I'm glad we cleared that up and agree on Nami and Robin at least for a big part of the series being great characters (and, dare I say it, great female role models). I thought you were talking about them with regards to the whole series, that's why I couldn't just let that go And you make a very good point that Oda's handling of female characters shifted after Enies Lobby (to which degree is up to debate). Most of the strongest Nami and Robin scenes I can think of happened before Thriller Bark. I don't think he has completely dropped the ball on their characters (Nami in particular had some very nice moments in her interactions with Jinbei on Fishman Islands, and I thought her relationship with the children on Punk Hazard was also pretty sweet - I loved that little moment at the end of the arc when she thinks about Bellmere, that was a nice touch), but things could and should be better. And yeah, I agree that Nami's own experiences and their similarity to Sanjis actions should have been brought up, I found that a bit disappointing too. I think I said before that I'm not quite satisfied with Nami this arc. Chopper and Brook alreadyhad some great moments but she has been a little lackluster. Oda did introduce a new weapon for her, so maybe she'll get into the action soon *crosses fingers*Originally Posted by Kylor
Valid point about Hancock. I'm glad you see what I mean with Shirahoshi, I started to appreciate her character a lot more re-reading the arc. Also, Otohime is a really great female character.Eh, I still take issue with Hancock going through such a huge character change after spending like, five minutes with Luffy. I get that she still retained her old personality to an extent, but its also true that her lovesickness suddenly became the driving force with her character. In a way, it really seems to mirror what Oda's doing with Pudding. As for Shirahoshi, yeah I can see where you're coming from there, as her own she's really not that bad since at least Oda seemed to be making a point with her. It might have just been how close her arc was to Rebecca's that retroactively soured her for me.
Good points, good points all around, I can't disagree with your assessment of Reiju. This has been a very nice discussion and thank you for being so civil about this. I know this can be a hot topic for some people. Now I actually really hope that you'll decide to keep reading OP, as it would be a shame to lose you as a member of this forum. God knows this section in particular can use people that are actually articulate and polite, lol.Sure, but his crying was supplementary to his hesitation to kill Sanji, not his reason for it, which is where the difference lies for me. Crying is this tricky thing in storytelling, where it can be really effective if paired with other strong actions or emotions, but just crying on its own it can actually cheapen a scene or make a character seem weaker. For example, Pudding. And it's true, maybe Pudding will turn out better than I thought, and certainly I still hope she does, but my point is, we've gone through this exact same nonsense so often at this point now that I'm really sure I know where this is going. And even if my lack of faith in Oda as an author was misplaced and I'm proven wrong, I'd still argue that this chapter was a huge misstep.
I really, really like both Big Mom and Carrot so far. No problems with them whatsoever. Reiju, I'm a bit more 'meh' about, and I think that, at this point, the one single girl in the Germa royalty being the Good Sibling is, well... it's really expected, let me leave it at that. As for Smoothie and Lady Amande, I haven't seen enough from them to really make a call one way or another. Honestly, for the most part Whole Cake Island has been really solid as an arc goes, I have no problem with conceding that. It's the fact that, in spite of the good points, I'm still so bothered by the bad stuff, that's leading to this conclusion for me.
Yeeeaaaahhh but you know what I mean, that barely counts. I mean, Hammond was pretty much a glorified minor underling. It wouldn't have hurt Oda to create two more leaders of the New Fishman pirates for Nami and Robin to fight just like everybody else.Originally Posted by Vectorkov
Nami still is my favorite Strawhat overall. I do wish Oda would give both of them more to do, though. Oh well, who knows what tomorrows chapter will bringI definitely agree here. For me, Nami and Robin being the two main women in the series and being such strong characters helps to overshadow the less than stellar female characters...
Anything by Sahara Mizu.
They probably have the best female character writing/portrayal i have ever seen.
Also put 2010 Nikita tv show on that list for essentially going far beyond the typical hollywood/western one-note "badass" female trope, and actually gives its female characters personalities, internal struggles, motivation, vulnerabilities, backstories that make you understand how they are, and what drives them, and what point they started from, and where they landed thus making them great role-model for young girls.
Just for an example: The second main character, Alex, is someone who was ,after a tragedy, sold into prostitution, and became a junkie, until she is found by the main character, and gets cleaned up. At first she is just "following" the main character, but slowly by slowly craves her way to go on her own journey of reclaiming the family business. And her "prostitution" backstory plot-thread isn't just there pointlessly. It plays a huge role in her character arc, and one point in the series, her character has a break down due survivors guilt (the only time i have seen this psychology-related topic come up in relation to prostitution in any american fictional work)from her sex-worker days. And in the end, becomes someone that is a total contrast from her beginning appearance, and decides to work on shutting down human trafficker's business.
Not only do the writers create these badass female characters, but goes beyond that trope, and ultimately provides actual characterization, and exploration of their psychology, and their overall character trajectory that puts things into context, and makes them wonderfully written, portrayed, and overall role-model type figures.
Last edited by HeartOfDarkness; April 19th, 2017 at 03:30 PM.
Heh, that disease sure makes for some interesting reading. Keep it up folks, the conversation so far has been a delight to follow
I'd even go so far as to defend the Kyros stuff as being more about father daughter dynamics. He trained her so she could defend herself, but what father wouldn't want to defend his daughter when she puts herself in harm's way?
What I can't defend is the Franky kissing scene in Dressrosa. That was downright awful and inexcusable. Just pick your battles better. If you wanted to stop reading on these grounds, that was the time. Not now.
Better to have developed Pudding than leave her as a 100% evil villain with no reason for being evil. Even with Doglamingo, Oda shows that your circumstances are what makes you who you are. This held true for Pudding as well.
I don't think the pudding twist was sexist at all.
Last edited by Zephray; April 21st, 2017 at 11:33 AM.
Now I would please like for everyone to behold my next multi-volume novel series of a post, which will be titled, "It's absolutely understandable if you don't want to read everything I wrote, because there's a lot, but if you're going to try and tell me why I'm wrong, you probably really should." Seriously, you guys. You're really just wasting more time this way.
And certainly, it didn't completely derail an already established villain for Oda to make one of his questionable points about women, which is absolutely what happened in this chapter.
Well fine, except we've had plenty of villains so far who clearly have reasons and motivations for their actions (Arlong, Doflamingo, maybe Crocodile) without having them collapse into hysterics as soon as those reasons are made clear. And more importantly, those male villains are still very much held accountable for their own actions as rational thinking adults, which they are. With Pudding, even though her villainy is absolutely on the same level as her male counterparts, the implication is that we're supposed to forgive her for that, because she's a woman and was mistreated and just doesn't know any better, okay?Better to have developed Pudding than leave her as a 100% evil villain with no reason for being evil. Even with Doglamingo, Oda shows that your circumstances are what makes you who you are. This held true for Pudding as well.
I don't think the pudding twist was sexist at all.
I mean sure, Doflamingo had pretty good reason for turning out the way he did, but if Dressrosa ended with Luffy complimenting his pretty coat and making him immediately collapse into a pool of his own tears, well, you'd think that was kinda strange, right? So why doesn't the same go for Pudding?
TL;DR: Sure, what triggers me is bad writing, but only because bad writing's the only thing that triggers me.
(and for what it's worth, i think i've decided to stick with the manga for a few more chapters. i'm still really disappointed with the series as of late, but discussing it is fun enough to keep me around a bit longer. i'm still very much on the edge, though.)
You guys are still here? This week's chapter has been out for 2 days now. Go away.
Last edited by KageKageKing; April 22nd, 2017 at 07:04 AM.
Vivi is a whiny, weak, beach, princess, "empowered" archetype. I'll pass. I really loved the alabasta arch with Vivi being the single exception.
Not letting Vivi join the crew was the greatest decision ever made by Oda.
Drop the series already. There are a lot of material out there that may be more suitable for your principles.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)