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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

  1. #4601
    Under The Bridge Ageless_Bum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by kouch_lee View Post
    ...

    EDIT: Just realized there's a lot of preemptive, potentially undeserved bitching in here. Bottom line: I liked the chapter, I'm liking the arc overall, I'm scared for what's coming next. There, better.
    I think as long as you are not trying to say that this is a guarantee, but instead what you fear may happen, then airing your concerns is reasonable. To a couple of your concerns. I think they created two problems that had to be dealt with, but they did a bad job. First is that during the Buu Saga they really powered Gohan up too much. If memory servers what was originally said was that Gohan could still go Super Sayan while in his ultimate power up, but that he would have no need. In the end they made it so that Gohan seemingly no longer wants to go Super Sayan. Second is that they have given 17 a power up that gives him a similar issue. Given that he was just reintroduced, we do not know what they will do with him, but I am guess he will either have some manner of nerf, or he will be the trump card against Meerus, or he may be a battery to further power Meerus much like the Cell saga. Many possibilities.
    Life flows on. I'd just go with it if I were me.

  2. #4602

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Ageless_Bum View Post
    I think as long as you are not trying to say that this is a guarantee, but instead what you fear may happen, then airing your concerns is reasonable. To a couple of your concerns. I think they created two problems that had to be dealt with, but they did a bad job. First is that during the Buu Saga they really powered Gohan up too much. If memory servers what was originally said was that Gohan could still go Super Sayan while in his ultimate power up, but that he would have no need. In the end they made it so that Gohan seemingly no longer wants to go Super Sayan. Second is that they have given 17 a power up that gives him a similar issue. Given that he was just reintroduced, we do not know what they will do with him, but I am guess he will either have some manner of nerf, or he will be the trump card against Meerus, or he may be a battery to further power Meerus much like the Cell saga. Many possibilities.
    I feel they never know what to do with Gohan. They went SO FAR with the "he doesn't train so now he can't even go SS1 and base form Freeza near-kills him in a single hit" that when he went from that to "as strong as fused Kefla without needing SS anymore (again)" after training for 48 HOURS...you can't just help but think "ok, so next time he appears, what it'll be? he hasn't trained for two weeks so he's weak again? he's been training (as he said he'd do from now on) so now he's even stronger? none of the above?". It's just so inconsistent. And I just happen to like him so everytime he gets ridiculed just so Goku/Vegeta/┐Freeza? can look better, it kinda sucks.

    As for 17...yeah, as you say, they went too far with his power up, and he's clearly on Earth at the moment. The only excuse to leave him out is that he's not an altruist, and it's pretty clear right now his preference is going on a cruise with his family. Unless the planet is about to be 100% drained of his energy, I doubt he's gonna move a muscle. But if he does...then, yeah, he's an android, and almost as strong as a SSBlue. I'd be reaaaaally surprised if Toyotaro doesn't use him, specially considering he's become a massive fan favorite (or at least it seems that way). I'd be more or less ok with that, but Freeza has also become a wanted character, and I'm kinda tired of him suddenly becoming the de-facto "third in line". Plus he doesn't work as a reluctant ally. He just doesn't. But seeing as Moro is an intergalactic threat, I can see that as an excuse to make him reappear. "This is my universe, you asshole, I'm gonna kill you, and if that means teaming up with my nemesis(es) (again), then so be it!". But I seriously, seriously hope not.

  3. #4603

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Someone has to lop off Frieza's tail again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  4. #4604

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by kouch_lee View Post
    I feel they never know what to do with Gohan. They went SO FAR with the "he doesn't train so now he can't even go SS1 and base form Freeza near-kills him in a single hit" that when he went from that to "as strong as fused Kefla without needing SS anymore (again)" after training for 48 HOURS...you can't just help but think "ok, so next time he appears, what it'll be? he hasn't trained for two weeks so he's weak again? he's been training (as he said he'd do from now on) so now he's even stronger? none of the above?". It's just so inconsistent. And I just happen to like him so everytime he gets ridiculed just so Goku/Vegeta/┐Freeza? can look better, it kinda sucks.
    Gohan's the wild card. Just as he always has been.

  5. #4605

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I'd like some more badass Females, super's doing pretty good with Caulifla and Kale and those magical girls but we still need a few more

  6. #4606
    Under The Bridge Ageless_Bum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Since theoretically, 17 and 18 have the same potential being Androids, she should be able to be on par with where he is now. Not that she is, but seemingly she could be.
    Life flows on. I'd just go with it if I were me.

  7. #4607

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Watching this DBS marathon on Toonami really hammers home just how relentlessly boring Jiren was especially alongside the other Pride Troopers.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  8. #4608

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    As I watched random episodes of the tournament here and there in it's run on toonami, it was kinda really hard to watch all the lower universes get eliminated after seeing them try so hard and put everything they possibly could into it and still fall short to Goku and co. Would've been nicer if more of the universes had taken each other out and it hadn't just been Goku and co every single time. Then it just comes down to Pride Troopers vs. Goku and co and I could finally start rooting for them again

    Also, I don't think I'll ever get why Zeno isn't seen as the main villain here. Zeno is the one forcing them all to fight and the one erasing universes just cause he says they're not good enough anymore. What type of series makes a god-being like this and doesn't paint them as completely in the wrong and impossible to support? I would've thought the driving force for the series from here on would be to overcome the omni-king and get someone more reasonable in the position...or get him to change his way of thinking.

  9. #4609

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    There was a lot of speculation as it was going that it was going to turn around and turn out Omni-King (or at least one of them) or one of his angel assistants was evil and proceed from there... but nope.

    Just boring tournament. Where they're taking on Beerus level guys now and its not a huge deal. And then they meet Broly like a month later who is even stronger. And so on.
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  10. #4610

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Man, remember when Dragon Ball had a sense of whimsy and unpredictability and the feeling that there were actual stakes involved?

    Hmm, nah, must've been my imagination. Muscly men beating the hell out of each other is all that matters.

  11. #4611
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Man, remember when Dragon Ball had a sense of whimsy and unpredictability and the feeling that there were actual stakes involved?

    Hmm, nah, must've been my imagination. Muscly men beating the hell out of each other is all that matters.
    So, like......1989?

  12. #4612

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B. Decent View Post
    So, like......1989?
    Buu saga had plenty of whimsy and unpredictability while feeling like there were still stakes. Through to the end of the actual manga it kept its balance, though it did lose the whimsy for a chunk with with Frieza and Cell you certainly felt there were stakes and drama.

    Battle of the Gods was the last time it really had that feel. Notably, that's the last time Toriyama was *really* involved. Sure he's contributed some designs and arc notes since, but BotG you can feel his fingerprints all over it. Everything since then... not so much.

    Also Beerus going from what he was to what he is, is just... eh. Fine that he made friends with the group but just... eh.

    We had a freaking FORTY EPISODE tournament arc, FIFTY FIVE if you count the pre-tournament and recruiting episodes. The longest tournament in the series prior to that was the final Dragonball tourney against Piccollo, and that was only fifteen... while still having stakes and drama to it. You just never felt that during the ToP... at least partly because Goku was in the whole time so you knew he was going to pull that new powerup out of his ass before it was all said and done and he'd be the final winner.

    Slight twist that it was a tag team, but given half their guys were still in till the very end, well...
    Last edited by Robby; September 29th, 2019 at 12:01 AM.
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  13. #4613

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Buu saga had plenty of whimsy and unpredictability while feeling like there were still stakes. Through to the end of the actual manga it kept its balance, though it did lose the whimsy for a chunk with with Frieza and Cell you certainly felt there were stakes and drama.

    Battle of the Gods was the last time it really had that feel. Notably, that's the last time Toriyama was *really* involved. Sure he's contributed some designs and arc notes since, but BotG you can feel his fingerprints all over it. Everything since then... not so much.

    Also Beerus going from what he was to what he is, is just... eh. Fine that he made friends with the group but just... eh.

    We had a freaking FORTY EPISODE tournament arc, FIFTY FIVE if you count the pre-tournament and recruiting episodes. The longest tournament in the series prior to that was the final Dragonball tourney against Piccollo, and that was only fifteen... while still having stakes and drama to it. You just never felt that during the ToP... at least partly because Goku was in the whole time so you knew he was going to pull that new powerup out of his ass before it was all said and done and he'd be the final winner.

    Slight twist that it was a tag team, but given half their guys were still in till the very end, well...
    I think my problem with the 80 way TOP, is that there were hardly any worthwhile opponents in the grand scheme of things. Goku and CO was mopping up fighters left and right like they were literally nothing, without using their transformations to their fullest extent a lot of the time, and not because something prevented them from doing so(like is going on with the DBS manga currently) but because they simply choose not to use them for the most part. As well as the fact that universe 7 in the anime is dominating the entire tournament in terms of numbers, like, 10 episodes in, they have the most fighters of any universe, and that never changes. Universe 7, despite being our heroes, never feel like they are being particularly challenged a lot of the time, or could ever be hoped to be seen as the underdogs.

    Also, that arc was just a mess thematically, namely because although they touched on themes here and there, with the universal tragedy and all, we already know that our heroes will wish to revive them. Its just a kind of big dumb tournament until the last couple of episodes where Jiren does his whole backstory shit. There is no ideology of winning really focused upon, or focused upon strongly until the final confrontation, where its made clearly obvious.

  14. #4614

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I mean, what if the enemies really had all focused down the heroes at once and they lost all the humans in like, the second episode? And Piccollo and one of the androids right after?

    It would have sucked to see the B-list human characters get shafted like always, but that SHOULD have been the result of them being in a tournament of that scale. (Okay, maybe not the second episode but speed it up so they're out by the 10th, not the 35th) Suddenly their outnumbered from the getgo, the enemies are made to seem stronger, and it would be incredibly believeable when Frieza started betraying them. "Well our team is already whittled down, no point sticking with them"

    The *very* best option would have been to wipe Goku out early and leave the other 9 to hold it, but that was never going to happen. Though you could have done rule breaking shenanigans to eventually let Goku back in, or a black hole or... just do brackets instead of a free for all. Everyoen gets fights, no stakes, take out the usual suspects to win early... and then at the end have whoever the badguy was do bad things and require everyone to actually jump in and universes team up and stuff.

    Not just 50 episodes of waiting for Goku to do Ultra Instinct again.
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  15. #4615

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I like Jiren, he's a petulant man-child with a philosophy based on his experiences. It's really nice seeing his calm demeanor broken down by Gokuu throughout their fight until he's finally broken by basically being out-matched by Gokuu in #130 only to be reinvigorated in #131.
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  16. #4616

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I would've liked some unpredictability with how the tournament was going to play out, instead of "Goku and Jiren remain".

    Well....they SORT of threw a curve ball with Freeza contributing to the win i suppose.

  17. #4617

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Heck, they could've even had U7 lose the tournament. Like, maybe Goku's words/action softens Jiren's heart and he ends up being the one to wish the multiverse back.

  18. #4618

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    If Goku hadn't been assfucked in two previous tournaments (in addition to Jiren nor being something of as a self centered douche) on top of Beerus already humbling him that'd probably be a nice concept.
    Last edited by Green_vs_Red; September 29th, 2019 at 09:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  19. #4619

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I've always thought DB to be fairly stakeless and predictable.

    Saw the grandpa Gohan twist coming, saw the Roshi twist and Goku losing coming, I guess Krillin dying the first time was okay, but Super Saiyan was the most telegraphed and predictable thing ever. Nothing in the Red Ribbon or King Piccolo arc in general surprised me. Same goes for most Cell Saga and Buu Saga.

    I think the only time I was ever truly surprised was the beginning of the Cell arc - Future Trunks' identity and the Red Ribbon army coming back.

    Always been in it for the fairly solid character writing and good sense of humor (which unfortunately became less and less as the series went on), I like the shift to more comedic stuff in the Buu Saga, but how it treats most of the characters is just kind of a mess and much of it is my least favorite part of DB, fights with not very substantial character writing. I like the tonal direction, but not much else. As much as I generally don't like the more serious DB stuff, the Cell arc and Freeza arcs in contrast at least had some meaning in their fights. Vegeta's redemption is the only interesting thing to come out of the Buu Saga to me.

    The moment the DBs started to be able to revive characters and the rules related to them started changing/were able to be changed (and new DBs were introduced), the stakes basically dissappeared. You know on a meta level that the story can just come up with whatever excuse to use the DBs to fix any problem. It's always an expectation on the table. Even if they were to be removed completely, you'd still have the expectation that they'll just get them back and fix everything somehow. Low stakes is basically built in the DNA of the series.

    I've always been a defender of Super because I think it has a bunch of fun character stuff in there. I liked seeing 17 and 18 work together and interact throughout the ToP, I liked Freeza, 17 and Goku being the final ones standing, it's also now another one of the rare times DB has somewhat surprised me. I like Goku's "selfishness" because the reasoning behind is often that he sees good in the people he interacts with. Rather than just wanting a good fight, it's both his faith in the good in people and wanting a good fight (see: the Raditz fight, not wanting to stop the androids in the Cell Saga and now trusting Zeno won't do anything bad). The moment he bargains with Freeza and their interactions are great. I found Ribrianne and U2 and the U6 Saiyans really fun. I liked that Gohan stuck to his character arc all across the ToP. I liked the Roshi moment of him being inspired by Goku and Krillin. I liked all the two parters (Gohan, Krillin, Hit) and the slice of life stuff (Mr. Satan episode, Pan episode, Baseball episode, Arale episode).
    I'm even okay with Jiren. He had as good of a end his type of character could've had.

    Like, give me episodes of Cheelai, Lemo and Broly going on adventures or Jiren trying to be more social or Caulifla and Kale's street gang times or even a magical girl episode with Ribrianne and her group. There is personality in here.

    I see people trashing on Super, but every time I go back to stuff like the Kefla fight it just puts a smile on my face. I've seen people compare the ToP to the old Broly movie because it's all fighting, but the problem with the old Broly movie to me is that it's kind of soulless. Yeah, the ToP and new Broly is a lot of fighting, but I feel like there is at least some personality (and understandable motivations) in that fighting.

    Edit: Case in point, the Eng Dub of Super episode 130 aired this week and aside from the pretty animation, on another rewatch, I really did like how Goku was handled in that episode. It's just the right balanced writing for his character. Not this standard heroic character, but cares nontheless.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; October 2nd, 2019 at 02:40 AM.

  20. #4620

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly


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