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Thread: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

  1. #381

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Love: Arlong was a breath of fresh air following the villains of One Piece who had previously not cared one bit for their followers. Arlong loved his men like family and while Buggy eventually developed a very family-like relationship with his followers, Arlong was the first villain who didn't kill them for the sake of establishing dominance. He and his crew were basically family. However, he was also a cruel, sinister and conniving bastard. Which largely played into his racist worldview and I think there is a really interesting point being established in his introductory moment. In which he says he hates humans, but likes those who are money minded. But he proves towards the end of the arc that he doesn't care one bit to screw over Nami, for the sake of doing so and utilizing her abilities. Usually when there is a streetsmart, business oriented racist around in fiction, they usually allow their thirst for money come before their ideals.

    Arlong subverts that in a way that isn't ridicolously contrived or dumb. It also helps that Arlong as a villain was pretty well established as a ridicolously strong opponent. I remember pondering for several years after the arc ended, how Arlong would measure up against other villains. He's in every sense Hody's superior. Had I not known better, I would think Hody would be Oda basically lampshading how bad Arlong could have been.

    Loathe: I mean, nothing really. He's basically as well written a character can be as a shorter arc villain.

    Character: 4.5

    Design: 5. He has a really cool and memorable look.

  2. #382

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Strooger View Post
    Arlong subverts that in a way that isn't ridicolously contrived or dumb. It also helps that Arlong as a villain was pretty well established as a ridicolously strong opponent. I remember pondering for several years after the arc ended, how Arlong would measure up against other villains. He's in every sense Hody's superior. Had I not known better, I would think Hody would be Oda basically lampshading how bad Arlong could have been.
    I always thought that Arlong would trash all of the Baroque Works except Sir Crocodile and Daz...

  3. #383

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellamy_ View Post
    I always thought that Arlong would trash all of the Baroque Works except Sir Crocodile and Daz...
    I think Arlong vs Mr 2 is a match up worth pondering. Simply because we have no way of knowing whether Sanji was stronger than Arlong at that point or not. Although, powerscaling and hype would sort of indicate it. But yeah, I agree. Crocodile and Daz would wreck him. Whereas it was made pretty clear early on that mr 5 and mr 3 were never really any match for Zoro or Luffy, while Arlong was.

  4. #384
    Never gets anything done Zar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Strooger View Post
    I think Arlong vs Mr 2 is a match up worth pondering. Simply because we have no way of knowing whether Sanji was stronger than Arlong at that point or not. Although, powerscaling and hype would sort of indicate it. But yeah, I agree. Crocodile and Daz would wreck him. Whereas it was made pretty clear early on that mr 5 and mr 3 were never really any match for Zoro or Luffy, while Arlong was.
    Arlong vs Mr.2 makes me wonder how heat affects Fishmen. Would they dehydrate in Alabasta?

    But for that fight... I'm slightly leaning towards Arlong. Mostly because Mr.2 is a bit naive and Arlong would take advantage of that. And if it's near/on the sea it's definitely Arlong's win. But it'd be a close battle.

  5. #385

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Well agility and Speed wise Mr. 2 would have a clear advantage over Arlong but brute Strength is something what Arlong represents the most and i had never the impression that Mr. 2 could tank that much...

  6. #386
    Never gets anything done Zar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Arlong's evaluation will be up later today

    The next character has bottomless hair

  7. #387
    Never gets anything done Zar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Love and Loathe #18
    Arlong







    Here's what you loved about Arlong
    1. Great Villain - Arlong was an excellent and memorable villain. He was a step above his predecessors, and even those who came after struggle to stand on his level.
    2. Fearsome - This guy is terrifying. He's insanely strong and intelligent, and efficient enough to put his plans into action. Throughout the entire arc you could feel his presence and the danger he represented. Oh, and he ruined Nami's life.
    3. Camaraderie - In stark contrast, he actually cares for his men. This made him unique among villains and gave us a glimpse into the discrimination between humans and fish-folk. It also provided a great contrast to Hody.
    4. Luffy vs Arlong - This was one guy you wanted to see get his ass kicked. Luffy vs Arlong was a great and immensely satisfying fight that still holds up today. A true classic moment of One Piece.
    Favorite Comment goes to Rocko 52
    "We knew right from the get-go that Arlong was on a different level. From Nami's reaction to his poster, to the true opening of the arc where Arlong bribing Nezumi & his cynical conversation with his men after, to his established dominion of the island. All these moments immediately establish his nature. He's menacing and powerful, but also calculating, intelligent, and money-hungry. His elaborate and indulgent headquarters display his confidence and ambition. He was the first villain who was a serious force & opposition. Buggy was an egotistical but jealous wannabe scraping by via assaulting middle-of-nowhere villages, Kuro was a tired old opportunistic tactician looking for a way out, Krieg was just returning from a crushing defeat on the Grand Line. All the others to some degree were already beaten down and no match for Luffy's drive and ambition. Along comes Arlong, a (fish)-man driven by hatred and powerlust. Unlike the others, he has a successful operation set-up to expand, he's not merely confident but with plans and means to back them. In a lot of ways Arlong feels like the first truly active villain. While the others all had goals, they were seriously lacking in either ambition or force to back up those dreams. We have our first villain who lives up to Luffy's force and is his first big obstacle. Just the set-up sells this whole battle as a clash of ideals and ambitions, something Oda had always alluded to early on."


    Here's what you loathed about Arlong
    1. Shallow - Arlong is a great character, but only because of those around him. On his own there isn't much to him.
    Favorite Comment goes to Lucky Dragon
    "The strength of his character lies in what he's able to bring out in others. He doesn't actually need to be present in the story to make use of him in that way. As a character himself he's a shallow one trick pony"

    With 7 votes, Arlong got:
    Character/Actions:
    4.14
    Design: 4.29

    ~~ RANKINGS: Character ~~
    1. Galdino (4.42)
    2. Kureha (4.29)
    3. Arlong (4.14 - 7 votes)
    4. Rosinante (4.13)
    5. Zoro (4.11)
    6. Wanze (3.87 - 6 votes) - 0.09
    7. Jabra (3.78)
    8. Carue (3.75)
    9. Smoker (3.71)
    10. Robin (3.54)
    11. Gecko Moria (3.21 - 12 votes)
    12. Caesar (3.10)
    13. Conis (2.56)
    14. Bellamy (2.50)
    15. Ohm (2.32)
    16. Alvida (1.94)
    17. Vander Decken IX (1.50 - 9 votes)
    ~~ RANKINGS: Design ~~
    1. Rosinante (4.44)
    2. Arlong (4.29 - 7 votes) TIE!
    3. Kureha (4.29) TIE!
    4. Caesar (4.28)
    5. Jabra (4.07)
    6. Carue (3.90)
    7. Galdino (3.88)
    8. Gecko Moria (3.75 - 12 votes)
    9. Smoker (3.73)
    10. Wanze (3.69 - 8 Votes) - 0.02
    11. Zoro (3.40)
    12. Robin (3.35)
    13. Vander Decken IX (3.00 - 9 votes)
    14. Alvida (2.89)
    15. Conis (2.63)
    16. Ohm (2.59)
    17. Bellamy (2.30)


    And with that, let's present the 19th Character!
    I bet nobody anticipated it'd be Ivankov... NOT!


    Ivankov

    To get the whole picture, please tell us the following:

    What are the things that you love about Ivankov?
    What are the things that you loathe about Ivankov?

    At the end please give Ivankov two ratings:

    One for his character & actions in the story.
    One for his look & design.

    These must be between 1 and 5, with 5 being the highest (.5's are acceptable - ex. 1.5 or 4.5).

    This analysis will be open for the next 72 hours.

    Missed the previous character? You can still comment on them and the points will be counted. But only the previous character.

    Enjoy!

  8. #388

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I'll just sneak Arlong in here...

    Love:
    I agree with most of the previous comments.

    He is an overall fantastic villain. Definitely the best pre-Crocodile. His role in Nami's backstory, his fight with Luffy, his underhanded tactics, his crew and the relationship he has with them, and him being so easily hateable all contribute to an overall memorable character.

    His role in the Fisher Tiger flashback is well done. It expands on his relationship with his fishmen allies and ties him in to the story of Fishman Island without trying to redeem his character or contradicting the fact that he was only ever a big fish in a small pond.

    Arlong's design is fantastic. His Hawaiian shirt, fedora, jagged nose, and prominent teeth all make him stand out even among other fishmen. Even in the Fisher Tiger flashback with the more identifiable crew of fishmen, he still stands out.

    Loathe:
    As was mentioned by others, his relationship with Sharly could have used some elaboration in story.

    Other nitpicks:
    He has a sawtooth sword and he only pulls it out at the end of the fight? That's disappointing.
    His shark darts, while providing some funny Luffy moments, always take the momentum out of the fight for me.
    Arlong's berserk mode feels kind of tacked on, as it only appears at the very end of the fight and doesn't go anywhere.

    Rating:
    Character: 4/5 - Arlong is not in the story nearly as long as most of the villains who appear later, yet he still manages to be a benchmark for villains throughout the series.

    Design: 4/5 - He stands out even compared to the other wacky looking fishmen who appear throughout the story.

  9. #389

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I did actually get Wanze in before the time limit, but here's the direct quote for ease;
    Spoiler:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki View Post

    Wanze
    Love
    Wanze is a pretty unique character. He sums up the absolute insanity that is One Piece's crazier cast members. Taken to a logical extreme, Wanze's abilities are outlandish, flashy and ridiculous. Creating a mecha armour out of ramen? Kind of crazy. He's infinitely more entertaining than he has any right to be considering he's at best a quirky miniboss and runs rings around fellow Sea Train guards Jerry, Nero and even T-bone.

    Wanze also provided a little more insight into Sanji's opinions on food and gave him a super rare opportunity to combine both his fighting skills and cooking skills into a single battle, and foreshadowed how the issue with Duval would be resolved.

    Wanze driving everyone crazy was hugely entertaining, and watching my three favourite Strawhats blow up at the annoying chef was crazily amusing.

    Loathe

    Like many already said; poison knife was pretty random, and unfortunately Wanze felt disconnected from the main events of the arc. However even then he's more entertaining than the many other additional characters the World Government had working for them during this arc outside the CP9.

    However being as wacky as he is, Wanze doesn't feel like a real person unlike many other comical characters such as Buggy, Usopp, Franky or even Foxy.

    Character: 3/5 I like wacky, but his role didn't have a big impact on the plot. The cooking battle was well worth a point on it's own however.
    Design: 3.5/5
    Wanze's design is a pretty unique look, and in nearly any other manga this would probably land him a perfect score from me, but with other unique designs that actually gel considerably better aesthetically such as Gecko Moria or Jinbei kicking about, Wanze falls a little short. His design may be a little TOO off beat to actually work quite right and he ends up looking a little wonky as a result.


    Arlong

    LoveFrom the very moment you meet Arlong you can feel the tremendous force of his character. His attempt on Genzo's life for simply owning a sword, the destruction he's caused on one of the island's villages, the way everyone cowers before him, and the way his crew brutally and cruelly kill off the villagers last hope in Commodore Purin Purin.

    Whilst Crocodile, Big Mom and more obviously Bege, have all since had gangster themes, Arlong feels like the original mafia boss. Supressing, subjugating, cutting shady deals, and killing off those who can no longer pay his protection money or pose any kind of potential threat or influence, every single thing about Arlong feels calculated and cruel, easily matching and surpassing the rest of the East Blue villains(at least to that point; Buggy's return was glorious). When he snaps though he quickly becomes one of the most ferocious opponents Luffy has ever met.

    However, Arlong isn't JUST a brute who can't be reasoned with. Unlike Krieg, Arlong is (to an extent) semi reasonable. Unlike the previous East Blue antagonists(again at that point; Buggy got better) he cares about his crew and treats them well. It's clear he cares about the lives of all of his crew as seen when he becomes enraged each time one of his crewmates is felled by those damn inferior humans.

    One thing I personally liked about Arlong was how he wasn't redeemed. Seems odd, but whilst Hachi was retroactively referred to as a nice guy in his crew, Arlong's actions, whilst revealed to have some understandable root to them in Tiger's death and Fishman racism from humans in general, Arlong is still not portrayed neccesarily in a positive light. It's worth noting that due to Tiger's death Arlong DID become MORE cold hearted, as previously he was the one to be the voice of reason to now nice guy Jinbei when he was going too far.

    The fight vs. Arlong is still one I feel holds up well today, and as Luffy finishes him off and brings Arlong Park down, Nami's tears and relief still have as much impact on me now as they did back then. It feels good.

    Whilst many consider Chopper and Robin's backstories some of the best, Nami's one thanks to Arlong stands up strongly still, and Arlong's brutal murder of Bell-Mere puts him above and beyond as an antagonist for me.

    Loathe
    Whilst Arlong recieved many a mention during Fishman Island, and even appeared in a Flashback, he himself has yet to return to the story in the present time. Personally I feel him not being carted off to Impel Down after reportedly being jailed was a missed opportunity, as seeing Arlong interact with Jinbei and Luffy again had some serious potential, and half the fun of that arc was seeing previous arc villains interact with one another. Would Arlong even want to ally himself with those inferior humans and his ex-sworn brother Jinbei?

    Hell if I know, but it would have been good to find out.

    A rather small complaint; Due to the short time we spend with Arlong, it would have been nice to see his strong bonds with Kuroobi, Chew and Hachi further delved into. I'm not sure if I want to totally commit to this as a Loathe though as it could have quite easily have pushed Arlong from irredeemable villain to sympathetic villain status.

    Character: 4/5
    Arlong's character type isn't the most complex, but he set the standard for villains in One Piece. Whilst many considered Crocodile or Eneru to be villains that raised the bar, I still feel like Arlong did an incredible job as an antagonist for the comparitively short time he was with us.

    Design: 4/5
    Like a muscular villainous fishman Usopp design wise. That shark nose, the bizarre style mix of hawaiian shirts and winter wear hats, that damn weapon which I still think is one of the coolest looking weapons in the series.


    ----------------------------------

    IVANKOV COMING SOON. I WILL CATCH UP!


  10. #390
    Never gets anything done Zar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Oh, so that was you! Then it got counted :)

    Redone Evaluation

    Love
    So first of all, his comedy. While his gags get a bit repetitive, he was still a joy to follow. He offered some good comedy while also being a powerhouse. The road into Impel Down was serious, but then on the way out we got this up-beat guy fighting strong guards with little problem - it helped sell the feeling of "everything's going to hell for Impel Down". And then seeing him run for his life from Magellan it once again proves how dangerous Magellan is (but not after giving him a fight!). My favorite funny moment would be in Marineford, when he winked the boat into the middle. And all those group shots and then there's his gigantic face in the background.

    His powers are interesting. Of course in reality it's not so easy to just take hormones and grow big or change gender, but for being a shonen I think it's okay to simplify it a bit.

    And this guy is a revolutionary? I expected them to be a bit more brooding like Dragon, but here we have the complete opposite. Iva was a great, unexpected proper introduction to the Revolutionaries.

    And he's got a connection with Crocodile. I want to know more!

    Loathe
    Iva has all the ingredients for a great character, yet he's forgettable. With all other characters I at least had some initial opinions, but with Iva I had to sit down a while and really think, what did this guy do and what did I feel about it? A major reason for this is that ultimately, Iva was a plot-driven character and like Tanuki said below, he's constantly up-staged. Throughout both Impel Down and Marineford he was basically Luffy's life support system. There to save him and to keep him going, and nothing else. And while these should be huge things, Bon's friendship and sacrifice outclassed him in Impel Down, and during Marineford Jinbei took the mantle of being Luffy's protector and sacrificing himself to save Luffy from Akainu. Iva really doesn't get as much credit as he should. Without him, Luffy would be dead.

    And despite introducing the revolutionaries, not even that feels very deep. I blame this on the revolutionaries simply not being important for Paradise, so you don't get the weight of who Ivankov is. Also he felt too weak to be the second-in-command.

    I'm not fond of how big of a coincidence he is. What would you know, there just so happens to be an escapee with the exact powers to heal Luffy and a minor army to get them out and with powers to keep Luffy going oh and he also knows Luffy's dad. It led to some great scenes but even for One Piece it felt a little forced.

    Despite having hormone powers his fighting arsenal is very, very small. Most of the time it was just variations of "Death Wink" which had nothing to do with his powers. Dude you can grow to twice your size, do something with that. Nope. *Wink*

    The fact that his female form and male form differs so much was disappointing.

    Character: 3.5 - He was very entertaining but was bound to the plot.

    Design: 3.5 - Ridiculous but it works well with his personality.
    Last edited by Zar; April 22nd, 2017 at 01:45 AM.

  11. #391

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Ivankov

    Love:
    He's pretty wacky. I did enjoy his gag of overacting and then revealing he's actually totally fine.

    His relationship with Inazuma, and his friendship with his fellow revolutionaries is nice and fun.

    His speech about not being the fabled Miracle Worker Bon boy thinks he is, is quite nice. He can't help those who don't have the will to live.

    Finally his interaction with Sanji made for some very entertaining moments just pretimeskip.

    Loathe
    Okay, now...I hate to say this, but of all the Impel Down gang, a gang who I adore btw, Ivankov was the only one who never struck a chord with me...I'll see if I can explain why.

    Turning that guy into a girl against his will was pretty damn creepy, and probably one of the more unforgivable things a protagonist character has done on screen.

    His power is unique, yes, but 'hormones' as a power is pretty abstract for One Piece. At times Ivankov feels like a Bleach character with his abilities being as ill defined as they are yet somehow still feeling comically overpowered. The ability to change boys to girls and vice versa is also sadly not used to help Luffy avoid further detection from Magellan and gang via rule 63, which is a bit of a missed opportunity. Honestly of all the wacky abilities shown in One Piece, Ivankov is one of the few I can't seem to wrap my head around no matter how hard I try.
    What does a Death Wink have to do with hormones-is it related to his devil fruit or just a combat choice? Why did he turn into a woman to fight Sadi? Are there any benefits for each for using his female form? Does his head increasing increase his Death Wink power or is it a side effect from using too many hormone powers? It's one of the few fruits I feel need a LOT of explaination, and it's also one of the few we didn't get much information on.

    Ivankov is somehow upstaged wherever he goes. He's by far one of Luffy's biggest and most useful allies during Impel Down and Marineford, but doesn't really get much spotlight outside of giving Luffy a quick hormone boost to keep him going or death winking him out of the way of a dangerous attack. Jinbei, Bon-Chan, Crocodile and even Mr. 3 get moments where they truly shine that I felt overshadowed Ivankov. Heck, SABO outshines him by suddenly revealing that HE is actually the second in command of the Revolutionaries and not Ivankov during Dressrosa. Honestly it's a shame.

    His surviving seemingly fatal attacks with the gag excuse of "I wore thick makeup" is something I also couldn't get through. One Piece characters as a whole are pretty indestuctable, and I could easily believe the healing hormone queen would survive through the use of his power without such a lampshaded gag. Fell flat for me, but that's more personal taste.

    Character: 3/5 - Fun, but heavily flawed to me. Powers are a little too abstract for me to get behind.

    Design: 4/5 - Wacky. Similar to Wanze, I'm not sure it blends well into a character design but he's one of the more unique and instantly recognisable characters.

  12. #392
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Sometimes I wish we could have Ivankov as the Straw Hat crew's doctor instead of Chopper these days.

    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  13. #393
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Sometimes I wish we could have Ivankov as the Straw Hat crew's doctor instead of Chopper these days.
    He can fit Wacky and she can also fit sexy.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  14. #394
    Never gets anything done Zar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Poor Ivankov. And I thought Wanze killed the thread... I'll give him an extension until tomorrow. Also:

    Two things are going on. One, we're coming up on our 20th character! Two, I'm having one of my exams next week.

    So for the next character we're doing a week long special. But I don't know what character you would prefer having extra time to analyze, so I'm giving you three choices!

    Spoiler:


    Voting is open until Ivankov's evaluation goes up. If there's a tie the winner will be decided with a dice roll.

    One vote per person.



  15. #395

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I vote Doflamingo.
    Spoiler:
    Original Stories:
    Hybrid
    Four Swords

  16. #396

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I vote Rebecca. And it's not because I want to trash her.

    I'll hopefully write something for Ivankov later tonight.


    Spoiler:

  17. #397

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I vote Doflamingo.
    Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.

  18. #398
    User of the Gumdrop Rifle Rocko52's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    I'd be up for Doffy or Vivi

  19. #399

    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Vote for vivi-chwan
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
    So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
    Spoiler:



  20. #400
    The least articulate MrBits's Avatar
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    Default Re: Love and Loathe 2: Return of the Analysis

    Ivankov


    Love:
    -Pretty fun design (male)
    -Manages to be surprisingly strong despite his appearence
    -FACE GROWTH HORMONES

    Loath:
    -I don't like the female design at all
    -His accent is a pain to read
    -I'm echoing everyone else here, but despite being a hormone using, high ranking Revolutionary, face growing, Dr. Frank N. Furter lookalike, Ivankov somehow feels weirdly forgettable. The only reason I'm even commenting is because he only has 2 other comments after all this time.

    Character: 2.5

    Design:
    Male 4
    Female 1.5
    Average 3.0

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