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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

  1. #3141
    Under The Bridge Ageless_Bum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan View Post
    I just don't agree with new form = relevancy logic thing that I keep seeing with every character. The actual characterization should matter, not the transformations.
    It's all about the hype that the vast majority of the fan base will feel. Something new = something interesting.

    This is not universally true. I believe that when Krillin did the whole power up while getting his confidence in Super, no one expected greatness of him. He is just to firmly placed in the gag character section.

    However among the stronger fighters, changes and/or power ups are what make the fans clamor for the particular character during that particular time. When these power ups still prove to be insufficient to defeat the antagonist, it either means another one is coming or the fight is about to end with the ass-pull maneuver. It has been the Dragonball MO pretty much since Z started.
    Life flows on. I'd just go with it if I were me.

  2. #3142

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    In detail, it's the logic of new coat of paint = visible change = relevancy

    That's a very surface thing and I don't agree with it. The biggest character development moments in DB didn't actually have new transformations or actually flashy moves behind them.

    I'd argue, Gohan's actual big character moment during the Cell arc was in the Time Chamber when he reflected about always having to be protected.

    He didn't actually "develop" with the SSJ2 or Ultimate transformations. In the first case he snapped and in the second case he became arrogant. It's like people like the surface "climatic" stuff the most or something. Nothing wrong with that really, either. It's why I appreciate what Super did with Gohan. His moments were tied to his character resolve this arc. Like, actual character resolve.

    Equally, Vegeta's biggest display of character development was in the Buu arc when he sacrificed himself to defeat Buu. Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformation is actually kinda shallow as far as character relevance goes. Piccolo's sacrifice to protect Gohan equally didn't have a transformation backing it and it still did have weight. Him fusing with Kami was a great bookend and showcase of selflessness to protect the Earth and actually did become with a power boost.

    Even with Future Trunks, his transformation was powerful, but not really all that character-changing? But then Future Trunks mostly has his relationship with Vegeta as development material. He's kinda static, but I like him so I'm okay with it.

    Goku has the most transformations and most of them are from training or specific character moments, not actual development.

    But having a new transformation is a general relevance signifier for people, kind of a safety net. Nobody cares that Krillin's initial motivation to get into martial arts was to impress girls, but at this point he cares about 18 because he loves her and wants to be strong to protect her and even has the job of a policeman to show how much less selfish he is. He also did seem to get a powerup from his resolve so that's another exception. Whether it was just sort of a final attack thing or actual powerup is unclear. Stuff like this is because the series overwhelming focus on the power level stuff starting with Z. This episode, the story framed Gohan in a very positive light even, but if it's no flashy transformation, it just doesn't "count". It's kind of a instinctive reaction that isn't always true.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 22nd, 2018 at 02:22 PM.

  3. #3143

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    If we get Vegetto again in a future arc will he combine forms and use the Super Saiyan Blue Kawaiioken x100?

    Set Art by Daily Rowlet

  4. #3144

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Why is Gohan still playing second fiddle? Did they never learn from Toriyama reducing him possibly being new main character to saiyamen and boring family man?


  5. #3145
    Under The Bridge Ageless_Bum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan View Post
    In detail, it's the logic of new coat of paint = visible change = relevancy

    That's a very surface thing and I don't agree with it. The biggest character development moments in DB didn't actually have new transformations or actually flashy moves behind them.

    I'd argue, Gohan's actual big character moment during the Cell arc was in the Time Chamber when he reflected about always having to be protected.

    He didn't actually "develop" with the SSJ2 or Ultimate transformations. In the first case he snapped and in the second case he became arrogant. It's like people like the surface "climatic" stuff the most or something. Nothing wrong with that really, either. It's why I appreciate what Super did with Gohan. His moments were tied to his character resolve this arc. Like, actual character resolve.

    Equally, Vegeta's biggest display of character development was in the Buu arc when he sacrificed himself to defeat Buu. Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformation is actually kinda shallow as far as character relevance goes. Piccolo's sacrifice to protect Gohan equally didn't have a transformation backing it and it still did have weight. Him fusing with Kami was a great bookend and showcase of selflessness to protect the Earth and actually did become with a power boost.

    Even with Future Trunks, his transformation was powerful, but not really all that character-changing? But then Future Trunks mostly has his relationship with Vegeta as development material. He's kinda static, but I like him so I'm okay with it.

    Goku has the most transformations and most of them are from training or specific character moments, not actual development.

    But having a new transformation is a general relevance signifier for people, kind of a safety net. Nobody cares that Krillin's initial motivation to get into martial arts was to impress girls, but at this point he cares about 18 because he loves her and wants to be strong to protect her and even has the job of a policeman to show how much less selfish he is. He also did seem to get a powerup from his resolve so that's another exception. Whether it was just sort of a final attack thing or actual powerup is unclear. Stuff like this is because the series overwhelming focus on the power level stuff starting with Z. This episode, the story framed Gohan in a very positive light even, but if it's no flashy transformation, it just doesn't "count". It's kind of a instinctive reaction that isn't always true.
    So the crux of it is that you are right. The largest character developments in the story have absolutely bupkis to do with power level. At the same time however, the vast majority of viewers to this show do not care about the development of the personality or character. They care about beams, punching, tanking hits, and speed (Almost in that order actually). I certainly can see what is compelling about the characters to the studied observer, but the sad truth of the matter is that if there was an episode were in nothing was said, but every second was fighting, beams, and power ups one after the other, it would likely be hailed as a fantastic episode. That is not a bad thing either. A lot of people watch dragon ball simply to see powerful people beat up powerful people.
    Life flows on. I'd just go with it if I were me.

  6. #3146

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    I do that too. The best action scenes are very good.

    My favorite episodes of the ToP arc are 84, 90, 95, 110, 116 and 118. Two of them (110, 116) are purely centered around cool action scenes, while the other four (84, 90, 95, 118) combine cool action scenes and character stuff.

    DB is best when it has a complete action scene to work with. I've always felt the weakest part of any given DB tournament is the prelims and some of the pretty short fights.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 22nd, 2018 at 04:24 PM.

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