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Thread: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

  1. #361

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    let's also not forget Sanji came up with the idea of damaging Maxim, and also, uuhm.. well he did something at Enies Lobby too, I just cant remember what it was.
    While Luffy was fighting Lucci and the crew fighting off the Marines on the bridge, Sanji snuck into the control room operating the Gate of Justice and smashed the controls to shut the gate while the SHs made their escape from Enies Lobby. Doing that trapped the Buster Call ships in the whirlpools.
    The face of a Straw Hat.

  2. #362

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I got the impression that Sanji-fans do not properly understand the character of Sanji at all.
    Sanji has literally never been interested in becoming stronger, if so, he's really strong, he is not, and should not be as strong as Zoro and Luffy, and thats because Sanji complements this lack of strength with brains!!.
    And we've seen this the entire series, while Zoro and Luffy overcome their rivals with pure strength, Sanji combines brains/strength
    Hachi and Arlong got Zoro and Luffy in bunch of trouble and they just went like dur dur, im stronger so I win, while Sanji had to figure out how to fool Kuroobi in order to defeat him afterwards.
    it pretty much happened the right same thing against the Baroque Works, Zoro and Luffy just kept slashing and punching till they won, while Sanji had to find an opening to Bon Clay's tricky ability.
    then again, the same goes to CP9, Zoro and Luffy going full shit against their opponents, while Sanji tricks Jabra into allowing him to give him an open kick with Diable Jambe.
    Once agaaain, Zoro and Luffy doing their barbarous fights against Ryuma and Moria, while Sanji finds his way into properly kicking an invisible man's butt.

    So it made sense for him to get his leg fractured/cracked by Vergo, or stomped by Doula Mongo, as long as his opponent is not an overwhelming monster with massive strength, Sanji's finding his way into defeating him.

    let's also not forget Sanji came up with the idea of damaging Maxim, and also, uuhm.. well he did something at Enies Lobby too, I just cant remember what it was.
    so rather than expecting Sanji to beat down someone like Katakuri who seems to be a massive threat to whoever he faces, I'd expect Sanji to fix things the way he's always been doing it, and this arc gives him more chances to show brains/culinary skills than strength tbh.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    uuh no.
    https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...20160306042418
    only slashing attacks coming from strong opponents hurt him.
    Just because a character is smart doesn't mean he should be weaker than 2 idiots as if it's unfair he can be both smart and strong. Look at Law as an example.

    Also he beat his opponents with brute strength he just had to outsmart them when he was seriously disadvantaged like kuroobi underwater was much stronger than on land, or mr 2 turning to Nami so he can't attack. As for wanting to become strong, of course he does or he wouldn't have trained in red leg style under Zeff and just focused on cooking, he wouldn't have his rivalry and compete with zoro if he didn't care about strength, same with his training in Okama island. Anyways I'm not saying he will beat katakuri, maybe in a future arc like elbaf, but the time now is to show his strength. We already know he is a good chef, and that he is smart, but the thing everyone wants to know is what can he do in the new world in terms of fighting when the first 2 opponents he faced he lost. He is supposed to fight against king/queen next arc even if it's a 2vs1 scenario, so what he's shown so far doesn't cut it as he couldn't scratch Duffy but needs to be able to significantly injure someone much stronger and durable.

  3. #363
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tenth Strawhat View Post
    While Luffy was fighting Lucci and the crew fighting off the Marines on the bridge, Sanji snuck into the control room operating the Gate of Justice and smashed the controls to shut the gate while the SHs made their escape from Enies Lobby. Doing that trapped the Buster Call ships in the whirlpools.

    yeaah that thing, he did that thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megaman View Post
    Just because a character is smart doesn't mean he should be weaker than 2 idiots as if it's unfair he can be both smart and strong. Look at Law as an example.

    Also he beat his opponents with brute strength he just had to outsmart them when he was seriously disadvantaged like kuroobi underwater was much stronger than on land, or mr 2 turning to Nami so he can't attack. As for wanting to become strong, of course he does or he wouldn't have trained in red leg style under Zeff and just focused on cooking, he wouldn't have his rivalry and compete with zoro if he didn't care about strength, same with his training in Okama island. Anyways I'm not saying he will beat katakuri, maybe in a future arc like elbaf, but the time now is to show his strength. We already know he is a good chef, and that he is smart, but the thing everyone wants to know is what can he do in the new world in terms of fighting when the first 2 opponents he faced he lost. He is supposed to fight against king/queen next arc even if it's a 2vs1 scenario, so what he's shown so far doesn't cut it as he couldn't scratch Duffy but needs to be able to significantly injure someone much stronger and durable.
    Zoro and Luffy have been saying and being fully interested in becoming stronger, while Sanji has never ever ever said anything close to the matter.
    I also think being trained by Zeff was just part of his cooking training and not a prior to him, as well as being trained on Okama island was a must do if can't be helped, while progressing arc by arc without even wanting to. that's why it makes sense for Zoro and Luffy to be the strongest ones, since that's their priority and can't think of anything else besides eating and sleeping of course. as for Sanji, I don't really expect him to ever beat someone like Mihawk tbh.

    besides, I really really do not understand what seems to be wrong with Sanji not being as strong as Zoro and Luffy.... if someone could explain this to me I'd appreciate it.
    Last edited by Monquito; April 14th, 2017 at 12:27 PM.








  4. #364

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by blackout View Post
    Lol that doesn't mean anything, It's been made pretty clear that Luffy is still vulnerable to slashing attacks even though he's still rubber it's blunt force attacks that don't do anything.

    And Luffy did KO him with his own strength, he made sure to bait cracker in order to take advantage of his hard crackers the force used to throw him a long distance was all Luffy if a wall had been right in front of him he'd have used that instead. The Luffy disrespect in this forum is ridiculous.
    he blocked string attacks from doflamingo with g4's haki
    you know,the ones that slash the opponent?

    also,the tecnique luffy used was basically an haki hardened gom gom baloon,and the entire point of that tecnique is to reduce impact first and give back the kinetic force multiplied..or you are saying that cracker got defeated by luffy flexing his abdominal muscles or something XD?
    and even without conisdering that,he STILL needed nami's support (together with the homies) throughout the entire battle,while cracker fought alone

  5. #365

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    yeaah that thing, he did that thing.



    Zoro and Luffy have been saying and being fully interested in becoming stronger, while Sanji has never ever ever said anything close to the matter.
    I also think being trained by Zeff was just part of his cooking training and not a prior to him, as well as being trained on Okama island was a must do if can't be helped, while progressing arc by arc without even wanting to. that's why it makes sense for Zoro and Luffy to be the strongest ones, since that's their priority and can't think of anything else besides eating and sleeping of course. as for Sanji, I don't really expect him to ever beat someone like Mihawk tbh.
    The amount of training required to achieve the strength he did from Zeffs training is proof he wanted to become stronger. No one becomes a monster just by accident he had to train his ass off each day. He may not have a dream to defeat someone specifically but his entire character does focus on strength a lot, he constantly brings up wanting to "protect someone" and wanting to "save someone" nearly every arc and that requires strength to do that, not cooking skills and in most cases not intelligence either. Basically he wants to be a hero and he needs the strength to do that.
    He more or less will beat an admiral eos so that is enough.
    Last edited by Megaman; April 14th, 2017 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #366

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I got the impression that Sanji-fans do not properly understand the character of Sanji at all.
    Sanji has literally never been interested in becoming stronger, if so, he's really strong, he is not, and should not be as strong as Zoro and Luffy, and thats because Sanji complements this lack of strength with brains!!.
    And we've seen this the entire series, while Zoro and Luffy overcome their rivals with pure strength, Sanji combines brains/strength
    Hachi and Arlong got Zoro and Luffy in bunch of trouble and they just went like dur dur, im stronger so I win, while Sanji had to figure out how to fool Kuroobi in order to defeat him afterwards.
    it pretty much happened the right same thing against the Baroque Works, Zoro and Luffy just kept slashing and punching till they won, while Sanji had to find an opening to Bon Clay's tricky ability.
    then again, the same goes to CP9, Zoro and Luffy going full shit against their opponents, while Sanji tricks Jabra into allowing him to give him an open kick with Diable Jambe.
    Once agaaain, Zoro and Luffy doing their barbarous fights against Ryuma and Moria, while Sanji finds his way into properly kicking an invisible man's butt.

    So it made sense for him to get his leg fractured/cracked by Vergo, or stomped by Doula Mongo, as long as his opponent is not an overwhelming monster with massive strength, Sanji's finding his way into defeating him.

    let's also not forget Sanji came up with the idea of damaging Maxim, and also, uuhm.. well he did something at Enies Lobby too, I just cant remember what it was.
    so rather than expecting Sanji to beat down someone like Katakuri who seems to be a massive threat to whoever he faces, I'd expect Sanji to fix things the way he's always been doing it, and this arc gives him more chances to show brains/culinary skills than strength tbh.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    uuh no.
    https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...20160306042418
    only slashing attacks coming from strong opponents hurt him.
    Sanjis goal during his training in Okama kingdom was to learn Okama ways of cooking and to become many times stronger. He said so himself just before timeskip. Sanji aimed for strength during his training as well but thats not main and only point of his character like its with Zoro.

  7. #367

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    LOL after al these years I do not care anymore to discuss such shit.

    Goodnight everyone and have fun destroying the thread. Going to my little princess and wife

    PS
    Whitebeard, Big Mom and every other top tier in OP world has the goal of becoming the strongest. Remember that... Even Kaidou who simply wants to die somehow

  8. #368
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tenth Strawhat View Post
    For one, it would tarnish the reputation and threat level of the Yonkou in general.
    if they are supposed to be connected, Big mom's crew performance would have already tarnish the threat of a yonko.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  9. #369
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Megaman View Post
    The amount of training required to achieve the strength he did from Zeffs training is proof he wanted to become stronger. No one becomes a monster just by accident he had to train his ass off each day. He may not have a dream to defeat someone specifically but his entire character does focus on strength a lot, he constantly brings up wanting to "protect someone" and wanting to "save someone" nearly every arc and that requires strength to do that, not cooking skills and in most cases not intelligence either. Basically he wants to be a hero and he needs the strength to do that.
    He more or less will beat an admiral eos so that is enough.
    what?? what the.... and what if he doesn't??








  10. #370

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    what?? what the.... and what if he doesn't??
    Use your head and stop downplaying Sanji and derailing the thread. If the strawhats are to become a pirate king crew, then they need to be the strongest. Each yonkou has 3 top fighters that could hold their own against admirals and tons of fodder. How would the strawhats hold their own against them if they don't have people comparable in strength? Are you suggesting the crew will never surpass Rogers crew or the yonkou?

  11. #371
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    The last page of the chapter was fairly cool with all those Luffy.

    That Pudding twist is a bad one. If you are going to play how freaky she is to be you have to set up(maybe a backstory on what awfulness people think comes from the eye) or at the very least make it freaky to the reader(I doubt a freaky eye is impossible). There's the problem that Big Mom made a community were she actively promotes acceptance and accepting all races so it is weird that Pudding would be forced to hide in that environment.

    Also there also the problem that it is Pudding second twist and it coms from Sanji liking her appearance. If such a twist was planned it should have been the only one. A Pudding enjoying hurting others but touched by Sanji kindness until this particular moment totally shifts her over. Kind of like Gin in Baratie. But as it stands Pudding suddenly proved incapable of being her usual sadistic self due to Sanji having a boner for her no matter what. It kind of worked with viola since violet always was against Doffly and all Sanji did was earn his trust. Also it was the only twist on the character.

    Sanji dodging that jelly bean was cool.

    Don't mess with the Law if you don't have an Ace up your sleeve.

  12. #372
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Megaman View Post
    Use your head and stop downplaying Sanji and derailing the thread. If the strawhats are to become a pirate king crew, then they need to be the strongest. Each yonkou has 3 top fighters that could hold their own against admirals and tons of fodder. How would the strawhats hold their own against them if they don't have people comparable in strength? Are you suggesting the crew will never surpass Rogers crew or the yonkou?
    I'm not downplaying Sanji at all and I don't remember Roger's crew obliterating Sengoku, Garp, Zephyr and Kong.
    Also they left the Marine HQ behind already, how are they in their way to reach raftel, and again I repeat same question, what happens if Sanji doesn't defeat an admiral??








  13. #373

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Guys, you're thinking under the impression that progress has to be made now if the Straw Hats want to get stronger, and you think progress means that they have to rise up and conquer everything that gets thrown at them in an arc. That's not the case. We've had arcs where the Straw Hats didn't defeat the main baddies, and arcs where certain characters simply weren't strong enough to defeat certain people so they had to team up with others or others had to do it for them. Just because the Straw Hats are gonna get to the end of some measuring stick by the end of the series doesn't mean that they have to move along that stick in the way that you think. There are other ways for them to get stronger.

    Personally, I don't think Sanji can or will defeat Katakuri. I'm not going to throw some bullshit math in there because what would be the point. Just a gut feeling I have. I have stronger feelings against Luffy taking down Big Mom, but don't feel particularly inclined to share those right now. There are simply too many people on BM's side for 1v1 scenarios.

    Also, please remember that the plan is, right now, going very smoothly. Luffy is currently out there to provide a distraction, not engage in a 1v1 battle. Right now, it's all business.

    Spoiler:

  14. #374

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    I know there arw plenty of reservations from people here about what oda did soo I copied some responses from elsewhere and if anyone wants to argue them I am game (still havent heard count mario's opinions which im interested in)

    I will say the build up could have definitely been less subtle though

    1. Pudding wasnt even that deep of a character and was pretty 2-D, is her fleshing out her character beyond her just being sadistic not worth having a grey female damaged antagonist with room to develop?

    Imagine being told you're a freak from the moment you were born. Imagine the isolation, the depression, the rage. Imagine all the lies you have to tell not only others but more importantly yourself in order to keep yourself sane. Imagine what kind of a facade you have to build up in order to protect yourself from reality. How do you think you would react if, for the first time in your life, someone looked at you with sincere eyes and accepted you as who you are? At the end of the day, unless you're a Vinsmoke, you do have feelings, even if you've done your best to bury them deep down inside. At some point this facade has to crack. And if anything, you have to suspend disbelief to assume that Pudding is fundamentally evil (or fundamentally good). She's a flawed character, like every character in One Piece. What you're essentially doing is complaining that Pudding isn't a flat, evil-for-the-luls type of character. I'm sorry, but not even Batman's Joker is as 2-dimensional as you wanted Pudding to be. I for one am glad it turned out like this. It's consistent with the tropes and themes of the story and it gives more depth to her character.



    2.The turn isnt suddenly happening and oda has the nuance to portray things like this with how Gin said he wouldnt fight sanji then beat his ass before not killing him again.

    Exactly this. It's not even like she did a sudden heel-face-turn or anything. She might in the future, we'll have to see, but atm all she's doing is freaking out because she has literally no idea how to process this. Something I mentioned in the chapter discussion but bears repeating: not only was she was so certain that he would be repulsed by her eye that she made it the trigger for a hyper-important plan, Big Mom was willing to do that, too. I think that speaks volumes for how ingrained her self-loathing is and how central Big Mom is to her psyche, the good and the bad.

    3. And most importantly why she hated sanji in the 1st place

    Yeah, I completely agree, OP. This has been meticulously planned and integrated into her character behaviour from the beginning.The way she was raised and treated is also why she hated Sanji so much. She saw that he has fallen for her on the first sight, but he only saw her fake mask that she had to create because of her family. In her mind there was no way he wouldn't be repulsed once he sees her third eye, because there hasn't been anyone like that in her life so far. So his affection felt fake, like a mockery.
    Then when Sanji peeled off his mask to reveal his ugly, beaten up face to Pudding and shared his story, that must have felt so infuriating and confusing for her. Because her whole life she was told to hide her own ugliness, and has only met with disgust from those who saw her real face. She must have lost any hope of trusting anyone, so she took Sanji trusting her as a sign of weakness.
    No wonder that soon after she ended up revealing her third eye to Reiju and vented mocking Sanji so hard. In retrospect, that show how conflicted and broken she really is.
    Ultimately, she's a complex character, with a lot of pent-up anger. Pudding is a product of Big Mom's obsessions and possessiveness, a ticking bomb that might be even more dangerous than Tamate box. So it's sad that there people take her reaction in this chapter in such simplistic way.
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
    So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
    H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
    Spoiler:



  15. #375

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I'm not downplaying Sanji at all and I don't remember Roger's crew obliterating Sengoku, Garp, Zephyr and Kong.
    Also they left the Marine HQ behind already, how are they in their way to reach raftel, and again I repeat same question, what happens if Sanji doesn't defeat an admiral??
    OK, if you seriously don't think Sanji will be admiral/ yonkou commander level near the end of the series, then you obviously have not been paying attention to this manga. You must be trolling. Luffy will be the Pirate King. Zoro will be Yonkou level/ shanks level/ strongest swordsman in the world. Sanji will at least be on the same level or one notch below. So yes that is Yonkou commander level/ admiral level.

    Hell, he isn't that far from it now actually. A tier below.
    yeah im here

  16. #376
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by dlo62282 View Post
    OK, if you seriously don't think Sanji will be admiral/ yonkou commander level near the end of the series, then you obviously have not been paying attention to this manga. You must be trolling. Luffy will be the Pirate King. Zoro will be Yonkou level/ shanks level/ strongest swordsman in the world. Sanji will at least be on the same level or one notch below. So yes that is Yonkou commander level/ admiral level.

    Hell, he isn't that far from it now actually. A tier below.
    yonkou commander level?? aah you must be talking about the yonkou commander who got killed by an admiral and the other yonkou commander who got his arm ripped by another admiral, got it.

    you haven't answered my question btw.








  17. #377

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    The people writing the longest posts get the most things wrong. Quit underestimating Luffy, quit underestimating Sanji, and quit thinking we have time to revisit Big Mom for a more overwhelming defeat. She is going to lose Yonkou status by the time this arc is over.
    Yeah, too many people are concerned with Mom's image when she has already lost everything she needs to compete for Pirate King. But People are so concerned about Luffy's strength when the SH's have shown ALL series long that they magically get stronger to battle opponents. Point in case here is Sanji; having no business dodging Katakuri after losing to Judge. And add to the fact that Luffy has help, still got the Capone plan, Got Jinbei who fought Ace for ten days straight, The Vinsmokes will battle Mom after this betrayal, Brooke INJURED Mom's pivotal attacking instruments, he is a natural enemy to her, he will be a great factor in this shebang.

  18. #378

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    The people writing the longest posts get the most things wrong. Quit underestimating Luffy, quit underestimating Sanji, and quit thinking we have time to revisit Big Mom for a more overwhelming defeat. She is going to lose Yonkou status by the time this arc is over.
    I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said!

  19. #379

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Didn't Sanji said it he would make the Marines fear him the most?

    Spoiler:

  20. #380
    Slim Shady is my lady Medical Orbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Kishido View Post
    PS
    Whitebeard, Big Mom and every other top tier in OP world has the goal of becoming the strongest. Remember that... Even Kaidou who simply wants to die somehow
    Whitebeard wasn't interested in being the strongest. He just wanted a family.
    I accept Jesus Burgess as my Lord and Savior

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