She got everything she could ever want and acts like it's worth shit. Maybe it would be different if it were more competently directed and we saw her being happy with her new life, but if comes off as her just sorta shrugging off everything she worked for.

    As a whole, her opportunity and the loss of her relationship come at the very end with no buildup. By the grace of god she lands a big role and becomes successful, everything she ever wanted and struggled for, then flash forward to the future and she isn't even that thrilled about her life. The storytelling and direction is just so weird.


    Surprisingly succeeding does not make her arc pointless at all. She got the acting gig for being willing to stand out and not subjugate herself to being miraculously liked by random disrespectful interviewers. And even then, when it came to her audition, she had to make a convincing performance that would shape the role of her character based around her personality and ideals. She succeeded because she followed her individual passion by taking a chance rather than being bound to what other people think about her at first glance or already like. If she really didn't get an acting gig, then the message shifts from being an under-appreciated aspiring actress with ambitious talent that had to make her own rules to be truly recognized to being a naive amateur with a pipe dream who was always mediocre and only fooling herself. Your suggestion is what actually makes her arc irrelevant and actually credits the interviewers who dismissed her because she didn't look beautiful enough or interrupted her performances disrespectfully by justifying them in seeing Mia as a poor acting choice.


    Wut. You act like her getting noticed for her play was less on a whim than her auditions. It just so happened that a scout saw her play and didn't vomit, and it just so happened that they were auditioning a part in a non-conventional way that worked for her. She would have found that eventually through auditions, since not every audition is run by assholes who judge only on line reading. It woulda felt right if she learned to commit to her auditions, or if she committed to writing, but she sorta just ends up back on the first track after switching trajectory. Not that this stuff doesn't happen, it just doesn't make for a compelling arc.

    Except that he didn't cause a scene in the restaurant. Literally NOTHING changed. You're probably confusing how the scene looks dramatized when he's playing despite how afterwards, the restaurant is completely normal. He just gets called by Simmons and fired because he doesn't like jazz and only wants to lower the standard of his employees to playing trite Christmas songs. Sebastian was asking to get fired after getting warned, sure. But Simmons' perspective on jazz in the first place was dumb.
    We don't know Simmons' perspective on jazz, just his perspective on his business. He isn't running a jazz club. Like what if you hired a birthday clown for your kid, and the person you hired comes over without makeup and starts putting on a one man production of Hamlet. The quality of Hamlet isn't the problem.

    John Legend's character would have said that Oda should stop appealing to 90's young boys who liked classic shonen like Dragon Ball and should move onto more consistently edgy, dark content like Tokyo Ghoul. And that Luffy should get substantial character development that makes him drastically change from being a lot like Goku. He would have a freaking ball if he found out that Totland is the third Straw Hat rescue arc (not even counting Usopp leaving the crew) while ignoring the context and individual characterization merits of those arcs. There are plenty of flaws that can be pointed out with One Piece, but there also lots of people that diss it just for being an older, long series that doesn't change its story formula foundation that much. Araki was a bad example though, my fault.

    Just because jazz as a genre should change and adapt doesn't mean EVERY musician has to. Artists have preferences and should stay true to them if they hold a lot of solid meaning. And Sebastian gave that when he explained to Mia why he liked jazz and opened her up to liking it. It's not like I think John Legend's character is a bad guy at all or doesn't have a point in what he's saying. It is good to be open to newer things and understand why people like those aspects. But that doesn't make his statement about how you should feel compelled to ditch what you like in favor of what other people like for the sake of people liking you a good mentality to have unless all you really care about is the money and it's not detrimental to the rest of your life or aspirations. That is not the case with Sebastian, as we saw with the argument and how strained his relationship was becoming before then. If you hold art to a high degree and want personal satisfaction, you need to stay true to yourself and be open to hearing other people out. If you don't like what they say and can back it up, then that's okay.

    If they favor the classic form, they should engage in what they like. Simple as that. It's not like Sebastian wanted to become the next big music celebrity, he just wanted cash to support his night club and to play what he likes. He never even once actively dissed contemporary of forms of music by saying they're objectively bad, he just doesn't like modern art forms. It's a matter of preferences. Liking older jazz more than modern styles automatically means you're total elitist pricks? What? And EVEN then, just because people are progressively evolving a genre doesn't mean you have to do it in the same way. He liked jazz for a reason, and the new form that Keith's group liked to play did not have that. The main lead's attitudes aren't that the rest of the band shouldn't change, but that he doesn't want to change to something he doesn't care for. It's that simple.

    Because having an open mind means that you have to label favoring classic jazz as only appealing to old farts, and that everything you do artistically has to appeal to whatever the younger generation spontaneously likes for the sake of conforming. You only criticize one extreme of being nostalgia-obsessed, but don't acknowledge the other of thinking that you can only artistically value what the mainstream is into. You can totally argue that Sebastian was narrow-minded, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to find a job that allows him to play the music that he likes and that he can't reasonably have a preference.


    This is mostly what I wanted to address because it's just so utterly wrong. John Legend never says 'fuck Louis Armstrong, he's old,' just believes in not playing the old stuff and moving the genre forward. The argument between this narrative and the regressive stance dude character takes is a pretty well-documented phenomena in jazz. Dude character takes the place of Wynton Marsalis, a conservative who views a certain era of jazz as a classical music, and any deviation as a blasphemy (check dude character's regards for pop music or John Legend and you can see that shared disgust). John Legend plays the role of Miles Davis, a musician who believes that the core value of the music is in progressivism, and who pushes it forward by staying open-minded about the directions in which it can be taken (Miles' later work included embracing hip hop and electronica in his sound). Also remember that in this exchange it's John Legend extending a job offer to the dude character, who's treating John Legend like a dick, calling him names behind his back, and gets his girlfriend to hate him. John Legend's putting up with dude character's crap because despite all of it he recognizes him as a good musician and that's what's important. Dude character flips a shit at the guy and almost completely turns him down because he's not troo jazz.

    The reason I brought up the Davis and Marsalis interaction is because in comparison, Davis was more rude to Marsalis than John Legend was to dudeguy. Dudeguy wasn't much better than Marsalis (who similarly went around parading his rhetoric and taking potshots at newer jazz musicians he didn't like), but Davis never would have invited Marsalis to play with him (the reason these two are mentioned together is because of a famous incident where Davis refused to let Marsalis play with his band), while John Legend actively offered dude character a spot and a chance. That's why I resent the movie acting like I'm supposed to side with the dude character at all, or hate John Legend. The way they frame that relationship is really weird, like John Legend is the asshole for having a vision for his music, and letting the main guy be a part of it despite their grievances.


    Eh. I liked Moana's soundtrack, but it doesn't really stand out that much on its own. It's makes more of an impression when you hear the music along side the visuals for atmospheric flair. And with Shiny, I have a love/hate relationship with how it sounds deliciously intimidating and then acts bipolar by switching to glamorous David Bowie-style. I really would've preferred the song sticking to the former style or blending the two forms more effectively. Sporadically talking about shining brightly and cleaning ships can work as its own song, but it completely turned me off how from engrossed I was to finally hear a villain song since Mother Knows Best.
    Love it or hate it, "Shiny" is an incredibly inventive musical scene. I don't think I've ever seen such a moment in a musical, with an upbeat track where the villain sings about how great they are while beating down the good guys. It does wonders for characterizing a minor villain and it's the part that I still think about to this day. Tamatoa doesn't see himself as a villain, and he doesn't even hold much of a grudge against Maui (even goes out of the way to compliment the guy on his sweet tats). He's just a greedy and vain bastard who loves himself so much that even at his most menacing he's still just a happy little fab crab. Imagine Stronger Than You in SU, but if it was Jasper singing about how much she loves fighting? It's just so playful, unique, and unexpected that even though I feel weird about a minor villain getting a song and not the big bad, I can't hate it. Plus the way the song ebbs and flows with the scene was a fun way of using it.

    I don't see any sort of inventiveness like that in La La Land. Its first number is the most playful where they do the Bollywood style 'everyone is singing' thing, but then they never really do that again, and even that scene comes in confusingly, sets up nothing, and even, according to an interview with the director, was on the chopping block and left in on a whim.

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  19. #59

    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    For what it's worth, I just saw La La Land and I liked it. I didn't love it and I certainly didn't hate it, but yeah, I liked it.

    Spoiler:
    I guess I can see where Wagomu and TLC are coming from with the Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone characters and how they made some dumb decisions, but they didn't really bother me. I personally didn't think we were supposed to see them as noble characters. They were flawed characters who made mistakes while just trying to make it big in LA. Like in the JK Simmons scene, I didn't get the sense we were supposed to hate him, it's just that Ryan Gosling couldn't play the music he was asked to since he wasn't being true to himself and it wasn't a good fit.

    My biggest problem with the movie though was the tone. While I enjoyed the story and musical numbers by themselves, I'm not sure that they meshed well together. It kind of felt like two different movies fighting for control.

  20. #60
    Whirlwind of Cabbages Yobiyopi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the last movie you watched.

    Brooklyn is one of the moviest movies in recent years, and is beautifully directed with a decent narrative that despite a couple of convenient elements for the plot, it leaves you satisfied. I would have just changed the title because it kinda gives away how certain things will go

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