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Thread: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

  1. #901

    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    You feel that "letting people do as they please is not right from a moral perspective"
    And you think that is never the case? Why?
    I'm trying to make you consider the whole comment, which explains the sentence you picked out.


  2. #902
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptayn View Post
    The mind isn't an empire in an empty shell: our identity is composed of both the spirit and the body, that, rather than being two distinct entities, interact and give birth to "I", this certainty that we call consciousness.
    When I'm anxious, I can feel it in my stomach; when I'm scared, my body shakes. Meditating is a source of physical relief; running or exercising, of mental relief. If the mind and the body were separate, this wouldn't be possible.
    Perhaps this is controversial and above all wrong, but I think that the need for one to swap genders is the symptom of a mental issue that would require therapy more than surgery. From this stems the feeling that letting people do as they please isn't right, from a moral perspective. There are limits to what one can do to his own body, and it would be good to have an actual conversation about them. Thing is, many of us now have the conviction that each individual has every right to dispose of himself as he wishes, as long as it doesn't harm/impact anyone else. Questioning that belief often appears as a will to oppress, discriminate, categorize (and at times rightfully so: I have this idiot Ben Shapiro in mind, whose whole motive is to hurt peoples' feelings and fuel other's hatred).

    I hope this doesn't come through as mean. It's not intended to. I'm trying to understand what is right, and this thread is an opportunity to do just that.
    If the mind and body are intertwined, and you're experiencing metal distress, then by your own logic isn't changing the body a solution?

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  3. #903
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    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptayn View Post
    The mind isn't an empire in an empty shell: our identity is composed of both the spirit and the body, that, rather than being two distinct entities, interact and give birth to "I", this certainty that we call consciousness.
    When I'm anxious, I can feel it in my stomach; when I'm scared, my body shakes. Meditating is a source of physical relief; running or exercising, of mental relief. If the mind and the body were separate, this wouldn't be possible.
    Perhaps this is controversial and above all wrong, but I think that the need for one to swap genders is the symptom of a mental issue that would require therapy more than surgery. From this stems the feeling that letting people do as they please isn't right, from a moral perspective. There are limits to what one can do to his own body, and it would be good to have an actual conversation about them. Thing is, many of us now have the conviction that each individual has every right to dispose of himself as he wishes, as long as it doesn't harm/impact anyone else. Questioning that belief often appears as a will to oppress, discriminate, categorize (and at times rightfully so: I have this idiot Ben Shapiro in mind, whose whole motive is to hurt peoples' feelings and fuel other's hatred).

    I hope this doesn't come through as mean. It's not intended to. I'm trying to understand what is right, and this thread is an opportunity to do just that.
    Thing is, a lot of trans people do go to therapy. I'm one of them, heck, I saw my psychiatrist today and will visit her in two weeks. I started seeing her years before I found out I'm trans, and I still continue seeing her for my own good.

    It is true that mind and body are not two entirely separate entities, however I do feel that there can be incongruence between the two, for example gender dysphoria.
    In such cases, countless individual cases has shown us that making changes to the body was not only more realistic, but yielded better and more consistent results. Changing the mind or soul is practically impossible and I'd argue trying so causes immense harm, think conversion therapy.

    While research on what makes a person transgender is still in its infancy with countless question left unanswered, there are theories which state that it's not so much a "mind vs. body" issue, but a "brain vs. rest of the body" one. This means that while my brain is more than likely to be wired for a male body, I was born with a female one. This all is extremely simplified, party because I'm not a scientist myself and partly because there's still a need for more research in his area.

    However, even if science still lacks definitive answers, we can look through the life stories or numerous transgender individuals from all across the world and sometimes in history as well. The majority of times, going through transition (which can be social and surgical) is shown to benefit the individual greatly. They become happier, more confident, more like themselves and overall a more healthy part of society. A healthy (in mind and body) and happy person is better for everyone. It is true however that underlying mental health issues, such as depression, anxiety etc. should not be overlooked and must be managed however a professional and the individual in question see fit. Throughout my transition, I not only worked on "becoming a man" but also becoming a better and healthier person. I spent time understanding what benefits and disadvantages I can get from taking testosterone simultaneously to working on my relationship with my other people. While I researched top surgery, I also made an effort to battle my anxiety concerning university. I became much more outgoing and willing to take risks in order to meet new people, I started meditating and working out, drinking water and eating a full, healthy diet.

    What I'm trying to say with all this, it's easy to think that trans people expect transition to solve all their problems, and while there are some who might mistakenly think that, I do believe the majority of us understand that it is only one of the many steps we all have to take in order to live fulfilling and joyful lives.

    Now you might ask what would've happened if I hadn't gone through transition but everything else stayed the same. Before my transition, I was already working on myself so to speak. I had just came out of a long tunnel of multiple years of depression and began rebuilding my life and taking time to discover who I really was and what my values were. Throughout this search I found my truth, which is that I'm a transman. It was like finally finding a string in a dimly lit forest and following it, step by step, carefully examining where it took me. It didn't start out as "hey, you're a dude, follow the trail ahead". It just dawned on me one day.

    The truth is, I feel happier and infinitely better than I did before I started transitioning. I'm able to confidently face my fears and battle my anxiety, the problems life chuck in my way seem so much less daunting and unsolvable.

    If you have the time, I really recommend reading a book on transpeople, just to get the overall picture. The Transgender Guidebook is mainly written to transpeople, but it offers a comprehensive and beginner-friendly look inside this phenomenon. The author is a mental professional and therapist who worked with countless transgender patients. While I'm severely lacking in knowledge on good resources on transwomen (the book mentioned above is for "both sides"), for a transmasculine perspective I can recommend reading Jamison Green's Becoming a Visible Man. The writer itself is a transman, who is also an advocate and a speaker.

    Some more information available on the internet:
    https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender


  4. #904
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    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptayn View Post
    The mind isn't an empire in an empty shell: our identity is composed of both the spirit and the body, that, rather than being two distinct entities, interact and give birth to "I", this certainty that we call consciousness.
    I already read your post, but breaking it piece by piece to talk about the different points you were saying. With the spirit/soul and body. They are one yes, but at the same time they can look like two different things. In the example of a transgender male to female, their spirit/soul is female, but their body does not match up with the spirit, producing a disconnect between the two causing distress. This distress is called gender dysphoria.

    When I'm anxious, I can feel it in my stomach; when I'm scared, my body shakes. Meditating is a source of physical relief; running or exercising, of mental relief. If the mind and the body were separate, this wouldn't be possible.
    And in the example of the transgender person that changed genders from male to female. The source of mental relief is in fact changing or swapping your gender to the opposite one. The mind works with the body, and the body works with the mind. There is distress if the two don't line up, so by transitioning and doing the proper surgeries and medication, it helps give relief to the person in question.

    Perhaps this is controversial and above all wrong, but I think that the need for one to swap genders is the symptom of a mental issue that would require therapy more than surgery.
    You see a mental illness brings distress. Getting surgery to change what's wrong for you can actually be the cure. In the case of transsexuals, the "mental illness" is the gender dysphoria, and to fix it is to accept that you are not this gender, but the opposite one. Hence the surgery, etc. By transitioning successfully to the correct gender brings mental relief like what you mentioned earlier.

    Here I put in an example of one that you can understand better. Let's talk about you, if someone kept calling you the wrong pronouns, and treated you like someone you are not, will most likely produce distress because it's hurting you. Or if they refuse to call you something, even though that's your name. If it is keep on repeating over and over again, it can cause much distress on your mind. The solution is to cut off the person, or tell them how you feel, so it can be changed. It sometimes can be damaging if let's say it was a family member, and you were a child.

    Another example is people are born with an arm. Sure they can "accept" but at the same time, they will have relief when they get a prosthetic. It's similar to how a transgender male to female individual can fix their penis, and change it to a vagina. A more common example is being overweight, the solution to that can be surgery, exercise, etc. But you are still modifying your body to fit your needs.

    From this stems the feeling that letting people do as they please isn't right, from a moral perspective. There are limits to what one can do to his own body, and it would be good to have an actual conversation about them.
    Well, as long as no one gets hurts, you can do as you please. Why does it matter how one proceeds themselves in life when in fact it does not cause them distress? We modify our body is many different ways to fit who we are. Like getting a tattoo, piercings, etc. Also, in the case of not seeing well, getting glasses. It's the same with changing one's gender. The acceptance part is in fact accepting that you are trans, and you need to change.

    Thing is, many of us now have the conviction that each individual has every right to dispose of himself as he wishes, as long as it doesn't harm/impact anyone else. Questioning that belief often appears as a will to oppress, discriminate, categorize
    And this is the point I'm referring to. A transgender person is not harming themselves while they are transitioning, but it fact it helps them have mental relief. What does impacts them is gender dysphoria. That causes distress within themselves, and other people can bring harm to them if they don't respect them. The cure? To get the proper surgeries, and focus on being the true you, which then brings relief to the person. This relief does not harm the person, not at all.
    Last edited by Stranger; July 12th, 2019 at 03:34 PM.

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  5. #905
    Trying Too Hard Below Average's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptayn View Post
    ....
    You are correct insofar as the mind and body are not two entirely separate entities that just happen to be stuck together. However, a lot of your musings are coming from the perspective that "transgenderism" is a mental illness. This is untrue. Being trans (in any capacity) isn't an illness. An illness would be something you'd want to cure or suppress. You don't suppress being trans. Attempts to suppress one's trans...ness have historically been dangerous, malicious, and harmful. Gender dysphoria is an illness. A common alleviation for said gender dysphoria is transitioning. Tends to work.

    On to another point, many trans people do go to therapy. In certain places said therapy is a requirement before undergoing hormone replacement. There is no catch all for what will work though. Some people transition. Some people don't. Individualism and all that jazz. It also goes back to my earlier mention of that dangerous, malicious, and harmful suppression. There's not quite understanding the trans community and then there's telling people what they can and can't do with their bodies. I am vehemently opposed to the latter.

    Side note, your use of strictly male pronouns and phrases such as "swap genders" is a touch disconcerting.

    And we do agree on Shapiro being a bully who thinks you win arguments by shouting over whomever you're talking with until they get fed up and leave.
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  6. #906
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    Default Re: Talk LGBT Issues And Be F*king Nice About It

    Quote Originally Posted by Below Average View Post
    And we do agree on Shapiro being a bully who thinks you win arguments by shouting over whomever you're talking with until they get fed up and leave.
    It's kind of hard to deny that when the man himself did a presentation on "debating tips" which included immediately accusing the opposing side of being bad people, not letting them speak, and just in general describing his own process as "destroying" the opposing side rather than having an intellectually honest discussion with them.

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