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Thread: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

  1. #441

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Only if it comes with a sandwich. If a woman is serving a man, she needs to do it right.
    But maybe smoothie is a little racist like her mom.



    Getting their feathers everywhere, constantly squawking....
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
    So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
    Spoiler:



  2. #442

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Talking about the point of Morganz, it is interesting because he's also an important tip on the future of Big Mom, will she be victorious, defeated or killed? Regarding that, his chances to publish what happened at the Tea Party are on the table. Whether victorious or defeated, she can take a grudge on him and kill him, just killed will bring no paybacks to him.

    For certain, taking photos and commenting is what mostly would happen with the publishment of a new "Worst Generation" alliance. Still we got the point that maybe news are more impotant than his life, yet an understatement would be to say that Momma can just forgive him for disgracing her name by a mere gift from him...

    I don't know what will happen regarding that, specially with the Vinsmokes there... but indeed the one who loses is Lin Lin, no matter what.

    Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it
    Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others
    Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.





  3. #443

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by Shobu Yoruichi View Post
    Still we got the point that maybe news are more impotant than his life
    Probably this. I think aside from Luffy and Jinbe he's the only one that can resist Big Mom's soul draining.
    Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.

  4. #444

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    I wonder if mother carmel was about to die and BM decided to place her soul in the picture so she can live on, in a way. An now she is dead because of brook....

  5. #445

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post
    I wonder if mother carmel was about to die and BM decided to place her soul in the picture so she can live on, in a way. An now she is dead because of brook....
    That means she got killed by someone who... didn't get the picture.
    Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.

  6. #446

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTEMlS View Post
    That means she got killed by someone who... didn't get the picture.
    .

    her soul got released by... the soul king, so now she can be free to move on. Kinda fits.
    Last edited by uniaka ikuzakas; April 29th, 2017 at 09:32 AM.

  7. #447

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    While I find it greatly amusing, the trouble with the cliffhanger vis-a-vis storytelling is the reader has to adjust to two surprises at once: The surprise of the picture getting smashed s suddenly and easily, and the surprise of Brook being a Luffy decoy, and thus in a position to even do that. Learning both things at the same time makes it feel a bit more jarring and convenient. But it may just be that a moment like that sticks out, since this is the most convenience-reliant arc in the series. Much like Law in Punk Hazard, I keep wondering what Bege would've done if the Straw Hats hadn't come along (with Caesar and Brülee).
    *Note: Not all of the answer is towards you, but my overall thoughts on these connected events.

    If you you notice that Brook came out of the wedding cake with the other Luffys, then would that not establish that Brook is also acting as part of the decoys? The fact that you can notice Brook's form among all the Luffy should have been a trigger as to: why is he there? The fact that Smoothie didn't recognize him neither or Mont D'Or, should have been a: why is no one recognizing Brook even though the readers can. The next time we see him it shows that he was using a mask. Which considering that he could have just used Brulee's power to hide himself and he decided to opt for a mask is the type of ridiculous behavior I expect of the Strawhats.

    Personally, I like these unspoken hints, but I also understand the point of view of building up so these surprising events.

    For example, maybe I am wrong:

    Hidden:


    In the fourth panel "Uwa, he is covered in cake", we see Brook already wearing the mask. You can recognize him because of his suit. I couldn't find him anywhere else after. I get it though, it would have been nice to see to see him with the mask in his hand when they were almost late to the wedding. Or when they are about to jump. Oda decided to, show us that Brook came out of the cake with Luffy, and then sightly hinted that he had something on his face, because we cannot see that scar, and we see round eyes not sockets.

    I agree on the convenience of having both Brulee and Ceasar. It sparks my curiosity to see what were Capone's options before Ceasar came into the picture. Brulee was a double edge sword the minute she appeared. If she had been as strong as one of the commanders then a real miracle would have been needed to defeat her.

    ----

    It is a complex situation to analyze because of Katakuri being in the picture. But if we consider that for him to see the future, he has to focus on his target. Then it is much easier to bypass him as a threat. The real Luffy declared himself and his intention, and then Jimbe used the opportunity to quit the crew. The next backup they have is Pedro, someone that we have seen able to bypass Observation haki. While some of the non-combatant guest are preoccupied with the wild animals, the others are shocked at seeing Jimbe being immune to their mother's power. I think this is much bigger even than we realize. If we see Big Mom's abilities: Devil Fruit power, haki, invulnerability, Zeus, Prometheus, Napoleon, and the fact that she could start animating any object as a soldier. I would find it hard to believe that anyone but the other emperors and some top brass in the marines would not be scared of her.

    For Jimbe's advantage, he is willing to put down his life down for his principles. And considering he has witnessed first hand the type of man his *true* captain is and aspires to be. He is ready to commit his entire being. There is nothing to fear, like Brook once said in Fishman Island. Now the question would be, why wouldn't other crews be as committed? Well, most of the antagonists are, but always to further their own goal and tied to more selfish goals. With Big Mom, Kaido and Blackbeard I find that the minute you are not useful you get iced. That's why they rule with power, and the crewmates are fearful. Something that has displayed a lot for both Big Mom and Kaido. Their crews are strong and big enough to stand on their own. But the cohesiveness that you could expect from the Strawhats or Shanks ship is not there. That is why it is not surprising that everyone wants to handle it on their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamiel View Post

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  8. #448

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    Good point about there technically being two surprises. But I think you should rephrase that question to what would the Straw hats do if Bege wasn't conveniently planning his own coup for two years against the same antagonist. This is much more coincidentally convenient for the Straw Hats than the Firetank Pirates.


    You skipped the oarts about how after learning that Luffy wants to be the bait and make a quirky entrance, we see his entrance a few chapters later, then we see the flashback of Luffy explainibg what his entrance will be, and then we get Fake Brook being backup out of nowhere.

    We started out not knowing the plan for Luffy's entrance. But we knew something unorthodox would happen. Brulee herself did not have specific build-up, but her role in the plan of Luffy's entrance was because we were left in the dark about what Luffy's entrance was. If we actually heard some of what he said, but Oda conveniently left out Brulee's role, and then we find out that she made some mirror clones anyways, I would also find that to be a cheap twist that adds new factors to what was already built-up. When you have a premise for something as generic as "I want to make a funny entrance", that opens the board for all sorts of combinations of whatever characters and nearby factors we know are present. But when you show that premise's details, show it in action, and then add another element on top of that which was not hinted, it can reasonably harm suspension of disbelief.

    The thing about Luffy's announcement of his entrance plan is that NOTHING SPECIFIC had build-up. So anything was up for grabs, be it Brulee, Brook, or both of them before we see the entrance. Then we see the entrance and clearly see that Brulee was chosen. Then we see the flashback and know that Luffy's plan revolved around Brulee and nothing else in the context of the flashback. That laid groundwork that effectively erased the question of "What is Luffy's big entrance". Add on how we know that Luffy's role was to be the bait to break the mirror, and there are no open-ended loose ends to use for adding another twist that can effectively subvert expectations of what has been set. There were no hints of anything else being planned. But then comes Brook as a surprise. Actually, two surprises like Daz said since Brook was both a fake Luffy AND broke the mirror. These surprises were not built-up to be feasible at all and after we saw the flashback of what Luffy's idea was. Sure, theoretically, new stuff could have happened afterwards. But that is only theoretical. Only assumptive. A visual medium should not need to leave key plot points up for pure assumptions, even if reasons are given later. There should always be build up.

    Green Bull's Devil Fruit power is not a key plot point that is meant to work as a twist. At least not yet. We already know that lots of people in this series, especially powerful ones, use Devil Fruits. If we never saw any Devil Fruits in this series and Green Bull was the first to use one out of nowhere, yeah, that would be a bad twist due to lacking any build-up to sustain disbelief and maintain plot consistency. A better example you could have used would be Blackbeard revealing that he can harness two Devil Fruits simultaneously against all known facts about Devil Fruits for most of the world.

    The thing is that even if the end result is shown first, it usually has build-up because the character using it or someone else knows that a new technique exists and will be used soon. We'll get something like training being mentioned happening off-panel. That "something" is what makes this formula of revelations work and not turn off fans. But Brook breaks this formula because he doesn't have that build-up. As flimsy as a one sentence statement about learning a new technique off-panel is, and trust me I would definitely prefer having more plausible reasons shown to support Luffy having the time and inspiration to create the Gears on the way to Enies Lobby, it's still build-up that makes Luffy's Gears plausible. You can definitely argue that it's not enough build-up, but it's still build-up. And ever good twist needs build-up.

    But HOW we get the complete picture matters though in a narrative. You can't just do whatever style you want as long as you tell the whole truth. There's a reason why bad plot-twists exist. Most likely nothing will change my thoughts on this because I don't care for how it was revealed. Not what the reveal was. I'm not critiquing a piece or the whole picture, I'm critiquing how the pieces were shown to fit into the big picture. We're either getting an explanation for why Brook put on a mask or not next chapter, but that does not change how it got revealed. This is not about the complete picture. This is about how it was formed. The complete picture later on isn't going to change anything about the quality of previously published chapters.
    OK, so here's the thing.
    I did totally forgot about that scene. And that scene does change my opinion. I hope you understand why I kept hitting that key, which I now saw is broken.
    I'm more to your side now, a small background gag there could've worked wonders. I say background gag because something including actual text/dialogue would probably be too obvious and go against the intended absolute surprise efect.

    Still, despite understanding your point of view much better and siding more with you, I'm still not fully on your camp because of what Tamiel pointed out.
    In that same chapter we get a couple of hidden Brooks, and that still counts as something for the reader to pay attention.
    It was already there we just didn't see it, kinda like the BM pirates.

    So now for the fun game I just discovered, Can you find the hidden Brook? Yohohohoh!
    Spoiler:





    Btw, has anyone here read Shaman King?
    This reminds me of the shaman tournament qualifiers, where Ryu is cleverly hidden in many panels since we didn't knew at the time that he had developed shaman abilities.

  9. #449
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by FolhaS View Post
    OK, so here's the thing.
    I did totally forgot about that scene. And that scene does change my opinion. I hope you understand why I kept hitting that key, which I now saw is broken.
    I'm more to your side now, a small background gag there could've worked wonders. I say background gag because something including actual text/dialogue would probably be too obvious and go against the intended absolute surprise efect.

    Still, despite understanding your point of view much better and siding more with you, I'm still not fully on your camp because of what Tamiel pointed out.
    In that same chapter we get a couple of hidden Brooks, and that still counts as something for the reader to pay attention.
    It was already there we just didn't see it, kinda like the BM pirates.

    So now for the fun game I just discovered, Can you find the hidden Brook? Yohohohoh!


    I know about Brook being in that page lol. But the thing is... That doesn't really change anything about my complaint. My issue is with the build-up not being in the planning scenes/flashback. And the reason why that's an issue for me is because that is the only possible time where you can build-up motivation for why and how Brook would do this. That scene you posted only shows that Brook came out with the mirror clone Luffy's at the same time. It builds up the twist at the end, but only after the plan already started. It doesn't build up why his role in the plan by acting as backup for Luffy with a disguise happened. It only builds up that he's a fake Luffy and may break the picture if Luffy can't. But it does not build-up how Brook got this idea/role in the first place. And I need some indication for the why since this is a weird role not indicated to be desired in the planning we saw.

    I hope you understand me now. I want build-up in planning scenes so that Brook's decision makes sense. You could argue that Brook decided to act on his own without anybody's approval, but that's even more weird because haven't really seen why he would think that he needs to act on his own if the plan already sounds good. And it's weird for everybody to just let Brook wander off and not notice he's gone when everybody is expected to act according to the plan in some way, unless Oda wants to go for a cheap gag where they conveniently forgot about him just because.

    Let's pretend that that the planning session (including the Luffy entrance flashback) is Point A. Brook coming out of that cake with the other fake Luffy's is Point B. And Brook breaking the picture at the end of the chapter is Point C.

    We can see how Point B connects with Point C because we can tell (at least in hindsight if you didn't notice Brook on that page at first) that Brook is a fake Luffy, and will thus act as backup. But we do not see how Point A connects with Point B, because a special role for Brook or Brook having some sort hinted agendas/feelings that may prompt him to act this way is not present. There needs to be build-up between Point A and Point B so that Point B even happening makes sense. That page of Brook jumping out of the cake as Point B only explains how Point C happened, but it does not explain Point A due to only being shown after Point A.
    Last edited by Count Mario; April 29th, 2017 at 01:47 PM.

    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  10. #450

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Now that you point it... i must say that the thing with Brook was nice but not great. He might be the surprise factor of the arc like Sanji did before at Arabasta and Ennies Lobby but still felt like forced... you can see him aiming at the top Poneglyph first to after be found in the same one... and here disguised with other weapon that should cut instead of break... only nice and i'm not hyped at all about it.

    Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it
    Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others
    Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.





  11. #451

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Isn't showing the plan before being executed generally results to fail?
    Spoiler:
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  12. #452
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    Isn't showing the plan before being executed generally results to fail?
    Yeah. Very much so. That does not mean you still can't lay out hints for that the plan will be about though. It just means you don't have the characters talk about what the plan is. The reason why plans told on-screen always fail is because if they work out, then the plot becomes too predictable. If the plans are not told, then suspense is kept up and it's a good way of making the readers be in awe at the capabilities of the characters when they see how all of the hidden strands are able to connect to subvert expectations.

    "The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke."

  13. #453

    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    So, is that extra panel enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamiel View Post

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  14. #454
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Piece 863: The Consumate Gentleman

    Already saturday we can expect early spoilers right?? I feel like whatever happens from now on, 1-will be awesome and 2- will more or less tell us which path this arc will be taking and what we can expect from the conclusion of it.








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