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Thread: European Politics Thread

  1. #361

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch
    Also, there is no reason for the entire american community of this forum to be part of the very little minority that was against the war. They could be, but I'm just saying that statistically speaking, most of this forum was probably pro-war back then
    Thirty to forty percent of the population is hardly a "very little minority". Opposition to the war wasn't a LaRouche Democrat or Green Party position but a strongly held belief by good sized part of one of the two major political parties.

    Plus, you know, I was actually on Arlong Park by 2004 and, while political discussions weren't big on this forum, I'd honestly be surprised if many, let alone most, of the people I saw here back then supported the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

    There was a slight dip in his poll numbers but as you can see throughout late 2002 and the first half of 2003 they were well over 70%.
    In the four year, you can see they were in the mid-60s to mid-to-high 50s during that period until his speech about Saddam right before the war pushed it back up to a high of 71.4 which immediately began to drop. Bush lost thirty-five points in popularity over the 500 days after September 12, 2001 and twenty points after less than half the time after the Iraq War began.

    Your second link even points out that thirteen percent jump in popularity.

    Here is a Gallup article on how 70% of Americans approve of the Iraq war: https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/se...inst-iraq.aspx
    Note that was a jump up of almost twenty points from polls before the war, which, if this was a sample of the same people, means a considerable portion of that support were convinced by his speech immediately before the war while another group was basically "Well, it's happening, might as well make the best of it."

    I'm not seeing any sort of breakdown as to who was polled though beyond merely the number polled and "adults".
    Complicating things since 2009.

  2. #362

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    For how long has this forum been existing ? I thought it was created in early 2005

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    Thirty to forty percent of the population is hardly a "very little minority". Opposition to the war wasn't a LaRouche Democrat or Green Party position but a strongly held belief by good sized part of one of the two major political parties.
    Well, now I don't know which numbers exactly we're supposed to talk about. If lots of datas everywhere makes people feel more secure, so be it.
    But as always with polls, the outcome depends on the questions that are asked. The people that are polled are always diverse to be representative of the national opinion.

    And that one poll that shows that 30% of americans thought that the war wasn't "agressive enough" is a very famous poll in the anti-americanist rhetoric. Because it shows how many insane warmongers there are over there. Anyway, I see that it's this poll that's an issue for you since you ignored it. It gives direct public opinions on the course of the war, not "intervention yes/no/maybe/don't know". Because properly speaking all those issues that exist today are a result of how the war was handled, not the intervention in itself.

    Here is the poll (and another one here). Fox News knows how to be useful sometimes, lol
    Spoiler:

    I'll give you that maybe it's not 6%, but 7 or 13 at most. Because "too agressive" doesn't actually mean peace & love in the end


    Also, this two questions here prove that wether the Iraq war changes the threat of possible terrorist attacks on american soil is no concern for the american people (since there is only a slight difference between both questions). In other words, this was barely a war against terrorism--- but just a warmongering thing.
    Not to mention that if that many people (something like 60%) think that they should go on war against Iraq and that the attacks against the US will probably increase with this war, it means that they really must a bunch of man-babies. What's even the point of the war then ?
    Spoiler:



    And this here proves that people who actually really opposed against the war were a tiny minority
    Spoiler:

    (even 3% seems too high tbh, there are obviously people who were very much against the war and who did nothing against it but still answered "yes" to that question)


    Now you might argue that these are "FoxNews polls anyway". But there is no reason at all to believe that they manipulated the results. Neither there is any reason to believe that they asked these questions to warmongering red-necks specifically. Given that the results for the question about the support of the war itself is around 70% too, just like on the other polls.
    It's true that there are very stupid questions though, like "did you send a prayer for the president ?" and also very butthurt ones like "how much do you think we should fuck the French over for not following us in Iraq ?". But it would be far-fetched to say that they influenced the polls with these questions.

    Plus, you know, I was actually on Arlong Park by 2004 and, while political discussions weren't big on this forum, I'd honestly be surprised if many, let alone most, of the people I saw here back then supported the war.
    And so am I surprised by all the people I know who supported Sarkozy. Oddly enough, no one among my relatives today seem to have ever supported him. People have very tricky memories.

  3. #363

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    For how long has this forum been existing ? I thought it was created in early 2005
    This version dates back to February of 2005 but there were earlier incarnations that date back to 2003 or earlier.

    And that one poll that shows that 30% of americans thought that the war wasn't "agressive enough" is a very famous poll in the anti-americanist rhetoric. Because it shows how many insane warmongers there are over there. Anyway, I see that it's this poll that's an issue for you since you ignored it. It gives direct public opinions on the course of the war, not "intervention yes/no/maybe/don't know". Because properly speaking all those issues that exist today are a result of how the war was handled, not the intervention in itself.
    And I note once again that these polls aren't providing crosstabs to show how they break down; Opinion Dynamics as a company mostly pulls up polling results from quite a few years ago with the more current material being about their role as a marketing firm and consulting group.

    And this here proves that people who actually really opposed against the war were a tiny minority

    (even 3% seems too high tbh, there are obviously people who were very much against the war and who did nothing against it but still answered "yes" to that question)
    France had over forty million people living there in World War II but only a few hundred thousand people were part of the Resistance. Clearly over 90% of the population must have supported the German occupation.

    Now you might argue that these are "FoxNews polls anyway". But there is no reason at all to believe that they manipulated the results. Neither there is any reason to believe that they asked these questions to warmongering red-necks specifically. Given that the results for the question about the support of the war itself is around 70% too, just like on the other polls.
    It's true that there are very stupid questions though, like "did you send a prayer for the president ?" and also very butthurt ones like "how much do you think we should fuck the French over for not following us in Iraq ?". But it would be far-fetched to say that they influenced the polls with these questions.
    With it being Fox News, there's every reason to think they manipulated the results. Fox was one of the biggest proponents for the war to begin with and their polls always have a heavy Republican lean anyway.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  4. #364

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Nilitch the only reason you aren't being steamrolled with anger and laughter for asserting ridiculously stupid shit like "3% of Americans were against the war tops" is because most of the Americans on here are (like yourself) too young to remember the Bush administration.
    The entire fucking 2004 election was practically a referendum on the war, and it was an extremely heated 50/50 smash up that saw passions and anger flaring betweem Dems and Republicans.
    fucking lol at "3% TOO HIGH". You're a goddamn joke who chronically opens your mouth wide to talk loudly about things you know nothing about. Shut it sometimes.

  5. #365
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    When in doubt as a clueless European, like me, turn to South Park.



  6. #366

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    And I note once again that these polls aren't providing crosstabs to show how they break down; Opinion Dynamics as a company mostly pulls up polling results from quite a few years ago with the more current material being about their role as a marketing firm and consulting group.
    Dude, it really doesn't matter that you don't see the specifics of this poll though. You're kinda being nitpicky here. I understand that great quality polls show us lots of details, but it's not because it doesn't that it invalidates its outcome
    As far as I know, it looks like this poll isn't taken seriously by left-wing americans who think that their country isn't prone to such imbecilities.
    And when I say "as far as I know", I mean that we've heard this argument about this poll many times---- "this is a fox-news thing anyway" from north-american lefties.

    This is something that often happens. For instance, when Obama got elected we've got "this is true america that is back" from the left. But is it really tho ? It looks like he was the anomaly in the american landscape, and with Trump we're kinda (kinda) back to normal.
    Now that the Douche got elected, we get "this isn't the "true" america" from most media outlets (because most of the important media outlets are pro-Democrat). And the last thing that's been happening for a while now is this: "the american people are not responsable for Trump's election, it's all because of Putin and maybe a little bit of Zuckerberg". Okay, Putin probably did influence the elections (I mean, he obviously did). But my point is that americans seem to have a problem about dealing with their own bullshits. What's the problem about blaming them for the Iraq war ? Nationalism for the right ? Political correctness for the left ? maybe. (and also nationalism for the left, to be honest)
    In the end, same reason why the French got fucking amnesia after WW2. We had to wait 20 to 30years to think about what had happened

    Same for the Japanese. I don't blame them today, like I blame americans for the Iraq war. But we can legit blame them all for how much they endorsed that crazy Emperor in WW2. Because unlike in Europe, there was no Resistance at all in Japan.

    France had over forty million people living there in World War II but only a few hundred thousand people were part of the Resistance. Clearly over 90% of the population must have supported the German occupation.
    Yes, the French were scumbags. (And they might still be.) They were all clearly happy to get rid of the Jews and they're responsable for the Collaboration with the nazis as a whole. But it(/the blame) doesn't really matter anymore because these French pretty much all died. On the other hand the Iraq war is very very fresh, which is why it makes complete sense to blame the american population as a whole TODAY (except the ones who are under 30 I guess. And the 1% to 3% above that age who was against the war).
    Just like some German after the war shamed the generation before them for being nazi scumbs.

    But you're trying to make it sound like it was a "my people are saints vs your nation" thing. It is not. And I'm the first one to criticize the French when I have to, and I never hesitate to say that the French under Pétain who did nothing against the nazis(/eventually Germany as a whole tbh) were as much guilty as the the ones who worked with them. BECAUSE, they weren't just selling potatoes

    In other words, not 90% of the French were guilty for the Shoah, but 97 to 99%. Yes. (not the whole Shoah tho, obviously). The French were basically waiting like a bunch of sheep to get slaughtered after the Jews. It's so fucking insane, it's way worst than just twiddling one's thumbs for years when there is a war on the other side of the globe

    Anyway, this is a war we're talking about. Not some shitty labour law, or a libertarian tax program. If 3% of the population goes on protest, they are the ones who oppose the war. And the only ones. The people who mumble "fuck the war" between friends at the bar are useless and do not actually oppose anything. They are part of the system and in the end, they are all in line with the common opinion. Just like the French who sat on their ass for four years were. If you don't try anything and just whisper "wow, the germans are evil". It doesn't change in the slightest that they're killing children for being Jews (just killing children at all is evil tbh), and that you're next

    With it being Fox News, there's every reason to think they manipulated the results. Fox was one of the biggest proponents for the war to begin with and their polls always have a heavy Republican lean anyway.
    No there really isn't. And yes, the whole world knows what FoxNews is. We're not just looking at their polls and thinking "omg those american hombres are so evil". And again, wether it's the news outlets, the intelligentsia or polling organizations (like ipsos, that I linked. and btw is "politically neutral" obviously) we widely think this poll has no reason at all to be doubted.
    There is no reason to believe that they asked these questions to a different demographic since, as I said earlier "the results for the question about the support of the war itself is around 70% too, just like on the other polls."

    And I'm not hanging around on the american politics thread anymore (lol), but I believe that people are/were posting FoxNews polls too sometimes and it didn't look like a problem.
    You can't just choose to not believe their poll when it doesn't fit your feelings about how you felt the population was like in 2003.


    Also, you told me "there were widespread protests of that war". No, there clearly wasn't that much because only 3% of the population at most protested against the war.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Nilitch the only reason you aren't being steamrolled with anger and laughter for asserting ridiculously stupid shit like "3% of Americans were against the war tops" is because most of the Americans on here are (like yourself) too young to remember the Bush administration.
    The entire fucking 2004 election was practically a referendum on the war, and it was an extremely heated 50/50 smash up that saw passions and anger flaring betweem Dems and Republicans.
    fucking lol at "3% TOO HIGH". You're a goddamn joke who chronically opens your mouth wide to talk loudly about things you know nothing about. Shut it sometimes.
    *show polls about how much americans supported the war*
    MonkeyKing: Fuck these numbers. You don't have MY F4CtSssss !!!! Look at some other numbers one year after the start of the war please !!! And somehow-- you know nothing. I'll have you know that many teenagers on this forum are impressed by my sarcasm and "knowledge" ;)

    And no lol, the elections are in no way a referendum for the war, lmao. It's just the classic Democrat/Republican quarrel that keeps going on. No one gives a shit about what they campaigned for this election. Do people think that the persons who didn't vote for Bush in 2004 were against the war only because they voted Democrat ? nope, the people who voted Democrat for their entire life just kept voting democrats. And so did the ones who voted Republican. Only a slight part of the population swings between both parties. Hey, see it that way, the point is that Trump would probably not be president if he hadn't run as a Republican. This is a better argument that "muh Rasputin did this to us"
    What's fucking hilarious is that it's the only time that the Republicans won the popular vote in this century, but somehow "it shows how much the american people opposed the war"


    Anyway, just stay away sassy cat--- and keep ignoring half of my posts. I'm just trying to take you out of your echo-chamber--- you should grab my hand. I mean it
    Or do something creative. Like, gather up all my "ignorant" posts so that I understand what you're talking about at least



    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    I'd like to remind people that we're still talking about all this because of the repercussions that the Iraq war had on the Syrian conflict and the "refugee crisis" that came from it. And how Europe is dealing with the american people's bullshitts because of that

    I don't mind about welcoming refugees. But you can't be pedantic about how the EU handles the refugee issue like Trevor Noah, if you're the ones who caused that migration to happen in the first place.

    But you know. At this point we should just agree to disagree. And just ignore me from now on when I'll say that the US and the UK should welcome most of the refugees
    Last edited by Nilitch; July 15th, 2018 at 05:26 AM.

  7. #367

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Last edited by RazgrizX; July 16th, 2018 at 06:19 AM. Reason: So disappointed there is no Polnareff montage for the new anime

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