+ Reply to Thread
Page 30 of 30 FirstFirst ... 20 28 29 30
Results 581 to 595 of 595

Thread: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

  1. #581

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Riddler View Post
    I was certainly disappointed that Robin and Nami didn't get any 1 vs. 1 fights on Fishman Island like the rest of the crew
    Robin had a 1v1... it was just over in less than a minute because she completely outclassed Hammond. She really needs some better opponents though... even Yama wasn't all that to her after he pissed her off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riddler View Post
    Now if you aren't talking about being physically strong, but about being a strong, active characters, then I think you judge at least half of the characters you list very unfairly, especially Nami and Robin. If you are not talking about getting fights, then how exactly are these two characters weak, inactive people that always cry and need to be saved? How many times have Nami and Robin even cried in the series, not counting their childhood flashbacks? I can think of about four or five times for Nami and once for Robin, in Enies Lobby. And as I asked you before, I wonder how you can hold these moments against these characters? What Arlong Park did for Nami and Enies Lobby did for Robin was also to show us, the readers, how freaking strong these two characters were. Nami was strong enough to decide, as an eight year old girl, to work for her mothers murderer, laugh in his face, risk her live to save her village, without accepting help, for ten years. Robin saw everybody she ever cared about die and was alone for 20 years. And yet both of them endured this completely on their own, until their absolute breaking point, until they finally decided to let their friends help them. This is not Oda saying "Women are so weak and need to be saved", that is him saying "Look at Nami and Robin and how strong they have been all their life". So, hopefully you can see how this confused me a little and I hope you can maybe clarify how exactly Oda lied to us in regard to Nami and Robin being strong female characters.
    I definitely agree here. For me, Nami and Robin being the two main women in the series and being such strong characters helps to overshadow the less than stellar female characters...

  2. #582
    Discovered Stowaway Riddler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Shobu Yoruichi View Post
    What the fuck? Why's everybody writing so much?? D:

    .
    It's Count Mario disease

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor
    Right! Those were all really good moments, and Nami's character arc during Arlong Park has been one of my favorite things about One Piece. I absolutely agree, that seeing them struggle and drag themselves through those hardships strengthened them as characters, and their asking for help came as moments of development rather than hurting them. My problems with Oda's handling of his female cast comes mainly from the material after Enies Lobby, which is really where I think the shift lies. Mostly, since then, neither character has done anything all that impressive. Robin's been mostly a background character after her arc closed, and I've already mentioned how much of a problem I've had with Nami this arc. Namely, because of her development in Arlong Park, she should have been able to understand and emphasize with Sanji more than any other character, but we've had no signs of that at all so far. Instead, we've just got... more crying, and not much else. Now, it could be that this is more a problem with Oda having to juggle too many characters at once, in which case I would understand, but in the context of everything else, I can't help but be skeptical.
    I'm glad we cleared that up and agree on Nami and Robin at least for a big part of the series being great characters (and, dare I say it, great female role models). I thought you were talking about them with regards to the whole series, that's why I couldn't just let that go And you make a very good point that Oda's handling of female characters shifted after Enies Lobby (to which degree is up to debate). Most of the strongest Nami and Robin scenes I can think of happened before Thriller Bark. I don't think he has completely dropped the ball on their characters (Nami in particular had some very nice moments in her interactions with Jinbei on Fishman Islands, and I thought her relationship with the children on Punk Hazard was also pretty sweet - I loved that little moment at the end of the arc when she thinks about Bellmere, that was a nice touch), but things could and should be better. And yeah, I agree that Nami's own experiences and their similarity to Sanjis actions should have been brought up, I found that a bit disappointing too. I think I said before that I'm not quite satisfied with Nami this arc. Chopper and Brook alreadyhad some great moments but she has been a little lackluster. Oda did introduce a new weapon for her, so maybe she'll get into the action soon *crosses fingers*

    Eh, I still take issue with Hancock going through such a huge character change after spending like, five minutes with Luffy. I get that she still retained her old personality to an extent, but its also true that her lovesickness suddenly became the driving force with her character. In a way, it really seems to mirror what Oda's doing with Pudding. As for Shirahoshi, yeah I can see where you're coming from there, as her own she's really not that bad since at least Oda seemed to be making a point with her. It might have just been how close her arc was to Rebecca's that retroactively soured her for me.
    Valid point about Hancock. I'm glad you see what I mean with Shirahoshi, I started to appreciate her character a lot more re-reading the arc. Also, Otohime is a really great female character.

    Sure, but his crying was supplementary to his hesitation to kill Sanji, not his reason for it, which is where the difference lies for me. Crying is this tricky thing in storytelling, where it can be really effective if paired with other strong actions or emotions, but just crying on its own it can actually cheapen a scene or make a character seem weaker. For example, Pudding. And it's true, maybe Pudding will turn out better than I thought, and certainly I still hope she does, but my point is, we've gone through this exact same nonsense so often at this point now that I'm really sure I know where this is going. And even if my lack of faith in Oda as an author was misplaced and I'm proven wrong, I'd still argue that this chapter was a huge misstep.

    I really, really like both Big Mom and Carrot so far. No problems with them whatsoever. Reiju, I'm a bit more 'meh' about, and I think that, at this point, the one single girl in the Germa royalty being the Good Sibling is, well... it's really expected, let me leave it at that. As for Smoothie and Lady Amande, I haven't seen enough from them to really make a call one way or another. Honestly, for the most part Whole Cake Island has been really solid as an arc goes, I have no problem with conceding that. It's the fact that, in spite of the good points, I'm still so bothered by the bad stuff, that's leading to this conclusion for me.
    Good points, good points all around, I can't disagree with your assessment of Reiju. This has been a very nice discussion and thank you for being so civil about this. I know this can be a hot topic for some people. Now I actually really hope that you'll decide to keep reading OP, as it would be a shame to lose you as a member of this forum. God knows this section in particular can use people that are actually articulate and polite, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vectorkov
    Robin had a 1v1... it was just over in less than a minute because she completely outclassed Hammond. She really needs some better opponents though... even Yama wasn't all that to her after he pissed her off.
    Yeeeaaaahhh but you know what I mean, that barely counts. I mean, Hammond was pretty much a glorified minor underling. It wouldn't have hurt Oda to create two more leaders of the New Fishman pirates for Nami and Robin to fight just like everybody else.

    I definitely agree here. For me, Nami and Robin being the two main women in the series and being such strong characters helps to overshadow the less than stellar female characters...
    Nami still is my favorite Strawhat overall. I do wish Oda would give both of them more to do, though. Oh well, who knows what tomorrows chapter will bring

  3. #583

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I just love how these 'Oda is sexist' people can't even name a series where woman are how they think they should be. Just name one, from any genre, I'll wait.
    Anything by Hayao Miyazaki.

    Anything by Sahara Mizu.

    They probably have the best female character writing/portrayal i have ever seen.

    Also put 2010 Nikita tv show on that list for essentially going far beyond the typical hollywood/western one-note "badass" female trope, and actually gives its female characters personalities, internal struggles, motivation, vulnerabilities, backstories that make you understand how they are, and what drives them, and what point they started from, and where they landed thus making them great role-model for young girls.

    Just for an example: The second main character, Alex, is someone who was ,after a tragedy, sold into prostitution, and became a junkie, until she is found by the main character, and gets cleaned up. At first she is just "following" the main character, but slowly by slowly craves her way to go on her own journey of reclaiming the family business. And her "prostitution" backstory plot-thread isn't just there pointlessly. It plays a huge role in her character arc, and one point in the series, her character has a break down due survivors guilt (the only time i have seen this psychology-related topic come up in relation to prostitution in any american fictional work)from her sex-worker days. And in the end, becomes someone that is a total contrast from her beginning appearance, and decides to work on shutting down human trafficker's business.

    Not only do the writers create these badass female characters, but goes beyond that trope, and ultimately provides actual characterization, and exploration of their psychology, and their overall character trajectory that puts things into context, and makes them wonderfully written, portrayed, and overall role-model type figures.
    Last edited by HeartOfDarkness; April 19th, 2017 at 03:30 PM.

  4. #584
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Planet Zordoom

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Riddler View Post
    It's Count Mario disease

    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  5. #585

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Heh, that disease sure makes for some interesting reading. Keep it up folks, the conversation so far has been a delight to follow

  6. #586

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor View Post
    Well now, looks like I started a bit of a conversation! Hope you all noticed that I said I might drop the series based on this development... right? Riiiight?

    Anyways, there were a lot of people who felt inclined to respond to what I said, and I want to respond to you all individually, I really do. While I don't agree with your feelings, I absolutely think that they deserve answers, but alas, life has been a bit busy for me, so I'll have to just go over my responses to some of the more recurring points, and hope that's sufficient.

    First of all, when I speak of how Pudding's depiction in this arc is poor writing altogether, especially for what Oda says about women, I should clarify what counts as a good female character in my opinion. Short answer: Vivi. When I talk about "strong" characters, very seldom do I mean that in a literal sense. (sure, it would be NICE if the ladies got more honest-to-goodness fights, but that's another debate...) Mainly, what I'm looking for is agency. If a character is going to be in the story at all, they should have an active role in what's happening around them and especially what's happening to them, and if a writer is good, then their actions should tie directly in to their development and motivation. A lot of people tend to lump Vivi into the "crying One Piece Princess" mold, but what sets her apart from the characters that came after is that at no point did Vivi ever stop fighting. She instigated all the main actions in her subplot, was the main driving force of momentum for much of Alabasta, and even when the arc got more action-heavy and she was more relegated to a damsel-in-distress role, she never stopped doing things. Her tears were never because of weakness, nor were they there for Luffy or Koza or whoever to pity her. We, the readers who were experiencing Alabasta's struggle through her, were meant to empathize with her tears. By contrast, Pudding's moment here isn't about Pudding at all. It makes no sense with any motivation we've seen from her before or since. It's about Sanji.

    Now, the point about Gin is really interesting, and one that I've actually considered myself. In terms of a pure villain character who changed sides due to an act of kindness from a Straw Hat, he's certainly the closest point of comparison. However, there are a couple of key differences that seperate Gin's change of character from Pudding's. The first difference being, build-up. In Baratie, Sanji's whole arc until that point had been about his steadfast determination to feed the hungry. We had seen him go out of his way to do it, struggle to put food on Gin's plate, suffer consequences because of it, and still retain his convictions afterwards. On the other hand, we had seen Gin's coldheartedness beforehand, yes, but we had also seen signs of him changing already, and also got to see the mistreatment at the hands of Don Krieg. Gin's moment was the narrative payoff to all those steps, and thus, it was satisfying. The second factor is, again, agency. Gin's choice to spare Sanji's life, even at the cost of his own, was just that. A choice. He knew exactly what going against Krieg would mean for him, internally and externally, but he had to do it anyways. He wasn't falling into tears in a moment of weakness. He was taking a stand against an abusive captain for the first time in his life. There's a world of difference between that moment, and the one in this chapter.

    There's this concept in fiction, especially in older works, that "evil" women aren't actually evil by choice, but are corrupted in some way by external factors, and it's up to a man to change her. Whereas by contrast, men can have more choice and do wrong things because it is what they want to do. The implication in this chapter is that, since Pudding was bullied in the past, she's not really accountable for being manipulative or evil, and now that Sanji came and Didn't Say Mean Things at her, she'll revert to the naturally pure and innocent state of womanhood. That's... really, really bad, guys.

    As for the point that One Piece is a shonen manga... yeah, I have less to say about this one, if only because it's baffling to me that people see it as an acceptable excuse. Shonen manga (including One Piece) have managed to write compelling stories with three-dimensional, strong, compelling female characters, while still keeping them geared towards the male demographic, for a LOOOONG time now. At this point, the "shonen" label is really just about marketing more than it is about a story's themes, and the fact is, women, including young women, are seeing this too. It's simply part of human nature for people, particularly young people, to contextualize themselves through the stories they're taking in. Oda might not want to be writing for girls, but he is. Even if he wasn't, he's still helping shape a world in which girls will have to live alongside boys who have learned from One Piece. and the message Oda sends here is that women can do less than men, are weaker than men, have less agency in what happens to them, and if they don't cry and break down often enough, well, that's somehow just abnormal. There are a thousand ways Oda could have written this story without reverting to sending that message. And, just saying, anyone who still says that shonen manga needs to overemphasize the male cast to still be shonen, lost all rights to that claim from the moment The Promised Neverland started serialization.

    One point that I grappled with myself is how harsh I've been to Oda for this development (or rather, this development in the context of the character arcs that came before it) while also being rather forgiving towards works, mostly those from a few decades ago, that arguably do way worse. I mean, I'm a big fan of classic literature, you'd think I be used to this, right? Well, mostly, for me, if a story makes (what I with my current values sees as) a mistake, I tend to be more accepting if it's done out of ignorance, or shows some sign that the author is trying to do better, but for whatever reason just isn't there yet. We know from Oda's previous work on this very series that he can do better, and considering his position as a damn-near universally beloved author, he has a responsibility to be more thoughtful. Whether he means to be sending these messages or not, I can see it going either way at this point, but the fact is that he's sending them, and were I to keep reading the series after this, I would see myself as supporting these messages, and I do not wish to do that.

    And of course I know that Oda is entitled to write One Piece in any way he sees fit. I would never contest that. If the next chapter were to be a one long monologue by Luffy about how all girls have cooties and a woman's place is in the home, that would be 100% within Oda's rights as an author, and I would debate anyone who says otherwise for ask long as it takes. However, what he's not entitled to is my continued support as a reader. One Piece is a serialized work, and thus each installment is a product in of itself. I have, thus far, read and supported every installment until now, but I also have the freedom to not read any future installments if I don't want to. I am not, nor have I ever been, morally obligated to read your fantasy pirate comic. And just as I would never say that continuing to read it makes you any less of a person, I ask that you recognize that I don't want to read the manga anymore.

    I wish I could go even further in-depth about this, these topics are something that I could literally spend all day discussing, but oh golly look at this post already. If there's one last thing I would like to say is, I hope that this isn't being taken as some protest or moral crusade. It is not. I'm just kind of a fickle person, and seeing women being treated this way just makes me really uncomfortable, which I don't think is the feeling that Oda's intended to impart on his readers. There are still things that I really like about the current manga, but very few of them are the elements that made me a fan in the first place, and for a while now, there's been more that I haven't liked than things I have. That's all, honestly.
    TL;DR: "Triggering me is bad writing."

  7. #587
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shadow Aaron Island

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    "I might drop the series because I don't like XYZ."

    Bye!

    Next conversation please!

  8. #588

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    "I might drop the series because I don't like XYZ."

    Bye!

    Next conversation please!
    What is your favorite snack?

  9. #589

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor View Post
    So... hoo boy. Bit late to the thread (I read chapters based on the official Jump release, not the scans) so I can put down my actual thoughts here, but... okay... I'll just come out and say it...

    The treatment of women in One Piece has finally crossed the line for me now. I might drop the series.

    It's pretty clear at this point that Oda simply does not see women as being equal to men. There's no other way to look at it. If he respected women, he would not have written his characters this way. These views are not uncommon in Japan, I mean heck I know my own country has a long way to go, but considering Oda's status, and how much women in the manga industry are ignored or shut out for entirely arbitrary reasons, that he also shares this view is horrendous.

    Too often now, we're getting the same message, over and over again, in the series. Women are weak. Women can't deal with the same hardships men can. An "evil" woman just needs a man to come along and treat her kindly for her to see that she was wrong. Their role is to be a support, to need saving, to cry. We've seen this with Nami. With Rebecca. With Robin, Shirahoshi, Viola, Tashigi, Hancock, women we were promised would be strong, and each and every time, Oda has lied to his readers. I can't trust him as an author anymore. I just can't.

    Now, do I think he's TRYING to be hateful, or send a message to his female readers? Not necessarily, at least I'm not in a hurry to jump to that conclusion. I think he's just being lazy. It's pretty clear just from the storytelling in this arc, Dressrosa, Fishman Island, etc, that he's no longer putting the care or effort into the story that he did when One Piece was at its peak. He's been doing this a long time, and has gotten comfortable with coasting along themes and ideas he's used to. I'm not intrinsically upset by this, but I am disappointed. And his treatment of his female characters has suffered as well. He COULD have character writing on the same level that he had in East Blue, or the Water 7 saga. He just doesn't, because it's easy for him not to. He's already the best selling manga author ever. He has nothing left he needs to prove. It's clear his views have changed, and so have his standards. Fine, that's fine, that's his choice to make, and certainly there's nothing I can do to change them, nor am I going to judge those who do not see this as a fault.

    But see, here's what I can't stand. There are girls who read One Piece. Little girls. Girls the same age as my young nieces are seeing this, and Oda is directly telling them, "you are inferior, and this is the behavior that will make you acceptable as a woman." I can't accept that. This is outright wrong, on every level. Again, I can't do anything about this, nor can I help those that Oda is be hurting. But I can choose to not support this series, with my money, my views or my time. I'm done. I can't take this anymore. If not reading it is the only way I can take a stand. I won't read it.
    Crying means you're not strong? Every male character in op cries; sanji cried this arc and Luffy has cried a few times in the series. Even manly man Zoro cried during the Don Kreig arc. If you think that having a strong woman cry invalidates her strength, that's more of a problem with your outlook on femininity than it is with Oda. Everyone cries; its natural and normal in moments of intensity.

    I'd even go so far as to defend the Kyros stuff as being more about father daughter dynamics. He trained her so she could defend herself, but what father wouldn't want to defend his daughter when she puts herself in harm's way?

    What I can't defend is the Franky kissing scene in Dressrosa. That was downright awful and inexcusable. Just pick your battles better. If you wanted to stop reading on these grounds, that was the time. Not now.

    Better to have developed Pudding than leave her as a 100% evil villain with no reason for being evil. Even with Doglamingo, Oda shows that your circumstances are what makes you who you are. This held true for Pudding as well.

    I don't think the pudding twist was sexist at all.
    Last edited by Zephray; April 21st, 2017 at 11:33 AM.

  10. #590
    The villain eternal. Kylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Bellingham, WA

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Now I would please like for everyone to behold my next multi-volume novel series of a post, which will be titled, "It's absolutely understandable if you don't want to read everything I wrote, because there's a lot, but if you're going to try and tell me why I'm wrong, you probably really should." Seriously, you guys. You're really just wasting more time this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephray View Post
    What I can't defend is the Franky kissing scene in Dressrosa. That was downright awful and inexcusable. Just pick your battles better. If you wanted to stop reading on these grounds, that was the time. Not now.
    Weirdly enough... I actually didn't mind that chapter. Now, do I think it was necessarily a good way to handle that subject, no it wasn't, but I thought it was pretty clear that the intent of the joke was that the two giant Baby Men were acting like they were in a film noir.

    And certainly, it didn't completely derail an already established villain for Oda to make one of his questionable points about women, which is absolutely what happened in this chapter.

    Better to have developed Pudding than leave her as a 100% evil villain with no reason for being evil. Even with Doglamingo, Oda shows that your circumstances are what makes you who you are. This held true for Pudding as well.

    I don't think the pudding twist was sexist at all.
    Well fine, except we've had plenty of villains so far who clearly have reasons and motivations for their actions (Arlong, Doflamingo, maybe Crocodile) without having them collapse into hysterics as soon as those reasons are made clear. And more importantly, those male villains are still very much held accountable for their own actions as rational thinking adults, which they are. With Pudding, even though her villainy is absolutely on the same level as her male counterparts, the implication is that we're supposed to forgive her for that, because she's a woman and was mistreated and just doesn't know any better, okay?

    I mean sure, Doflamingo had pretty good reason for turning out the way he did, but if Dressrosa ended with Luffy complimenting his pretty coat and making him immediately collapse into a pool of his own tears, well, you'd think that was kinda strange, right? So why doesn't the same go for Pudding?

    TL;DR: Sure, what triggers me is bad writing, but only because bad writing's the only thing that triggers me.

    (and for what it's worth, i think i've decided to stick with the manga for a few more chapters. i'm still really disappointed with the series as of late, but discussing it is fun enough to keep me around a bit longer. i'm still very much on the edge, though.)

  11. #591

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by huehuehue View Post
    What is your favorite snack?
    Vanilla Pudding.

  12. #592
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Planet Zordoom

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime View Post
    Vanilla Pudding.
    I personally prefer savoring NTR Pudding in my spare time.

    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  13. #593

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones



    You guys are still here? This week's chapter has been out for 2 days now. Go away.
    Last edited by KageKageKing; April 22nd, 2017 at 07:04 AM.
    Spoiler:
    Original Stories:
    Hybrid
    Four Swords

  14. #594

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    I personally prefer savoring NTR Pudding in my spare time.
    Wonder if Oda like NTR Pudding as well.

  15. #595
    Whitebeard gundam! loud17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Country of despair, PHilippines

    Default Re: Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylor View Post
    Well now, looks like I started a bit of a conversation! Hope you all noticed that I said I might drop the series based on this development... right? Riiiight?

    Anyways, there were a lot of people who felt inclined to respond to what I said, and I want to respond to you all individually, I really do. While I don't agree with your feelings, I absolutely think that they deserve answers, but alas, life has been a bit busy for me, so I'll have to just go over my responses to some of the more recurring points, and hope that's sufficient.

    First of all, when I speak of how Pudding's depiction in this arc is poor writing altogether, especially for what Oda says about women, I should clarify what counts as a good female character in my opinion. Short answer: Vivi.
    I stopped reading when I saw "a good female character in my opinion. Short answer: Vivi.".
    Vivi is a whiny, weak, beach, princess, "empowered" archetype. I'll pass. I really loved the alabasta arch with Vivi being the single exception.
    Not letting Vivi join the crew was the greatest decision ever made by Oda.

    Drop the series already. There are a lot of material out there that may be more suitable for your principles.
    Last edited by loud17; April 24th, 2017 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Quoted wrong post.

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts