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Thread: Chapter 852: The Germa Failure

  1. #401
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 852: The Germa Failure

    @countMario


    Spoiler:


    Of course the kid isn't going to die. But that doesn't mean he can't "stay" dead for a while and that characters won't think such. And just because it's an issue that the kingdom has survived through thus far doesn't mean it's something they would appreciate getting fixed. It is incredibly naive you to wave away the destruction and havoc seen in Chapter 829 as something the Charlotte Family and Totland citizens will happily put up with and won't be grateful for it being solved. And stop claiming that it's about Big Mom giving up her chance with Germa 66 as if I'm saying Big Mom literally has to call it quits. The situation and factions involved leave much room for opportunities that will take that choice or value away from Big Mom.

    I mean the tottand people know how to bring him back so she doesn't kill her kids if that's your worry. More importantly it's not simply a matter of the children mattering but what she has to let go. Her superstone, the chance for a clone army, the tech, the strawhats, Jimbei, Pedro. That's a lot you imagine her given up. There is no way Big Mom is giving all that away. Except of course if they have the secret to gigantification but it seems it's a pie dream for now. So aside for Blackmail where they are somewhat the dominating force...

    Stop this making this fallacy that just because someone cares about something a lot means that they will keep caring about it a lot no matter what can happen, or that it can stay possible. And it would justify her betrayal at all because the Vinsmoke Family would have been provoked. Which is one of several reasons why at the end arc, she won't and can't just pull a "AGH, YOU MEDDLING STRAW HATS RUINED EVERYTHING. I'M NOT ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY CHOICES WHATSOEVER" like a big crybaby. If she even tries to pull something like that for a few seconds after she wakes up when the dust has settled, I bet that her own family is going to feel so indebted to the Straw Hats that they'll force Big Mom to comply by standing alongside them. She has made actions that are going to bite in the back, and unlike most arc villains, she has enough sensible traits of reason and altruism (although very warped) to acknowledge her faults. lol This arc has showcased a LOT more than typical black/white morals. Considering the likelihood of Big Mom going into another delirious rampage, she's not even going to have a choice as to whether she can gain the Germa 66 technology until it's probably too late.

    I think Oda has established that it was going against your captain was aweful(water 7). However what I'm sure is that we have seen Big Mom proving time and time again that her own desire comes before her children. She even hates Lola for it and do marriages without a care for what they want. I would point out the psychotic nature of her children but I'm sure you would consider that I'm nitpicking or isn't relevant to them having some morale crisi all of the sudden. You seem to see Big Mom has a good person with big flaws. I see her as a woman who knows what she wants and will do what is needed to get it. You apply moral value(good or evil) to her actions, I don't.



    1. You're basically just making this about semantics. I never said it can't be explained. And why else would you be disappointed other than thinking that this doesn't line up with character as presented thus far? That's basically what I'm saying. The only difference is that in my case, my disappointment isn't easily washed away by an explanation after the fact that most likely wasn't built-up as much as it should have been. Regardless of whether our opinions are similar and different, I never claimed that there can't be some sort of suitable reason for Big Mom to pull this betrayal. It's Oda, he'll find a way.

    Not really. I think attacking the Vinsmoke is disappointment but not breaking the character. Cockiness and fear are motive that could push her to it. And I also think her giving up something she wants is against her established character.

    2. Luffy embodies selfishness too. He has said things that are almost exactly like what Big Mom says. Yet values his friends above all others as his true treasure. I don't see why, at the end of the day, her family can't also be the same way as seen in her dream and the page she showed. You're just using selfish as a generic buzzword that corresponds to value along the lines of power as if it can only mean that. Just because she wants Germa 66 a lot does not mean things will work out that way, or that she has to keep interest. Or that it will even be possible for her to still get the cloning tech at the end of the chaos. Luffy is all about breaking character's ambitions in one way or another. Most typically by fists, but it doesn't have to stay exclusive to that. We don't even know why she wants the Germa tech yet, so you can't really judge that the reason is something she can never go back on and can't look towards some other option.

    If Luffy is selfish I wonder who is not. Luffy may sometimes talk the talk, Big Mom has actually taken action and proven she favors herself above anything else. Luffy is Big Mom what a kid stealing a candy for his friend is to an arm bank robber. If somehow you think selfish is a buzzword wathever that means, how about She has claims that pirates should do what they want above all else. I think that fairly clear on the meaning. Although I guess thinking she is somewhat similar to Luffy may explain why you see her as being so generous.


    3. You can be stubborn in life all you want. It doesn't mean that what you want will still be available, that you will always value it with the same perception, or still do "anything" for it when you realize the cost it might have for something else you value very much.
    4. Lenient by VILLAIN STANDARDS. I seriously do not understand why I have to keep reiterating this to people. Of course those deals aren't realistically lenient from an objective perspective lol. You're making this an argument of semantics when we mean the exact same thing. When I say "lenient", I mean how you described "fair". I'm pretty sure that letting Pedro, an intruder who cost her the eye of a valued member, off with "just" fifty years (which is obviously a hefty, cruel price) after lowering it from seventy can be labeled as lenient in several types of perspectives. Typically ones that are perverse and business-like, which we agree defines her personality. Any other arc villain would have never made the type of deal she offered to the likes of Luffy, Jimbei, and Pedro.
    Except you plan for her to be genuinely generous not simply by villain standard whatever that may be. I expect her to be herself meaning not lose what she wants but give what she believes is a fair. For example letting a full crew leave her island without taking part of their lives. I don't know if I would describe her as evil but I certainly wouldn't make a saint.
    1. It doesn't mean she'll can always get what she wants, will always want it, or can't have things she values conflict with each other, forcing her to side with what she values more.

    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.

    2. It is. But it's not like she can have a choice or chance to still get the tech with how complex things might get.

    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.

    3. It is. But it would be her form of expressing gratitude for saving the day. That is a good "equal" exchange. And if she still doesn't view it as such, she can just have Luffy roll the roulette. It's completely in-character for his stupidity and pride to accept. And I wouldn't be surprised if his luck earns him some sort of rare "I don't have to pay anything" prize or something. And the Road Poneglyph script can still be secretly stolen like how Nami stole wallets at the end of Arlong Park and the Straw Hats tried to steal the gold at the end of Skypiea (even though the Skypieans and Shandians would have just given them that treasure out of gratitude lol). If Big Mom can play a little dirty, the Straw Hats certainly can while still being in the moral right.

    Since you admit it is generous let's keep it simple. Big Mom is not generous. She is fair. If she can accomodate she will but she isn't breaking her leg for you.She can let the strawhats go but between Reiju, the tech and the stone they need to many thing for Big Mom to do a deal with them. And it would seriously be ridicoulous for Big Mom to somehow partner with the strawhats and not know they made a copy of her superstone.

    4. A family of super soldiers with enhanced genetics and battle prowess. But regardless, Germa can still exist without the cloning technology with so many soldiers already existing. Reiju takes over, commands all of the soldiers, no more clones are made, and she probably makes them fight for helpless/innocent countries than just the highest bidder. That's all. Sanji was appalled by the cone technology, so it probably means the cloning tech is meant to be viewed as an immoral process that should be destroyed.

    She has freaking Ceasar in there why wouldn't she hove the clones there to duplicate the result. And do you seriously expect the flying boots and other accessories to disappear from the manga?



    lol No, it's not too much at all. If Oda balanced so many plotlines up to this point, then he can handle those. Which aren't even as spread out and contained because all of those characters' goals and alignments are finally intersecting and either merging or directly conflicting. That's the point of building up plot threads, so that they eventually connect and have payoff. This is nothing that somewhere around twenty-thirty chapters can't get done. Especially since its unlikely for any Straw Hats besides Sanji to get one-on-one fights anymore (not that I would mind seeing them at all). It's been over twenty chapters since the Straw Hats reached Totland. Having the arc last until the 870's or maybe even 880's still keeps it around Punk Hazard/Alabasta length, and still has room to squeeze in the start of the Reverie and Wano Country later in the year.

    If battles happen Luffy is getting one. He always get one.


    Oooohhh, that statement. Thanks for bringing it up, I can often lost track of a few details in what I type lol. Well, how is saving Sanji, potentially Brook, Reiju, getting the Road Poneglyph, quelling her delirious rampage, and convincing Big Mom to let them go not outsmarting her? She tried to brag so much about how she could kill the Straw Hats anytime she wanted, how Luffy was just a grain in the sand, and how supposedly inconceivable it is for Sanji not coming back to the Straw Hats to be their worst possible scenario rather than them dying. It would be pretty delicious for them to do all of those things (though she doesn't need to know about the Road Poneglyph part) to prove her completely wrong, but even save everything she values in her wellbeing, family, and kingdom that became so endangered in the first place because of her power making decisions? That would be humiliating and be one of the greatest triumphs the Straw Hats will ever accomplish in this series.
    Fascinating how you can go from denying your sentence to making it sound as if I was the one who denied it.

    But Oda introduces flashbacks to have a point and narrative payoff. There are other characters involved than just Big Mom like Pudding, Lola, and the rest of the Charlotte Family that demand proper satisfaction from the conflicts introduced and development that will occur.

    Pudding sure but the rest is just your typical crew.



    1. That doesn't mean you have any reasons to suggest it won't or doesn't line up with the narrative build up and consistent theme of betrayals being a significant thing in this arc. It's not that subtle at all, it's pretty obvious something big will go down with how much of a big deal the wedding has been made out to be in general. And Oda can pull plenty of twists. He does them in the scope of arcs every once in a while. That doesn't mean it's impossible to analyze and discover the trail leading up to them, because there has to be one if the twist is satisfyingly built-up.
    I wouldn't mind of couple of example of those twist build up in the middle of the arc as oppsed to being hinted in previous one to pay up latter.

    2. It wouldn't shift the tone at all. It would completely fit in with the types of scenes and character interactions we've already seen and keep getting development. They all line-up and properly segue into each other
    I'm far from being as certain as you.

    3. Because a Yonko destroying two individual groups that are not relevant in the story almost at all outside of this arc promotes any sort of satisfying change or payoff from what has been built-up thus far, and only keeps things relatively the exact same minus a few more details being added. And escaping would be grossly negligent towards the characters that have had bonds and relevance set up before being cut short without any satisfying change or payoff. Especially if Sanji won't get the chance to experience a catharsis by showing the Vinsmokes the power of both his compassion and earned physical technique inspired by his true father.

    It serves the same purpose as killing those Sea kings or beating those vice admiral. Establishing your threat by destroying lesser threat that are considered a big deal in this world. It also helps weaken Big Mom, giving the chance for a more prominent character to land the finishing blow. Could also make Capone a more important figure but I don't expect so much. The Vinsmokes could be in the strawats way since they absolutely want that marriage.

    1. Wedding processes can be set up with creative liberties in fiction. There's no need to go by a specific realistic interpretation, especially with how Tea Parties seem to be unique events in themselves that aren't always weddings and the fact that this series is so surreal to begin with. And yeah, the Fishman Island bombs will certainly things tense. But what's the better option here? Leaving and having the bomb go off, where Big Mom will then have no problem unleashing her wrath on Fishman Island? Or having the Straw Hats be present and find some miraculously way to curb Big Mom's potential rage? If anything, it helps my case more than yours when it comes to the prospect of Big Mom invading Fishman Island not being possible at this point in the story narratively.

    You seem to rely a lot on non established things as Big Mom become altruistic and realizing her worong or marriage gift being open in advance for some reason. I would say a bomb blowing on her face make the negociation harder and makes an explosive situation more likely. Considering an explosive situation is exactly what I expect it fits. She could easily blame the strawhats for the bomb considering they were the one to give it to her. Plus being busy dealing with the chaos in her territory.


    2. All they have is one giant room filled with tech, as far as we've seen. And the Germa Castle in itself is basically ship-sized. It's doubtful that a roaming country at sea has any tech lying about anywhere else. Especially when the cloning process is so intricate that it takes five years for clones to fully mature.

    I'm talking flying booths and the likes.

    3. You can want something as much as you want. It doesn't equate to being able to get it or always wanting it no matter what happens.

    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.


    Yes, yes it does. Because that scene shoes she clearly values her children to some degree by encouraging them to get along. That, and Oda NEVER portrays irredeemable arc antagonists with such a positive ambiance.

    Mr 2 or Magellan comes to mind. There's also Doffly saving Bufallo and the girl. CP9 was full of quirky(that dude with zipper).



    Also, plenty of characters in this series like Whitebeard and Shanks kill, and they're still cool people. It's a pirate series, not everybody's going to be a saint.

    I know Shanks can be cool since he likes to party. I'm not so sure with how things work with Whitebeard. So you really do think Big Mom is a good guy/gal. That explains much on our differences. Anyway her daughter is on her kill list and she has proven to value her desires more than her children.

    1. What does it matter whether Moscato's dead or not (and of course he isn't, or at least won't stay that way)? It doesn't change that Totland gets sporadically terrorized by a delirious Big Mom every now and then as their one major blight on their racially harmonious paradise, or that there is a lot of tension present in the Charlotte Family that should get focused on and solved. Just because the Charlotte Family likes to pull this facade that everything is okay and bare with such excruciating time does not mean it should not get solved.

    A pirate crew is not a democracy.

    2. That is exactly what I mean. It's also likely for the tech choice to be replaced with destroying the Straw Hats by irrationally blaming them for everything that's happened without taking any responsibility.

    Our visions of Big Mom differs greatly. You seem to believe she is going to feel remorses for her actions I don't. However I would really like an idea on how abandonning the tech is suppose to literally save the life of her children.

    3. I'm not talking about the tech itself, but all of the choices she's made to gain the tech and how some of them going to really bite her back with big consequences that could risk her losing all of the power she's amassed so far. Also, it could put her kids in danger if they actively resist her out of feeling indebted to the Straw Hats' bravery. Especially when they were too afraid to do anything during Big Mom's rampages, but the Straw Hats themselves actually solved one and even might find a cure. It would be like the of Marineford War, where Shanks for all of the factions to make a choice between calling off all of the carnage or continuing to fight, but also having to deal with the Red Hair Pirates opposing them.
    The marines and Blackbeard backed off after both getting what they wanted so I'm not sure if it's a fitting example. Also Oda portrayed going against your captain wishes as being pretty bad. I don't except Smoothie to turn on her Mom but more importantly I don't except the children to let more than the people go.

    Why not? The Straw Hats will have saved everybody's lives and make up for most of the earlier antagonism between them and Big Mom. There can't be a full-on war between the Straw Hats Pirates and Big Mom though, because the latter will obviously win. Big Mom's logic will be taken out of the equation with the rampage and Bege and the Vinsmokes can be left to scrambled for power now that the queen isn't in her right mind and has both herself and her resources vulnerable.

    They are at "war" since Fishman island. She isn't going to be chasing Luffy around it's not like they can teleport in this world. You think Big Mom will get outshined in her own backyard and in top of that need rescue. I don't.


    The Vinsmokes and Straw Hats are never going to fight together in this arc. The same applies to Bege. They are too irredeemable as of current circumstances for Oda to allow that.
    So how do the vinsmoke know to get prepared for the betrayal?

    Not at all, actually. They only attempted to steal it. It's not like Big Mom has to view it as an unforgivable offense, especially since they're all selfish pirates and the leverage that the Straw Hats have in saving Whole Cake Island. I'm suggesting that the bomb itself is what drives Big Mom into a delirious rage (it'll probably blow up the cake, and wedding cake is what her illness will make her crave) and disrupt the marriage from being completed (although Bege could also do that).

    ​So Big Mum is a nice and dumb enough to not realize the robbery despite the strawhats sticking around. I disagree.

    The Straw Hats can find a place to stay for that long. If not the Mirror World, somewhere else that Jimbei can recommend. Or a refuge that the scattered Mink Pirates loyal to Pedro can provide. Or a place only the Sun Pirates can access. There's a decent chance that Big Mom might not even learn that Jimbei has teamed up with the Straw Hats until it's too late, and Opera can stay knocked out for over half a day.

    And suddenly you remind me that Big Mom forces also get 12 hours to prepare but still need help to deal with their own problem. I'm seriously hoping it's not happening

    Why can't there be peace for a while? The Straw Hats saving Whole Cake Island while Big Mom isn't in her right mind provides that. And it's not like Big Mom can't get taken down by a third-party after the Straw Hats leave and the arc ends. An explosive one can't work because it wouldn't get fulfilling pay off that changes the dynamic between the Straw Hats and Big Mom pirates from how it's already been without being dragged out or satisfyingly closes off Totland's established plotlines and character conflicts.

    The yonko that needed to help from Luffy with half his crew to deal with her trouble and left the strawhats in good terms got taken out by a third party. I would say it ain't happening but since she's the female of the group I'll go with I don't think it will happen.


    1. Which we already had before this arc started. Nothing changes, and Kaido going down at Wano Country just makes Big Mom lose hype as a threat by being ANOTHER Yonko to take down rather than the seemingly invincible power monger she was before. At least with the Warlords, their ranges of power and resources were all over the place so the anticipation can keep rising. The Yonko are stalemated and rival each other. Not that they are exactly equal, but enough where a full-on war is going to give the winner a pyrrhic victory. It messes with the Luffy underdog formula, even if Luffy defeats Kaido through some sort of Supernova team-up.

    I don't think Luffy having to use his whole crew, 2 ex-schibukai, a warrior race and the remnants of a yonko crew to hope matching Kaido's forces is going to make the threat of another yonko less problematic. By that logic Blackbeard is redundant. However I could see how a yonko needing help to deal with her own internal affair and having to bow to the demand of half the strawhats could be a disservice to the threat yonko's are supposed to be. But I guess being the woman makes her that different. Gender quota got her the job.



    3. They can do that after peace is made with Big Mom and they reflect on how intimidating a Yonko can be as they go to war with one in the next arc.

    Getting what they wanted from Big Mom after she needed their help dealing with her turf trouble is not really convincing way to hype the next yonko.

    4. How does it NOT accomplish anything? It gives a satisfying conclusion on Big Mom being a threat, keeps Sanji, Jimbei, Fishman Island (for now), Reiju, and Zeff safe, properly closes off all of the hype surrounding Lola, gives meaningful weight to the power of a Yonko as the Straw Hats learn from this experience as they go on to face Kaido, can share some powerfully inspiring messages about family, selfishness, prejudice, and dreams, gives Straw Hats allies like Germa 66 and the Charlotte Family to play a role in the Final War, and can leave Big Mom vulnerable for a third-party like the Marines/World Government to gain power and be a credible a threat in the Final War than always looking incompetent and being overcome outside of the Marineford saga. It might also help tie into Elbaf in an unexpected cool way if Big Mom's phobia towards Giants and Lola's marriage had to do with it. Which would be much better than Big Mom showing up as antagonist there, where she loses some of her luster and has her plotlines too dragged out to feel as meaningful as they do in this arc.

    I would say it merely makes a yonko crew at the very least doubtful in term of efficiency and most likely grossly imcompetent, undermining the hype for the next villain and making any party that would take her on a petty win. But at least we would see Sanji's sister with a bunch of clones in a future war in 10 years.


    It's actually helps her a lot. Because all of the wedding chaos and the Big Mom antagonism being solved out of the likes of gratefulness and a negotiation gives that much more weight to how badly the Straw Hats would have lost if they engaged in a full-out battle with the Big Mom Pirates like they typically do with other pirates crews. That gives credit to her status as a Yonko. Unless you want to claim that Yonko are supposed to be invincible and having the likes of her allies or her own daughter reasonably having the means to manipulate her discredits her character like other people try to claim. Just because she has one of the four strongest pirate crews does mean she's perfect, or should be in a boring Aizen/Madara Uchiha way (I'm not accusing you of thinking this by the way, I'm just talking about certain comments I've read). Tension is good when it fits into a time frame that's just right and dragged out to be duller.

    Since claiming Big Mom should be better than that is claiming you need perfect character. Let me try to compare For Kaido:
    Luffy with his whole crew, Law with his whole crew, An ex-schibukai, a race of warriors. What Big Mom is facing: The vinsmokes, Bege and his crew, possibly Pudding. Yet she still need the help of Luffy. I see a big difference. And that's being generous.

    If you're talking about how Doflamingo values his crewmates, Oda pulled that under the rug with the flashback shtick of how he was "born evil" and having Rosinante and Law claim that he only views his crewmates as tools. Not that I don't personally think Doflamingo cares about them to some degree (although I would wager he shows compassion to them more as if they are loyal pets and appreciating them as expendable followers for his anarchy cause in a Fight Club fashion).

    Oda also had him burn on crosses, show emotion when about to kill his bro, and the saving of Bufallo and the girl was definitely play as nice.



    Also, I thought that you said you had a problem with Big Mom being redeemed with how you explicitly said "As a yonko I expect better than we had some fun in cake island and befriend the lady after we cured her and made her a better person. But Oda has disappointed me before so who knows." To which I tried to respond about how you shouldn't have hung onto such expectations in the first place. Which I did by noting evidence in her characterization since Fishman Island about how she has ethical attributes alongside her flaws that other arc antagonists never have because Oda doesn't like his readers sympathizing with villains that Luffy defeats. He wants them to have completely good feelings from happy endings without moral complexity. Which is the main reason why it's so likely for Big Mom to not get defeated in this arc, and why her rage towards Luffy will settle down.

    I don't plan on Luffy defeating her. Not this arc anyway.


    Why would she care if she thinks Urouge is dead?

    Fair enough I hadn't read that thing in a while. It still proves she can be sloppy in her revenges.


    Which probably means the circumstances of that event aren't as major as they are with the Straw Hats. Not that makes it any less likely for Big Mom to stop hating them. I don't really see how this helps your argument though because it only adds to how "fair" Big Mom can be, which is why peace being made between her and Luffy is so likely compared to past arc antagonists.

    Because she isn't instant death to whoever is causing her trouble. She doesn't mess around in her territory but once out it is a much smoother ride which mean that the strawhats won't be instantly ded once they have escape.


    I still fail to see how a chaotic wedding situation with factions pulling for power and Big Mom on a rampage that seems impossible to calm does not literally define the word "tension".
    I thought the meaning of my sentence was clear. Oda wanting tension that will last beyond is exactly what I'm expecting.

    Doesn't mean it can still be as impactful and tense as it is in this arc.
    I'm not sure requiring help and being on the protagonist side qualify you as threat. Even less an impactful one.


    You mean situations where Luffy lost or got stuck somewhere to advance the plot in other places? The latter can certainly be true when it came to how spaced apart the Seducing Woods in general were.
    But this is the very first time that Luffy overcame a threat early on in the arc that pushed him to his max.
    First battle with Crocodile, Evenly match with bazooka angel, Magellan first round.

    This is not a Mohji/Blueno situation
    Luffy got tired against Blueno but wathever
    and it certainly doesn't fall into the pattern of Luffy getting beaten and either playing smarter or pulling a power-up/plot armor out of nowhere in the second round like with
    Crocodile, Lucci, Magellan, and Caesar. Also, Oda seems to be turning familiar tropes in the series on their head with how the Minks on Zou became allies so quickly rather than prejudicially antagonizing the Straw Hats akin to so many other island populations.
    What population hated the strawhats? Usually they are barely aware of them
    So why not have a surprising red herring main antagonist, especially one as big (literally lol) as a Yonko?
    You really are trying to make it seems like I am advocating for Luffy to fight Big Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Or it's just a retcon. Just one that was made on an event before didn't mind killing. And even then, Oda never had any named recurring characters die on-panel. Which is why it's very likely for Gin to show up again one day despite being poisoned.
    You insist that Robin was supposed to have killed someone rather than simply admit that like every other action she took prior she was undermining Crocodile. She gives a direct route to Alabasta, let Pell live, let Vivi follow her but she draws the line at fake dummies that don't even slow her. She even was a future crewmate. I think Oda knows wether or not he wants a future crewmate to kill an ally of the strawhats.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  2. #402
    Cool Cap Pirates Captain Sads's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 852: The Germa Failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    Pudding will actually get her retribution by Pedro slashing her third eye. Then she will go on to become a musician and record hit musical pieces, some of which include "Semi-Charmed Life" and "Jumper".
    Seems no one got the" Third Eye Blind" reference.


    http://www.youtube.com/user/sads07
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  3. #403
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 852: The Germa Failure

    @desa:
    Spoiler:

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I mean the tottand people know how to bring him back so she doesn't kill her kids if that's your worry. More importantly it's not simply a matter of the children mattering but what she has to let go. Her superstone, the chance for a clone army, the tech, the strawhats, Jimbei, Pedro. That's a lot you imagine her given up. There is no way Big Mom is giving all that away. Except of course if they have the secret to gigantification but it seems it's a pie dream for now. So aside for Blackmail where they are somewhat the dominating force...
    You keep thinking too quantitatively about the Straw Hats' actions, but not enough in a qualitative sense. The only thing that's really significant is the tech. Everything the Straw Hats have done thus far isn't anything really irreparable to her (besides the Road Poneglyph script, but the Straw Hats have only attempted to steal it. They haven't actually gotten it as a method to one-up her on making Luffy Pirate King yet). She was already willing to let Jimbei go, and Pedro's just fighting one minion. You make the tech seem like Big Mom has to make a choice to give it up, but she doesn't have to. That choice can be robbed from her and made impossible. Likely stemming from her actions of deciding to betray the Vinsmokes and wherever that can lead when the Vinsmokes learn about it in the wedding.


    I think Oda has established that it was going against your captain was aweful(water 7). However what I'm sure is that we have seen Big Mom proving time and time again that her own desire comes before her children. She even hates Lola for it and do marriages without a care for what they want. I would point out the psychotic nature of her children but I'm sure you would consider that I'm nitpicking or isn't relevant to them having some morale crisi all of the sudden. You seem to see Big Mom has a good person with big flaws. I see her as a woman who knows what she wants and will do what is needed to get it. You apply moral value(good or evil) to her actions, I don't.
    Does that mean the likes of Law, Rosinante, Baby 5, and Gin are scum? The first three betrayed Doffy and Gin knocked out his captain.

    It was how and why Usopp went about it that was a big deal, and the fact that Luffy won the duel. If Usopp was coming back, he had to apologize because crew member can't go walking in and out on a whim. Zoro also threatened to leave and kept Luffy in check by convincing him to let Usopp back in immediately. The scenes leading up to Usopp's return were about how leaving the crew should be treated lightly and that crews can only function properly if the members have faith in their captain. It wasn't trying to make going against your captain an objective moral evil or something. Loyalty to the captain is emphasized in this series, but not to the point where it should be blind loyalty that completely defies your conscience if in the right. You need to keep your cap'n in check, which happens all the time with Luffy. If they're evil, it's encouraged that they should leave or betray them.

    Also, Luffy encouraged Bellamy to rebel against Doflamingo, but Bellamy tried to die for the sake of his pride in a tragic fashion. And although Gin stuck with Krieg, he knocked him and told him to accept their defeat. He also elaborated on how his loyalty to Krieg was just him living in his shadow and being afraid to speak up. These are morally complex characters that were criticized by others around them. They're choices aren't objectively right, but are made relative to their own morals.

    As warped as this sounds, just because she forces her children to take part in marriages against their say does not mean she wants them to die or get seriously injured, or is willing to pull a Doflamingo and ask them to die for her at the drop of a hat. She's very selfish, yes, but that doesn't mean how she treats her family has to automatically be equated to how malevolent the likes of Judge, Doflamingo, and Teach can be.

    Lola is tricky. But I still expect something fishy there considering how sure Lola was about Big Mom being able to help out the Straw Hats. As convoluted as this sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if Pudding is revealed to be pulling memory altering shenanigans. Although that reveal would definitely make you feel Big Mom is pathetic if Luffy saving her already makes you feel she does the Yonko title a disservice lol. The kid being a sociopath is probably an Oda quirk. Not that it's any less concerning realistically, but having someone like that in a pirate crew, especially Big Mom's, fits.

    Not really. I think attacking the Vinsmoke is disappointment but not breaking the character. Cockiness and fear are motive that could push her to it. And I also think her giving up something she wants is against her established character.
    You're not wrong. At all, actually. It's just that i don't think she has to give up on the Germa 66 tech in order to have the plot deal with how she doesn't get it while still making peace with Luffy.



    If Luffy is selfish I wonder who is not. Luffy may sometimes talk the talk, Big Mom has actually taken action and proven she favors herself above anything else. Luffy is Big Mom what a kid stealing a candy for his friend is to an arm bank robber. If somehow you think selfish is a buzzword wathever that means, how about She has claims that pirates should do what they want above all else. I think that fairly clear on the meaning. Although I guess thinking she is somewhat similar to Luffy may explain why you see her as being so generous.
    A character being selfish does not necessarily mean they will do whatever means necessary to get what they want. There are varying degrees. All I'm saying is that you could be more specific when describing Big Mom and setting her apart from other characters. And Luffy also encourages the selfish freedom of others. But what sets them apart is, like you said, Big Mom does favor herself above everybody else. At least, when it comes to her children in terms of consent. When it comes to deals, it gets more murky since she values an ally like Jimbei but is willing let him roll the roulette without wanting to hear why he wants to leave.

    Except you plan for her to be genuinely generous not simply by villain standard whatever that may be. I expect her to be herself meaning not lose what she wants but give what she believes is a fair. For example letting a full crew leave her island without taking part of their lives. I don't know if I would describe her as evil but I certainly wouldn't make a saint.
    I don't make her out to be a saint either. It wouldn't break her character since it's part of an established philosophy and attribute she has. Just because it's seen the most often thus far in the context of And she has shown to be prone to getting impressed with daring people. Luffy can definitely make that impression, and even already has a in a couple small instances. That is herself. And it's why I like to bring up that she her form of generosity could be in granting Luffy the chance to play a game to be fully forgiven. That fits in with how you and I see her character as wanting things to be "fair" in an ethical business way. Not to mention that she can learn about the Straw Hats' plans to take down Kaido at Wano Country, and let them go so that she can take advantage knocking off someone who's a bigger thorn in her side, or at least weaken them after being a stalemate for a decade or two
    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.
    That's fair.



    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.
    That's fair.


    Since you admit it is generous let's keep it simple. Big Mom is not generous. She is fair. If she can accomodate she will but she isn't breaking her leg for you.She can let the strawhats go but between Reiju, the tech and the stone they need to many thing for Big Mom to do a deal with them. And it would seriously be ridicoulous for Big Mom to somehow partner with the strawhats and not know they made a copy of her superstone.
    Oh God, we're getting into another semantics argument lol. When I say generous, I mean that Big Mom is paying back what the Straw Hats gave in saving her and everything she values by giving them a pardon. At least somewhat, because the roulette game is still there for Luffy to roll so he can "even the score".

    Why would it ridiculous for them to outsmart Big Mom by finding a way to copy the Poneglyph stone scripts? Brook literally said that this would be their only chance to get those scripts. They're going to get it because of how true that statement is and because they have the ability to do so with how hectic things are getting. Maybe not during the castle chaos right now, but during or somehow after the wedding during the final party and farewell chapters.


    She has freaking Ceasar in there why wouldn't she hove the clones there to duplicate the result. And do you seriously expect the flying boots and other accessories to disappear from the manga?
    Because they're programmed to only take orders from their leaders, AKA the Vinsmokes specifically? When the Vinsmokes are killed, the soldiers are going to act and either get imprisoned or meet an untimely demise. If she really valued the soldiers so much, she shouldn't betray the Vinsmokes. Which is one reason why the betrayal bothers me on a logical level lol. Caesar's there because he can help with Big Mom's Gigantified family theme. I don't think flying boots have the same amount of value for that goal.

    You mean the flying boots that have barely been made relevant and seem like generic sci-fi gear? Pretty much. I mean, what are you suggesting? Big Mom wanting that technology too and not just the cloning stuff? It would certainly be helpful, but I don't think she has much of a reason to care about that. Besides, Vegapunk probably has all sorts of other tools, and all the major factions have stronger sources of power to rely on than the Germa's tech. Even with just Haki and Devil Fruits. It would just be an instance where a character is fine with their faction's skill set. You could bring this same sort of issue to other franchises and ask questions like why don't Avengers like Captain America and Black Widow ask Iron Man to build their own unique armor and gadgets. The Germa technology thus far isn't even as unique as the Dials were at this point in the story and moves like Sky Walk making floating boots useless. Or Reiju redeems Germa 66 by giving their tech to countries in aid, who cares lol.

    lol No, it's not too much at all. If Oda balanced so many plotlines up to this point, then he can handle those. Which aren't even as spread out and contained because all of those characters' goals and alignments are finally intersecting and either merging or directly conflicting. That's the point of building up plot threads, so that they eventually connect and have payoff. This is nothing that somewhere around twenty-thirty chapters can't get done. Especially since its unlikely for any Straw Hats besides Sanji to get one-on-one fights anymore (not that I would mind seeing them at all). It's been over twenty chapters since the Straw Hats reached Totland. Having the arc last until the 870's or maybe even 880's still keeps it around Punk Hazard/Alabasta length, and still has room to squeeze in the start of the Reverie and Wano Country later in the year.

    If battles happen Luffy is getting one. He always get one.
    I want to agree, but his defeat of Cracker was pretty unorthodox with how he was pushed to the limit. Having him fight any of the Vinsmokes feels to awkward. Bege is way too weak. He can just fight illness deranged Big Mom with the rest of the crew Oars-style until Chopper (and maybe Sanji) cook up medicine or develop some sort of method to quell her illness. Luffy won't win, obviously, but he already got a big win with Cracker. And if that's not enough, he can fight Judge or Ichiji I guess even though it would be underwhelming for Sanji to not defeat them (but then again, he stole Law's thunder against Doflamingo).

    Fascinating how you can go from denying your sentence to making it sound as if I was the one who denied it.
    I'm sorry, I got confused again and read your sentence wrong, which made me think you were asking me why I thought my theory would give the Straw Hats credit for outsmarting Big Mom. I only denied it in the first place because I forgot that I worded my argument in such a fashion and thought that you brought up my quote in the context of claiming something like if I expected the Straw Hats to defeat Big Mom as the final antagonist of this arc or something. I apologize if that whole thing was confusing.

    Getting to what you actually said:

    I'm not sure what relaying on Big Mom has to do with outsmarting her.


    I assume that "relaying" is a typo for "relying". And I'm not sure why you're saying that the Straw Hats would be relying on Big Mom. Are you talking about them relying on Big Mom to be generous to survive? I don't really get that. I don't mean to sound like I'm discrediting your argument as not making sense, I'm just not even sure where you got that type of idea from, the Straw Hats relying on Big Mom. The solve the marriage crisis themselves without Linlin's help, and she would only be letting them leave, maybe after a game, at the end of the arc. That's pretty much it, unless you're talking about the Straw Hats "relying" on Big Mom being in a delirious rampage to save the day meaning that the Straw Hats can't be attributed with outsmarting Big Mom this arc, which I disagree with because they proved all of her doubts about their capabilities wrong. And they could have left with Sanji and Jimbei, but decide to stay for the wedding to save Reiju and whatever else has to be done. Just having the choice to leave with them means they outsmarted her.

    If I'm misunderstanding you, feel free to clear it up.



    Pudding sure but the rest is just your typical crew.
    Pound and Chiffon also have roles that need to be closed out on. In fact, I'm surprised that Chiffon hasn't been relevant to the plot at all besides making cameos with Bege.

    I wouldn't mind of couple of example of those twist build up in the middle of the arc as oppsed to being hinted in previous one to pay up latter.
    I would prefer more panel time for Bege and the twist too than just getting those few pages on Chapter 834 only to never be seen again thus far. But it at least lines up with how eager he was to get Sanji to come to the wedding on Zou, enough to attempt killing a crewmate. So it's something. But I agree there could be more.

    I'm far from being as certain as you.
    Okay. I'm just saying that the betrayal(s) that will occur during the wedding are all connected and can bounce off of each other quick and effectively.


    It serves the same purpose as killing those Sea kings or beating those vice admiral. Establishing your threat by destroying lesser threat that are considered a big deal in this world. It also helps weaken Big Mom, giving the chance for a more prominent character to land the finishing blow. Could also make Capone a more important figure but I don't expect so much. The Vinsmokes could be in the strawats way since they absolutely want that marriage.
    But treating Bege and the Vinsmokes like Sea Kings despite all of the significant plot threads that revolved around them never getting properly explored would be really irresponsible. They're not big in the grand scheme of One Piece or anything, but they are still major arc characters that contribute way more than expendable Vice Admirals like Maynard. There is no narrative need for Big Mom to establish a threat she's already a big deal and already gives across the impression of how she doesn't tolerate malevolent insubordination.

    The Vinsmokes misunderstanding the situation and fighting the Straw Hats to promote the marriage while not knowing about the betrayal can actually work for a little, but it would be tricky to keep going without them sensibly finding out.


    You seem to rely a lot on non established things as Big Mom become altruistic and realizing her worong or marriage gift being open in advance for some reason. I would say a bomb blowing on her face make the negociation harder and makes an explosive situation more likely. Considering an explosive situation is exactly what I expect it fits. She could easily blame the strawhats for the bomb considering they were the one to give it to her. Plus being busy dealing with the chaos in her territory.
    Except that she has personality traits of being reasonable/"fair", a personal selfless dream relating to her family, valuing racial coexistence (with rare creatures that don't seem to make up a whole race being a morbid exception, as well as Giants for whatever reason), etc, that give way to her making choices like realizing her wrongs. Linlin being grateful to the Straw Hats is meant to be a twist with subtle buildup in the traits of her characterization. Of course there twists like these are going to appear to be "non-established" at first glance, because that's essential for buying fans into thinking that Big Mom is the true final antagonist of this arc. It's just like with characters such as Franky, Robin, Bellamy, Hachi, Duval, Bentham, etc, who might seem like typical scum at first, but have hints in their characterization and actions that leaves room for redemption. Not everyone starts off on the high road, and you shouldn't expect that in a pirate series. The key thing to take not above all else is how Big Mom's ratio between her positive and negative attributes stand out form other irredeemable arc antagonists (prior to getting beaten and redeeming themselves in a cover story or later arc) in analyzing what Oda cares to promote in arc antagonists. Which is making them feel completely irredeemable so that the audience is always satisfied with a happy ending without any conflicted emotions. That's disappointing since there can be really good villains who have morally grey perspective or originally be innocent in their backstory before tragedy struck, but it is what it is for One Piece.

    And relying on trivial realistic details of subjects like weddings is asking for a rude awakening in a series as surreal as One Piece. Just look at her excuse for a "roulette" and see the creative liberties Oda took with making it look much look a dartboard. You don't have to stick by every detail of a process.

    The territory chaos isn't that big of a deal. Even Luffy beating up a Sweet Commander. We saw Franky still become an ally after everything that happened between Usopp and the Franky Family.

    When it comes to the Fishman Island, I actually don't know how that's going to get fixed. It could be forgotten since it would be the trigger for her delirious state and thus a special moment of mental flux, but that would be cheap. Of course, Big Mom doesn't have to be the one to open it in order for it to ruin her cake. It might actually be a bit funny if Bege's coup starts and gains a bit of traction, but he opens the treasure box and ends up getting blasted away with the wedding cake in smithereens right in front of Big Mom. Since Fishman Island built up to this moment for so long and it (along with Jimbei joining the Straw Hats) has to get solved for a quality conclusion, I have faith in Oda figuring out a clever way.


    I'm talking flying booths and the likes.
    I don't think Big Mom cares. I wouldn't deny that it's a waste, especially for someone as tactical as her. But that's just how authors write characters in action series. They like to preserve unique consistent themes with their abilities, designs, and motivations. The cloning tech will likely be revealed to compliment those traits, but the Germa tech doesn't add any thematic consistency.


    She may fail but I expect her to try and not give up.
    That's fair.

    Mr 2 or Magellan comes to mind. There's also Doffly saving Bufallo and the girl. CP9 was full of quirky(that dude with zipper).
    Since when are Mr. 2 or Magellan irredeemable? And quirky does not equal being redeemable lol, it's just making characters on any moral point have personality. Just look at the quirks a couple of the Blackbeard Pirates have. None of them are turning good. And Doffy's a peculiarAlso, plenty of characters in this series like Whitebeard and Shanks kill, and they're still cool people. It's a pirate series, not everybody's going to be a saint.

    I know Shanks can be cool since he likes to party. I'm not so sure with how things work with Whitebeard. So you really do think Big Mom is a good guy/gal. That explains much on our differences. Anyway her daughter is on her kill list and she has proven to value her desires more than her children.
    Whitebeard kills people who irk him. Remember how Rockstar tried to give him the message from Shanks? If he let his hurt feelings make him try to gain Whitebeard's audience again, he could have gotten flicked over to Reverse Mountain.

    Again, I don't think she's a saint. Why does pointing out the complex virtues Big Mom has on an ethical level equate to thinking that she is the coolest gal? In fact, I'm actually not perfectly comfortable with Luffy and Linlin becoming best friends and celebrating with a huge party or whatever after everything she's done. But that doesn't mean that characters doesn't have a varied mix of moral traits, potential for redeemability, or are perfectly good people through and through even they may ally with Luffy. She's only proven that values her desires above the SAY of her children. Not the children themselves. Going from how Big Mom treats Pudding in that flashback she had, I bet Linlin dotes on her children and tries to make almost every decision for them. And like I said earlier, Lola is a sketchy situation that already seems suspiciously inconsistent.


    A pirate crew is not a democracy.
    Then I guess Luffy should've kicked Zoro out of the crew when he threatened to quit if Usopp came back without apologizing.

    Our visions of Big Mom differs greatly. You seem to believe she is going to feel remorses for her actions I don't. However I would really like an idea on how abandonning the tech is suppose to literally save the life of her children.
    It's not about how abandoning the tech put her children at risk, but about how the way she pursued it can put them all in trouble when the wedding goes to Hell. Thus making Big Mom acknowledge her faults, especially since her dream is about her family. So she does care them to a notable degree, it's just that she puts her freedom above theirs. That doesn't mean if their whole lives are in danger, she won't be concerned.

    The marines and Blackbeard backed off after both getting what they wanted so I'm not sure if it's a fitting example. Also Oda portrayed going against your captain wishes as being pretty bad. I don't except Smoothie to turn on her Mom but more importantly I don't except the children to let more than the people go.
    Why not? The Straw Hats will have saved everybody's lives and make up for most of the earlier antagonism between them and Big Mom. There can't be a full-on war between the Straw Hats Pirates and Big Mom though, because the latter will obviously win. Big Mom's logic will be taken out of the equation with the rampage and Bege and the Vinsmokes can be left to scrambled for power now that the queen isn't in her right mind and has both herself and her resources vulnerable.

    They are at "war" since Fishman island. She isn't going to be chasing Luffy around it's not like they can teleport in this world. You think Big Mom will get outshined in her own backyard and in top of that need rescue. I don't.
    Cut the semantics, you KNOW the context of war I was referring to, which would be the Straw Hats and their Totland allies fighting against Big Mom's crew Dressrosa-style. And there's nothing wrong with getting some thunder stolen and needing to be saved. Neither takes away her credibility as a threat and Emperor. Being one the strongest pirates doesn't equal being perfect, and it shouldn't. That would be boring.[/QUOTE]The Vinsmokes and Straw Hats are never going to fight together in this arc. The same applies to Bege. They are too irredeemable as of current circumstances for Oda to allow that.

    So how do the vinsmoke know to get prepared for the betrayal?
    Probably from the wedding getting disrupted somehow right around the time the betrayal happens, or the wedding goes to hell before it can reach that point and the Vinsmokes get confused. Which causes them to pick a side for a while, either immediately betraying Big Mom or siding with her until Sanji, Reiju, or maybe even Pudding just for the lols tells them the truth.


    ​So Big Mum is a nice and dumb enough to not realize the robbery despite the strawhats sticking around. I disagree.
    Why is it so impossible for you to view the Straw Hats stealing the Poneglyph scripts as a credit to their skills rather than a humiliating flaw of Big Mom's? It's completely understandable to have rivals who want Poneglyph scripts, and that's going to pale in comparison to saving her life, land, and family.

    And suddenly you remind me that Big Mom forces also get 12 hours to prepare but still need help to deal with their own problem. I'm seriously hoping it's not happening
    And that's exactly why the Straw Hats will prevail. Of course the Big Mom Pirates can't be operating at full capacity with all of their members in tip-top shape while only half of the crew plus some allies are present. Which gives credit to Big Mom as a threat. But you're probably just going to use that as another reason to criticize her Yonko hype portrayal.


    The yonko that needed to help from Luffy with half his crew to deal with her trouble and left the strawhats in good terms got taken out by a third party. I would say it ain't happening but since she's the female of the group I'll go with I don't think it will happen.
    Invincible villains are boring. And it's help while she is in a delirious state she cannot control. If she was in her right mind and asked for help, sure, that would be pathetic. But the illness gives her a vulnerability she can't help and can be reasonably exploited.

    I don't think Luffy having to use his whole crew, 2 ex-schibukai, a warrior race and the remnants of a yonko crew to hope matching Kaido's forces is going to make the threat of another yonko less problematic. By that logic Blackbeard is redundant. However I could see how a yonko needing help to deal with her own internal affair and having to bow to the demand of half the strawhats could be a disservice to the threat yonko's are supposed to be. But I guess being the woman makes her that different. Gender quota got her the job.
    And the Supernovas that will join the resistance against Kaido? And potentially the Grand Fleet returning? AND the samurai rebelling?
    Ah, yes. A Yonko can only be invincible and can never display any flaws whatsoever. Oda, how dare you make your characters compellingly human and not value power.
    To be honest, that part about her being a woman might not be completely false. It might be scarily on-point, actually. Not that I mind it, but still.

    Getting what they wanted from Big Mom after she needed their help dealing with her turf trouble is not really convincing way to hype the next yonko.
    Except that it would reflect how lucky the Straw Hats got in Big Mom being ethically grey.4. How does it NOT accomplish anything? It gives a satisfying conclusion on Big Mom being a threat, keeps Sanji, Jimbei, Fishman Island (for now), Reiju, and Zeff safe, properly closes off all of the hype surrounding Lola, gives meaningful weight to the power of a Yonko as the Straw Hats learn from this experience as they go on to face Kaido, can share some powerfully inspiring messages about family, selfishness, prejudice, and dreams, gives Straw Hats allies like Germa 66 and the Charlotte Family to play a role in the Final War, and can leave Big Mom vulnerable for a third-party like the Marines/World Government to gain power and be a credible a threat in the Final War than always looking incompetent and being overcome outside of the Marineford saga. It might also help tie into Elbaf in an unexpected cool way if Big Mom's phobia towards Giants and Lola's marriage had to do with it. Which would be much better than Big Mom showing up as antagonist there, where she loses some of her luster and has her plotlines too dragged out to feel as meaningful as they do in this arc.

    I would say it merely makes a yonko crew at the very least doubtful in term of efficiency and most likely grossly imcompetent, undermining the hype for the next villain and making any party that would take her on a petty win. But at least we would see Sanji's sister with a bunch of clones in a future war in 10 years.
    That's more productive than living in East Blue with her brother's adoptive father.It's actually helps her a lot. Because all of the wedding chaos and the Big Mom antagonism being solved out of the likes of gratefulness and a negotiation gives that much more weight to how badly the Straw Hats would have lost if they engaged in a full-out battle with the Big Mom Pirates like they typically do with other pirates crews. That gives credit to her status as a Yonko. Unless you want to claim that Yonko are supposed to be invincible and having the likes of her allies or her own daughter reasonably having the means to manipulate her discredits her character like other people try to claim. Just because she has one of the four strongest pirate crews does mean she's perfect, or should be in a boring Aizen/Madara Uchiha way (I'm not accusing you of thinking this by the way, I'm just talking about certain comments I've read). Tension is good when it fits into a time frame that's just right and dragged out to be duller.

    Since claiming Big Mom should be better than that is claiming you need perfect character. Let me try to compare For Kaido:
    Luffy with his whole crew, Law with his whole crew, An ex-schibukai, a race of warriors. What Big Mom is facing: The vinsmokes, Bege and his crew, possibly Pudding. Yet she still need the help of Luffy. I see a big difference. And that's being generous.
    Context matters. Kaido is going to have fight a whole war. Big Mom is going to be undermined by sabotage. And AFTER her forces have been weakened from various events beforehand.If you're talking about how Doflamingo values his crewmates, Oda pulled that under the rug with the flashback shtick of how he was "born evil" and having Rosinante and Law claim that he only views his crewmates as tools. Not that I don't personally think Doflamingo cares about them to some degree (although I would wager he shows compassion to them more as if they are loyal pets and appreciating them as expendable followers for his anarchy cause in a Fight Club fashion).

    Oda also had him burn on crosses, show emotion when about to kill his bro, and the saving of Bufallo and the girl was definitely play as nice.
    And that was before got everything with Law and Rosinante. Personally, I'm still disappointed about how Oda seems to like pushing arc villains as having no redeemable traits and sometimes going with a "born evil" concept like with Doflamingo and now the Vinsmoke Bros with how they genetically lack empathy. When Doflamingo was about kill his brother, he has a completely stoic face. I would like to believe that Doffy did have internal conflict with that despite Rosinante's accusations of him being evil incarnate, but that reveal where the Lao G bragged about how the crew only valued Baby 5 as a tool in a two-bit evil for the sake of being evil fashion after we saw Doflamingo morbidly looking out for her by killing her suitors (and Baby 5 in turn killing a minion who laughed at Pica's voice) convinced me that in the end, Oda probably views Doffy as completely evil.

    Also, just because a villain has a tragic backstory does not make his corrupt behavior or actions justified. In fact, Oda uses flashbacks like that and Arlong's to make us hate such villains even more. Which is why he emphasized Doffy being a spoiled brat from the start and has Rosinante, his brother who went through all of the same experiences while never gaining any of his personality traits, as a humbly compassionate antithesis to present how corrupt Doflamingo always was. He just got more incentive to become even worse from the embittered villagers who hated Celestial Dragons, whose actions were unjustified as well despite the understandable reasons behind their actions. I'd say that Doffy's past is sympathetic in certain regards, but still doesn't give him any redeemable traits in the slightest compared to how mixed a character Big Mom is ethically.

    Also, I thought that you said you had a problem with Big Mom being redeemed with how you explicitly said "As a yonko I expect better than we had some fun in cake island and befriend the lady after we cured her and made her a better person. But Oda has disappointed me before so who knows." To which I tried to respond about how you shouldn't have hung onto such expectations in the first place. Which I did by noting evidence in her characterization since Fishman Island about how she has ethical attributes alongside her flaws that other arc antagonists never have because Oda doesn't like his readers sympathizing with villains that Luffy defeats. He wants them to have completely good feelings from happy endings without moral complexity. Which is the main reason why it's so likely for Big Mom to not get defeated in this arc, and why her rage towards Luffy will settle down.

    I don't plan on Luffy defeating her. Not this arc anyway.
    I know you don't. I don't either. But I don't think Luffy should ever beat her at all. Let the Marines have the win so they can finally some credibility to their competence under Akainu's new leadership post-timeskip.Why would she care if she thinks Urouge is dead?

    Fair enough I hadn't read that thing in a while. It still proves she can be sloppy in her revenges.
    Personally, I think it's just Oda being Oda with off-paneled events. He can get away with not explaining any specific details with events that occurred over the timeskip. I would legitimately not be surprised if we never find out exactly how Bonney was able to escape from the World Government.

    Because she isn't instant death to whoever is causing her trouble. She doesn't mess around in her territory but once out it is a much smoother ride which mean that the strawhats won't be instantly ded once they have escape.
    Which probably means the circumstances of that event aren't as major as they are with the Straw Hats. Not that makes it any less likely for Big Mom to stop hating them. I don't really see how this helps your argument though because it only adds to how "fair" Big Mom can be, which is why peace being made between her and Luffy is so likely compared to past arc antagonists.

    I thought the meaning of my sentence was clear. Oda wanting tension that will last beyond is exactly what I'm expecting.
    But there's no need for more tension from Big Mom when they're about to make war with Kaido. Her story can at least mostly wrap up here. Nothing else can be added to the tension that hasn't already been present. And I don't mean that tension can't still be kept, it's just that we've already hit the ceiling with this arc. I say we should put it down while ripe before it's diluted, especially so we can make way for Blackbeard and the World Government starting to take center stage in the narrative after Wano Country.

    I'm not sure requiring help and being on the protagonist side qualify you as threat. Even less an impactful one.
    That's a superficial line of thinking. Villains can have flaws and shortcomings. That doesn't have to equate to them being pathetic. Rather, it can say more about how amazing and lucky the protagonist is.

    First battle with Crocodile, Evenly match with bazooka angel, Magellan first round.
    You mean that brief joke of a scuffle with Wiper? And both Crocodile and Magellan beat Luffy in the first round.

    Luffy got tired against Blueno but wathever
    Luffy was about to use Gear Third before Blueno got knocked out. He wasn't even pushed half as hard as he was against pigeon boy. I wouldn't call it an easy fight, but it still wasn't that much.

    What population hated the strawhats? Usually they are barely aware of them
    Kin'emon and Momo were immediately wary of the Straw Hats due to them being pirates. Fishman Island had prejudicial views on humans, and Shirley's prediction of Luffy destroying Fishman Island didn't help out at all. In Drum, everybody was wary of the Straw Hats at first because they came a while after Blackbeard attacked. The Shandians automatically labeled the Straw Hats as their enemies, and the Skypieans tried to sacrifice them to Enel. Orange Town thought the Straw Hats beat up the mayor when they left. The Straw Hats got framed for Iceberg getting shot, earning them the ire of Galley-La if not the whole city. Nami used to think all pirates were bad. Bitter feelings have been all over the place.

    The populations tend to have understandable reasons, sure. But it's always due to some sort of prejudice centered around them being pirates and/or some huge misunderstanding. That's what the built-up fear was on Zou if the Minks were to learn that they were in league with the samurai, since Jack attacked Zou to find Raizou. But Oda turned that trope on its head. And this late into the story, we'll probably see more twists like that as the arcs go by.

    You really are trying to make it seems like I am advocating for Luffy to fight Big Mom
    I mentioned the possibility of Luffy fighting/defeating Big Mom to bring up theories that people bring up overall. Not what you specifically said. Hence why I also brought up the theory people bring up of the Straw Hats escaping Totland RIGHT after that. Why would I accuse of supporting two theories that directly oppose each other? I just like to cover as many bases of a discussion as possible when I give feedback. I apologize if you feel I was straw manning your argument, that was never my intention.


    You insist that Robin was supposed to have killed someone rather than simply admit that like every other action she took prior she was undermining Crocodile. She gives a direct route to Alabasta, let Pell live, let Vivi follow her but she draws the line at fake dummies that don't even slow her. She even was a future crewmate. I think Oda knows wether or not he wants a future crewmate to kill an ally of the strawhats.
    What you propose makes perfect sense in-character. I never tried to deny that. But because Oda neglected to bring up if Robin spared Igaram, I'm not going to cover the execution of that and give it 100% validity as being all part of Robin's plan. Especially when there was no way for her to get Igaram off the ship before the explosion unless he was pushed off by her Devil Fruit. In which case, that should have been brought up. But it wasn't. So in terms of explicit details, she did try to kill him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Oda retconned it around Alabasta since that's where situations like Pell started, and thus, he got cold feet about having characters die in general. Just re-read Chapter 114 and notice how the Straw Hats bear no ill will towards Robin for killing Igaram. Only Vivi's the one who gives a damn about it. And Oda even writes in several gags during the conversation despite Robin technically killing their ally. So at that point of the story, no, I don't really think that Oda really had that much of a problem with letting murderers on the crew (Zoro was one until Alabasta). Even if they killed a minor ally. Killing people is in-character for Robin, at least before she joined the Straw Hats since she was an assassin on the run for years who betrayed many people. She even got coerced into shooting Iceberg.


    When all is said and done after typing all of this up, I acknowledge that I've said pretty much everything I can add to this discussion. I think we've both said our piece and grasp what the other is getting at. So I hope we can both agree to let this debate rest until new chapters arrive. Thank you for the feedback.


    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  4. #404

    Default Re: Chapter 852: The Germa Failure

    I hate doing this, but Chopper being in the story now, is mainly because hebwas out of it for two years, same with the rest. Not that interesting things can happen, but I wouldn't go so far as seeing it as clues for the climax.

    But, I hate giving out of story reasons to explain stuff in the story. That's why I avoided SBS' for so long. I'd rather come to these conclusions with in story clues.
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