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Thread: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

  1. #21
    Discovered Stowaway Jakisuaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Chopper View Post
    It's not bad by any means except for some scenes like Sanji VS Judge fights. Do you already forget that what we have in this arc such as the musical scenes? Speaking of music scenes, it had more than 120 cuts just in around 4 minutes while the average numbers for a 30 minutes long episode in Japanese industry is 300 cuts.
    It's not just the cuts that determine the quality of an episode. As explained by Ocelet, sometimes using less frames will increase the speed and impact of a scene. If anything, this comes down to poor episode direction, which is something I don't like saying as Isamu Takara is easily one of my favourite ADs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Chopper View Post
    And I remembered that I had already said for more than ten times that the specials will affect the regular anime. And under this circumstances we even had episodes generally with a decent animation except for those two Sanji's episodes.
    I know it will, it just doesn't make it any less frustrating when watching an episode to think "Oh right, I shouldn't have high expectations for this since the special I don't care about is sucking up all the good animators".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Chopper View Post
    By the way, speaking of post-processing filters, one of the reasons why the regular anime doesn't use it is that half of backgrounds are hand-painting, and filters like what DBS used now will technically break the feeling of hand-painted artworks.
    Aren't a lot of DBS' backgrounds hand-painted as well? Or are they digitally painted? Would like some more details on this if you are able to provide them :)

  2. #22

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    It's not just the cuts that determine the quality of an episode. As explained by Ocelet, sometimes using less frames will increase the speed and impact of a scene. If anything, this comes down to poor episode direction, which is something I don't like saying as Isamu Takara is easily one of my favourite ADs.

    I know it will, it just doesn't make it any less frustrating when watching an episode to think "Oh right, I shouldn't have high expectations for this since the special I don't care about is sucking up all the good animators".
    I'm sorry but I'm afraid you didn't get what I mean. 120 cuts in around 4 minutes were far beyond TV level.
    In addition, all the Japanese animes are 24 frames per second. I know what you mean by using less frames though, and Kanada style was a typical example.

    But it's weird to me that the episode just had many good animations while you said the animation in this episode was bad. The scenes where Luffy was against Cracker could have been better IMO, but many scenes besides it were well drawn and much better than the average standard, such as tons of background or homies animations we had in today's episode. I'm going to post gifs here later.

    Aren't a lot of DBS' backgrounds hand-painted as well? Or are they digitally painted? Would like some more details on this if you are able to provide them :)
    I don't know details about DBS sorry, but speaking of One Piece the art director has confirmed that half of backgrounds were hand-painting.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Here are some examples of some really good directions in this episode:

    Spoiler:











    Spoiler:








    Spoiler:
    [







    And the entrance for the rabbit and the bird was overall well animated.


    And all of these also already proof that the anime now had a good general looking without many post-progress filters like what DBS has. We really don't need to envy DBS at all.
    Last edited by Sun_Chopper; July 16th, 2017 at 09:38 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    im really optimistic about this arc Concerning the animation , and i believe we going to have good animation like the old days ,
    maybe in the next month or after , because right now : tiger mask W is over , + special episode east blue of one piece was takin so much talented animatos , so i think we
    should only wait until that time

  4. #24

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Next episode's preview looks pretty promising, this something I totally didn't expect considering the fact that it'll be done by Ueda and Deguchi.
    I hope the episode itself will be good and it's not just a case of a well done preview.
    Also for the people comparing this to DBS and say that DBS has better pacing, DBS right now is in the twenty third episode of an arc revolving around 48 minutes battle royale, you know why people might think it has a good pacing, it's because there is no source material to compare it to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
    I'm just an amateur animator, but I honestly think I could pull off a better kick than they did xD..
    Its funny how they can actually increase the impact and feel by REDUCING the amounts of frames they are using. Using so many frames for a kick, its basically just like doing the anticipation part and thats it.
    Also really awkward angle.
    (talking about the second kick cracker took, not the first one. Not like the first one was any better though)
    In addition, lack of camera shake, in the sanji vs yonji ep the kick sanji made against him could've been perfect with good camerashake. I actually tried it myself in flash, and it looked pretty damn good when I added in camera shake.
    I'm sorry to say this, you're just plainly wrong about Luffy's kick, as soon as the camera switched positions Luffy's kick was already making contact. Also, almost skipping from Luffy's first kick (to block the sword) to his second kick would be bad because we wouldn't get to understand that Luffy is flipping mid-air, and it would appear as if Luffy magically gained momentum into raising his leg mid-air. And if they showed the cut where Luffy starts spinning but then speed up the rest would also make little sense.
    btw, less frames do not equal shorter cuts, I'm sure you know that as you're an amateur animator, so did you really mean less frames or did you actually mean shorter cuts? Correct me if I didn't get your point properly in this bit.
    I'm overall one of those people who don't generally like spamming camera shaking, lens flare, and flashlight effects especially at a totally inappropriate time, these effects are confusing for the casual viewers, as half of the time they wouldn't be able to tell what's happening on the screen. Overusing these effects usually hides the beautiful work that had the time and effort of the staff poured into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    It made me sad to see the vibrant, saturated colours of the Thriller Bark era compared with the bland, boring colors we have today.
    Please consider that the episode took place at night time with no lights around in a deep forest. The episode had a very slight blue tint filter which is very fitting for the atmosphere, but maybe it needed a light source to emphasize the moonlight. So this time it's definitely not a case of bad color design.

  5. #25

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    I love how the entire first half of the episode was basically just Cracker showing up and Nami remembering who Lola was for about 5 minutes. I guess she was just that forgettable. Second half was slightly better.
    It wasn't so much Nami trying to remember who Lola is as it was her connecting the dots on Lola's statements and realizing who her mom is. The Lola flashbacks were for the audience's benefit (and at least I benefited, since I'd forgotten a lot about Pig Lola and how she and Nami met). I thought they were handled pretty well.

    That being said, I didn't really care much for a lot of the first act either. Way too many still shots, pans, and reactions in between basically every line of dialogue or significant action. Things picked up in the second half, with Brulee's reappearance and Chopper and Carrot in the mirror being a pretty nice high point. The homies chasing Nami and Pound was also pretty enjoyable.

    Speaking of which, this episode featured a good and a bad effect most of the way through it. The good effect was the Vivre Card, it was actually soothing in a way while still emanating the power it was supposed to. The bad was Cracker's...fearmongering. Like, it was pretty safe to worry when its first usage was shown as a GIANT FIRE BEAM TO THE SKY. Rather than being a neat little feature to demonstrate Cracker's power, it was overpowering to the point of being absolutely ridiculous. Blurred lines, blurred lines everywhere!

    Another high point of the episode was its animation quality, at least in the character model department - everyone looked really detailed most of the time and it was cool to see. So it was pretty much a so-so episode, with good detail but bad pacing in the first half, and better pacing but BLURRY LINEZ in the second half.


    Spoiler:

  6. #26

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by BroBro View Post
    from the preview, it looks like next week will have stiff animation. i hope im wrong.
    Next episode will feature the dream team of Ueda/Deguchi, sooo expectations are not high. Deguchi has had some good key animators working for him these days, so its not quite as bad as it would have been a few years ago. Though I can't recall the last time he was paired up with Ueda

    The weakness of both does show in that preview, though it's not too bad, like, we've seen worse this arc. If the animation in anything beyond sluggish and choppy, I'll be content
    Last edited by Mr. Luffy; July 16th, 2017 at 03:24 PM.


  7. #27

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    I can't even..Cracker grabs Pound, I go get my weekly lootboxes on Overwatch and when I come back he is still holding Pound.

  8. #28

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by RamistaR View Post
    I can't even..Cracker grabs Pound, I go get my weekly lootboxes on Overwatch and when I come back he is still holding Pound.
    In manga Cracker grabbed Pound for 11 pages too. Many events happened when Cracker was grabbing him.

  9. #29
    Ep 309 was too good for me Ocelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainyz View Post
    I'm sorry to say this, you're just plainly wrong about Luffy's kick, as soon as the camera switched positions Luffy's kick was already making contact. Also, almost skipping from Luffy's first kick (to block the sword) to his second kick would be bad because we wouldn't get to understand that Luffy is flipping mid-air, and it would appear as if Luffy magically gained momentum into raising his leg mid-air. And if they showed the cut where Luffy starts spinning but then speed up the rest would also make little sense.
    btw, less frames do not equal shorter cuts, I'm sure you know that as you're an amateur animator, so did you really mean less frames or did you actually mean shorter cuts? Correct me if I didn't get your point properly in this bit.
    I'm overall one of those people who don't generally like spamming camera shaking, lens flare, and flashlight effects especially at a totally inappropriate time, these effects are confusing for the casual viewers, as half of the time they wouldn't be able to tell what's happening on the screen. Overusing these effects usually hides the beautiful work that had the time and effort of the staff poured into.
    This is kind of a long reply, I tried to explain as best as I can how scenes could potentially look much better. Hope you have fun reading this xD, also answered all your questions Brainyz
    Spoiler:
    I'm not really sure you got what I said, because alot of the things you spoke aren't what I meant.
    Just to make sure we're on the same page, I was mainly talking about this kick.
    https://youtu.be/dIa5zn7a3y0?t=2m15s
    To explain why this kick is not so attractive to an average person's eye, i've made something simple.
    Here is something from the movie 3d2y.
    http://prntscr.com/fwk7r5 (its this one by the way: https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/21764)
    It's just a beautiful kick. It's fast and powerful.
    I would do the same thing to the kick I was talking about, but its quite alot of frames so I'll just try to explain it as best as I can.
    https://youtu.be/dIa5zn7a3y0?t=2m16s
    The initial flip is good, although it could use more easing I guess. And then comes the kick, the transition to the different camera perspective was good, but what bothers me is how god damn long does the kick move.. they couldve made it a bit better by maybe animating just the kick flying in 1's (different drawing each 1 frame) instead of in 2's (different drawing each 2 frames). That would've made the kick at least look faster and nicer.
    There are so many ways I can see to make this kick 10 times better, but lemme try explain just one out of my mind.
    Let's just imagine they stopped the flying kick scene in this frame.
    http://prntscr.com/fwkakt
    Now let me try to do something interesting.
    http://prntscr.com/fwkf6h
    1. is my small edit, 2. is what the anime used, 3. is my shitty looking edit because to make it look good I would actually have to draw luffy again, as well as remove him from the picture naturally.
    Anyways, in 1, instead of having the leg stiffly and slowly approach Cracker, it would instead shoot down in a rubbery, snappy, and fun way. Would also use a smear frame to further imply how fast the leg is hitting.
    2 kinda makes no sense, its pretty much almost the same frame, which barely brings any impact.
    So in my edit, I would actually draw luffy something like this
    http://prntscr.com/fwkggf
    Maybe even zoom the whole frame out a bit, just to show the viewer that his leg is really stretched up, meaning the impact is gonna be strong.
    And only the I would go to the final frame that they did, which is sadly a still frame.
    That's really it pretty much. Also for the first kick, they could've made something more appealing like https://youtu.be/EKhwCteUw8Y?t=34s
    A quick dash, not animated with just 2's, and a good impact. It's not really that hard.. i'm not really sure if their key animators are really aspiring to become amazing animators at this point, because
    it's such an easy thing to learn once you watch enough animations by other talented animators.
    By the way, I didn't mean at all that shorter cuts equal more strength o_o. That makes no sense really xD..
    All I meant is that an impact could be stronger if the spacing between the hit and the frame before the hit are further. I just tried to make it sound simpler to people who aren't familiar with animation terminology.
    So less frames, for example, literally 4 frames could make a better hit than they did. It would be like
    Kick preparation > Leg moving just a bit > Leg moving fast, could use a smear or a blur or whatever > Impact
    Not really the perfect formula for every kick, but it would still be better than what they did.
    Also, about the camera shake and lens flare stuff you said, i'm not really a fan of that either. When I animate, I kinda hate adding that beacuse it really does hide my work. But what can I say? it just looks much better. I'm 70% sure that one piece watchers will stop complaining so much if they add just a bit more of that. The sanji vs yonji kick scene had a fucking amazing buildup, but when the actual kick arrived, just what...

    Also, you said next episode looks good. I'm sure you made that assumption by looking at the red hawk I guess? but it just has the same issues. Compare what you just saw in the preview to this:
    https://youtu.be/ka6QqnnBT-A?t=1m23s
    And YES I know that this one is a much more important scene and whatever, but I could pretty much use everything I said in this comment and make the red hawk in the preview 10 times better. I honestly feel like if I could go to toei and try to explain to the key animators how the fuck impact works, or at least how in heavens rubber should move like, things would be much much better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Chopper View Post

    Here are some examples of some really good directions in this episode:






    Spoiler:


    And all of these also already proof that the anime now had a good general looking without many post-progress filters like what DBS has. We really don't need to envy DBS at all.
    I really agree with you. Alot of the direction is amazing, and the art is fantastic. But tbh I would still give up amazing art for better animation. The last well animated cut I saw in One Piece was when luffy made a net of his fingers and caught fake sanji(ep 795 13:43 on crunchyroll), it was really fun to look at and had proper weight and stuff. Wonder who did that.. the entire scene was really funny too by the way, I liked the voice acting and expressions
    Last edited by Ocelot; July 16th, 2017 at 09:47 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamind View Post
    In manga Cracker grabbed Pound for 11 pages too. Many events happened when Cracker was grabbing him.
    Fair enough 16 chars

  11. #31
    Yonkou allied force evilvanessafan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainyz View Post
    DBS right now is in the twenty third episode of an arc revolving around 48 minutes battle royale, you know why people might think it has a good pacing, it's because there is no source material to compare it to
    i wouldn't say it has better pacing, but you have to note that the animation studio gets a story outline,
    and character sketches etc... to work with.... well in advance of the actual manga version....
    it takes time for the studio to animate AND find matching voiceactors for possibly 80+ battle royale fighters etc too....
    which is probably the reason there was a preliminary round first, and some filler + member searching episodes,
    before the actual tournament started....

  12. #32

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by evilvanessafan View Post
    i wouldn't say it has better pacing, but you have to note that the animation studio gets a story outline,
    and character sketches etc... to work with.... well in advance of the actual manga version....
    it takes time for the studio to animate AND find matching voiceactors for possibly 80+ battle royale fighters etc too....
    which is probably the reason there was a preliminary round first, and some filler + member searching episodes,
    before the actual tournament started....
    Also the fact that the backgrounds in DBSuper at the minute consist mainly of cloudy space shots repeated, they've probably been able to use the budget on other needed areas. Also might be the main reason for post-processing filters, so it doesn't look boring.

  13. #33

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    To anyone complaining about the pacing this episode, everything that happened was literally word for word what happened in the manga. I'm pretty sure there wasn't much filler content at all. The flashbacks to Lola may have been slightly extended but they were there in the manga and off the top of my head they covered at least some of what was shown. I mean it's not the best manga chapter or anime episode but it at least sets up what is coming up next week.

    Another thing people don't seem to realize is that the amount of text in a text bubble can take a lot longer to be displayed in the anime depending on what is being discussed. I mean an entire page filled with some of Oda's detailed dialogue can easily cover 5 minutes worth of content. And I don't want the anime skipping any dialogue just for quicker pacing.

    As pointed out, there were several good animated scenes this episode. The only thing I felt that was a bit lacking was Cracker firing off his aura which somehow felt a bit underwhelming to me.

  14. #34
    Frontier Agent Miss Saturday's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Chopper View Post
    Thriller Bark was literally an arc broadcast 9 years ago. It's the fact that many new audiences even don't know who Lora is.
    Which can easily be summed up in a much shorter flashback or sequence. Not 3 solid minutes of Nami going "HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM THE THINGS BEING SAID AROUND ME REMIND ME OF SOMETHING."

    Ignorance, my dear, is no excuse for slop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    It made me sad to see the vibrant, saturated colours of the Thriller Bark era compared with the bland, boring colors we have today.
    God damn, this. They should altogether just stop showing flashbacks to pre-timeskip content. It just highlights how awful the art style is now.


  15. #35

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    Which can easily be summed up in a much shorter flashback or sequence. Not 3 solid minutes of Nami going "HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM THE THINGS BEING SAID AROUND ME REMIND ME OF SOMETHING."

    Ignorance, my dear, is no excuse for slop.
    Excuse me but... What do you mean by ignorance and slop? Who is ignorance? Those audiences who didn't know or forgot who Lola was? How can we use these words?

    The flashbacks were already summed up considering the fact that it's an arc aired in 2008 and many audiences didn't know or forgot who Lola was and what's the relationship between her and Nami.

    We may all forget things happened decade ago.

    My friend I really understand that you dislike the anime because of arcs like Fishman Island which just had too many problems. And I always think it's NOT audiences' fault. But the show is really different now, trust me.

    God damn, this. They should altogether just stop showing flashbacks to pre-timeskip content. It just highlights how awful the art style is now.
    Some pre-timeskip scenes in this episode:
    Spoiler:







    In WCI most of Nami's scenes are at this level:
    Spoiler:






    I hope the anime will keep delivering awful arts if it means this kind of arts will last forever.
    Last edited by Sun_Chopper; July 18th, 2017 at 06:09 AM.

  16. #36
    Ep 309 was too good for me Ocelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Definitely agree with you Sun_Chopper.
    I have no idea how can someone think this artstyle is awful, its so amazing to just look at, every shot literally surprised me!

  17. #37

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
    Definitely agree with you Sun_Chopper.
    I have no idea how can someone think this artstyle is awful, its so amazing to just look at, every shot literally surprised me!
    Thanks! To be honest I really think I was a bit too anxious in this episode's discussions. But just like what I said in the previous page, what made me worried a lot is that I really don't know if the following arcs will keep the quality what this arc has, or become even better. As an audience for years, I remembered exactly what those darkest time was like, and I never hope the quality to drop again.

    This arc did have its problems, and I even cannot make my expectations on the following few episodes too high because of the East Blue specials. But despite of some shortcomings, this arc already had a lot of highlights. For example, I know that many of us manga readers including myself don't like the woods part in this arc, but anime wise these three episodes had a very strong direction (and art of corse) that significantly lifted up the average direction level of this arc. And that's why I believe that this episode deserved a positive evaluation.

    By the way, from the preview I guess many scenes were by Ito. Rushed work though, considering he's also the AD of #796 and it's really a heavy job. But I think I still need to watch the full episode because It's a Ueda and Deguchi episode so I cannot make my expectations too high.
    Last edited by Sun_Chopper; July 18th, 2017 at 04:14 AM.

  18. #38
    Discovered Stowaway Jakisuaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
    Definitely agree with you Sun_Chopper.
    I have no idea how can someone think this artstyle is awful, its so amazing to just look at, every shot literally surprised me!
    It's not the artstyle that bothers me, it's the colors used. I think what has bothered me so much about the recent episodes is the way the seducing woods are displayed at night. It's way too bright, almost like they drew the scene in daylight and just dimmed it post-production. When I think night I (Selfishly) expect something dark, like this:

    Spoiler:


    Now, obviously, I'm not looking for the same production quality, since this is from movie 6. I just want the same atmospheric feel.

  19. #39

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    It's not the artstyle that bothers me, it's the colors used. I think what has bothered me so much about the recent episodes is the way the seducing woods are displayed at night. It's way too bright, almost like they drew the scene in daylight and just dimmed it post-production. When I think night I (Selfishly) expect something dark, like this:



    Now, obviously, I'm not looking for the same production quality, since this is from movie 6. I just want the same atmospheric feel.
    I got your idea bro. Yeah the feel was super great in this scenes you posted here.

    But in the scenes you posted it had a dark night with close bright lights like this:



    In these woods episodes, however, it's not that dark and the only light was the moon.





    So technically this kind of atmosphere cannot be happened in the seducing woods. Even the sky become even darker, there were no bright lights other than the moon.
    Last edited by Sun_Chopper; July 18th, 2017 at 05:30 AM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: 797: ''A Big Shot! Commander Cracker Appears''

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    Which can easily be summed up in a much shorter flashback or sequence. Not 3 solid minutes of Nami going "HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM THE THINGS BEING SAID AROUND ME REMIND ME OF SOMETHING."

    Ignorance, my dear, is no excuse for slop.
    We didn't even get Lola's life story in these flashbacks. Just a brief recounting of how Nami and Lola became friends without that much context to it. If you took away any of the four scenes they showed you wouldn't have been able to understand their relationship at all.

    *Sheepishly raises hand* I pretty much completely forgot what Pig Lola did. So if this was helpful to me, then it's gotta be helpful to the hundreds of viewers who have never seen Thriller Bark before, and don't have easy access to past episodes like I do.


    Spoiler:

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