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Thread: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

  1. #10921

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    She makes a good point about how "the art and the artist" is really saying "I want to enjoy things without the political and social baggage." and I get that for some people who want to be "socially responsible" or "woke" might find that difficult.

    But honestly, it's up to YOU. Where YOU draw your personal lines and boundaries. It is what YOU decide is a bridge too far.

    Does what happened to the Hobbit suck? Yeah it does, but I love those movies and I'll watch them gladly.

    Is the Kenshin incident extremely unsettling, and probably has made a black mark on it (for me at least) Yes it is, but I won't deny that Kenshin is a wonderful series.

    Creators are human, and humans do fucking stupid shit. Trying to get your "woke points" by being ethical in your consumption is a fools' errand. Honorable sure, but I really think people just need to learn to switch off sometimes.
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    I wasn't distracted by Lucy being half naked.

    You won this week Fairy Tail.

  2. #10922

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Yeah from Ive read about doug and his involvement, or rather lack thereof I can homestly say it wont affect my enjoyment of the previous episodes he did. Now its possible my sense of humor changed and I find his schtick less comedic than I used to but there's a level of bad someone needs to reach before I drop them and them being a dick isnt that, and even then ai dint consider doug's actions considerably dickish just more aloof and unorganized
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
    So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
    H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
    Spoiler:



  3. #10923

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    No, that was quite obviously what she meant. She never ONCE says "If you disagree you're a child"

    I actually just transcribed the entire portion of the video so I can't be accused of cherry-picking:

    (Hidden for size)



    She's commenting on how we consume media, specifically that it's harder as an adult not to pick up on things that are inserted into films and television by the creators that reflect their worldview, whether done so maliciously or not, and as well how the circumstances around the creation of something affect the product and our perceptions of it.

    Earlier in the video she used the Apu situation in the Simpsons pointing out that a kid probably won't fully understand the part where Marge and Lisa address the audience about the discussion going on right now about the character but an adult will.


    An example I like to use from my own life is Ghostbusters. The original movie is a classic I grew up with as a kid and I love it to this day. It also has a heavy conservative Reaganomics lean to it.

    The movie starts when the snooty elite academic kicks them out of their school jobs and they're forced to work in the private sector where "They expect results" but rather than whine about it or demand a handout, they pull themselves up by their bootstraps and build a successful business which is threatened by the film's only human antagonist, a representative of the big bad EPA that's going to shut them down with... gasp, shock, Regulations.

    It's politics don't make it a bad film, but I definitely see those politics now when I didn't as a kid.

    That's what Lindsay is talking about. As a kid, it's MUCH easier to ignore this stuff because in most cases, a kid doesn't know enough to see it at all, but as adults we see it more easily and you then have to navigate it. She never says "You're a bad person" or "You're still basically a child" if you choose to try to ignore it as best you can, just that it takes more effort to do so as an adult than it did as a child.

    Even you just admitted you have the same issue.



    The fact that this situation Has affected how you view the Nostalgia Critic supports what she's saying. To point out your words, you said you try "very hard" to keep drama and politics from ruining art. The way you phrase that implies heavily that you Do see the drama and politics in art. Otherwise, why would it take major effort to ignore it.

    She never called anyone a child, only compared how a child handles these things to how an adult handles these things, and from what you're saying, you handle these things like an adult does and like the rest of us do.



    Also, Lindsay didn't specifically mention this by the way, but I wanted to add my own take on this too. I think this is where a lot of the "Keep politics out of my [movies/video games/comics/etc]" comes from when we as a modern society get into a lot of discussions about media and the like.

    I think a lot of people remember experiencing things as a kid and not seeing the politics or worldview in things that definitely had politics and worldviews expressed in them, yet now as an adult see politics in everything because they are aware of the stuff now, so they think this is a recent development that's "ruining" the things they love when in reality, art is and always has been an outlet of the creativity of the people making it and will definitely include some of their worldview and beliefs peppered into it.

    An example I think is how some people ignore that Captain America #1 with Cap punching Hitler was released Before the US entered WWII, and entering the War was very unpopular before Pearl Harbor so it was basically a controversial political statement. They will ignore all that and attack the recent run in Marvel where Sam Wilson (The Falcon) took over as Cap for a while as if it's somehow "ruining" Captain America by injecting "Politics" in that "Weren't there before"... even though they totally were.
    When people ask whether it's moral to separate art from the artist, or in this case, product from the multinational conglomerate, what they're really asking is: How can I go back to consuming media like I did when I was a kid? When the most context I had or cared about was who the author of my favorite book was, or why I like this actor, or what Ke$ha's real name and birthday is. But as an adult, you're expected to be an ethical consumer of media. And it's somewhat inevitable that some people resent that, because consuming media the way children do is comforting. Consuming media like The Hobbit as an adult is complicated in this day and age, it's hard to do so innocently. I totally understand wanting to return to that innocence, and I don't really have an argument against that worldview other than... That's adulthood.



    But as an adult, you're expected to be an ethical consumer of media.
    And it's somewhat inevitable that some people resent that, because consuming media the way children do is comforting. Consuming media like The Hobbit as an adult is complicated in this day and age, it's hard to do so innocently. I totally understand wanting to return to that innocence, and I don't really have an argument against that worldview other than... That's adulthood.
    Those two statements are a bit condescending.

    As a sidenote, I think it's very ironic that Lindsey recently dedicated an entire video to defending the homophobic Stephanie Meyers and her terrible Twilight Saga, but now she's preaching the value of reading between the lines.

  4. #10924

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    [Deep thoughts and stuff]
    Thank you for that summation and analysis! I thoroughly enjoyed the read :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmetal-lich View Post
    But honestly, it's up to YOU. Where YOU draw your personal lines and boundaries. It is what YOU decide is a bridge too far.

    Creators are human, and humans do fucking stupid shit. Trying to get your "woke points" by being ethical in your consumption is a fools' errand. Honorable sure, but I really think people just need to learn to switch off sometimes.
    If you're taking the "live and let live" approach--as indicated by the "bridge too far" bit--then please refrain from denigrating people who DO want to be socially responsible in their consumption, okay? There's a WHOLE LOT of opinion I could give of people who choose to ignore the ground up skeletons, bodies, spirits and human lives that were required for them to enjoy their [insert cool piece of tech or awesome media extravaganza here]. Or I could just respect that person's choice and keep it moving.

    All that is required is your respect of another consumer's choices; not your opinion. You're free to give it of course, because America, but it's only going to lead to a froth of opinion and discord in return. You respect my choices, I respect yours.

  5. #10925

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirxxx View Post
    Thank you for that summation and analysis! I thoroughly enjoyed the read :-)



    If you're taking the "live and let live" approach--as indicated by the "bridge too far" bit--then please refrain from denigrating people who DO want to be socially responsible in their consumption, okay? There's a WHOLE LOT of opinion I could give of people who choose to ignore the ground up skeletons, bodies, spirits and human lives that were required for them to enjoy their [insert cool piece of tech or awesome media extravaganza here]. Or I could just respect that person's choice and keep it moving.

    All that is required is your respect of another consumer's choices; not your opinion. You're free to give it of course, because America, but it's only going to lead to a froth of opinion and discord in return. You respect my choices, I respect yours.
    I'm from Canada ;P

    If that is how you wish to consume entertainment, then that's great. I respect that, but people who decide otherwise shouldn't be lambasted and strung up because they still like to consume things from people who have done wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KzTxL7 View Post
    I wasn't distracted by Lucy being half naked.

    You won this week Fairy Tail.

  6. #10926

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Those two statements are a bit condescending.

    As a sidenote, I think it's very ironic that Lindsey recently dedicated an entire video to defending the homophobic Stephanie Meyers and her terrible Twilight Saga, but now she's preaching the value of reading between the lines.
    Her entire point was people over hated on the movie because it was written with teenage audience in mind and its flaws were greatly exggerated so tat it became thw worst thing ever and stephanie myers was getting hate mail 24/7 for it, she never said ot was a good movie
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
    So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
    H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
    Spoiler:



  7. #10927

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Those two statements are a bit condescending.
    I'll grant that maybe the way she worded it could come off as condescending, but I didn't take it that way nor do I think it was intended to be taken that way. I took it as her basically just saying that as Adults, we actually see this ethically touchy stuff and have to navigate it while a child doesn't.

    I didn't get a specific judgment call from it. I didn't really read anything she said as "You're bad if you don't decide to boycot this media" as much as just pointing out that as adults, it's hard for us to COMPLETELY ignore it. We see this stuff much more clearly and have to confront it one way or the other, regardless of whether your ultimate decision is to still enjoy the piece of media or not.

    Both you and Halfmetal have copped to this. You've said you're not sure you can enjoy Nostalgia Critic the same again and Halfmetal says that despite his decision to continue supporting it, Ruroni Kenshin will always have a "Black Mark" on it as far as he's concerned.

    That's the only point that's getting made. She didn't go like "If you choose to try to still enjoy these things on any level despite knowing the bad stuff you're a monster!" She just said that basically it was easier to navigate this stuff as a kid when we weren't aware of it at all, and now that we are it's going to have an effect on how we view the media in some way, even if we can ultimately continue to enjoy the media.

    And nobody here seems to be disputing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    As a sidenote, I think it's very ironic that Lindsey recently dedicated an entire video to defending the homophobic Stephanie Meyers and her terrible Twilight Saga, but now she's preaching the value of reading between the lines.
    Except that she never did that. She never defended Stephnie Meyer or claimed Twilight was good, she was specifically addressing the irrational hate Twilight got as an escapist brainless piece of pandering to teen girls while other things that pander to other demographics like the Fast and the Furious movies and the like get a pass as just being a "Fun action flick".

    It didn't defend anything Meyer said or did and it didn't try to say Twilight was good, just "Twilight isn't any worse than any other piece of disposable pandering media, so why was it met with such disproportionate loathing?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmetal-lich View Post
    She makes a good point about how "the art and the artist" is really saying "I want to enjoy things without the political and social baggage." and I get that for some people who want to be "socially responsible" or "woke" might find that difficult.

    But honestly, it's up to YOU. Where YOU draw your personal lines and boundaries. It is what YOU decide is a bridge too far.

    Does what happened to the Hobbit suck? Yeah it does, but I love those movies and I'll watch them gladly.

    Is the Kenshin incident extremely unsettling, and probably has made a black mark on it (for me at least) Yes it is, but I won't deny that Kenshin is a wonderful series.

    Creators are human, and humans do fucking stupid shit. Trying to get your "woke points" by being ethical in your consumption is a fools' errand. Honorable sure, but I really think people just need to learn to switch off sometimes.
    You're being kinda contradictory here. I don't have the concerns I do and I don't choose whether or not to support the things I do because I get "Woke points" and I'm frankly insulted at the insinuation that presents.

    I don't support certain creators or certain works because I have an issue with them, that doesn't necessarily speak to their quality nor do I feel I am required to learn the backstory of and shun each and every problematic thing.


    For example, in High School before I really learned anything about the Author, I read Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game. It's a really good Sci-fi book and I like it. I will never try to say it's bad or that anybody who enjoys the story is immoral or evil or bad for doing so.

    But, I've yet to check out the sequels or the movie or any of the comic adaptations because Orson Scott Card at least used to be* on the board for the National Organization of Marriage and dumped a chunk of his money into it. Meaning, if I support his works and he gets money from that, even if only a fraction of a percentage of what I spent on the book benefits him, I'm still partially contributing to my own oppressors and that doesn't sit right with me.

    *NOTE: He's dropped support for NOM and bowed out of the Marriage discussion following the Supreme Court Decision in 2016, so I'd be open to re-evaluating that stance but I'm using it to demonstrate a point right now.


    Meanwhile, the situation with the Hobbit DOES bother me and truth be told I bought the Blu-ray set before I knew about this so it's somewhat moot, but if I were still thinking about buying the Blu-ray now I fail to see how I could either help or hinder this situation. The ball is already rolling in NZ to get the offending law repealed which is really what needs to be done. Buying or not buying the Hobbit Blu-rays right now will not communicate a message to WB nor would it help rally or hinder support in NZ's parliment to change the law at this point.

    Either way, It wouldn't change my opinion of the films. I think there's one, MAYBE two good movies in there that are weighed down by ridiculous and incredible bloat. After buying the Blu-rays so I DO actually own it, I downloaded a fan-edit that edits all of it down into one 4 hour film with an intermission in the middle and I really enjoy that.

    Knowing the shenanigans the studio got up to does not change my opinion of the quality of the film one single iota. I felt that way before I knew all this.

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  8. #10928

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    They really need to find a better way to comp down quotes.
    Your right Rin. TBH, my woke point jab was probably outta line, but that was a knee-jerk reaction to the smugness ( in my view) of how she presented the last part of her video.

    I guess what I was trying to get at, and did not word correctly was the idea that I say "no thanks" to having to completely blacklisting entertainment because the creator did or said something you don't agree with.

    There are limits to this. Like before I'll never look at Kenshin the same way again, even though I enjoy that series. We have our lines of decency and good conscious, I'll never fault someone for drawing their's closer (or farther) than mine.
    3DS Friendcode: 1177-6707-2664

    Quote Originally Posted by KzTxL7 View Post
    I wasn't distracted by Lucy being half naked.

    You won this week Fairy Tail.

  9. #10929

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Long John Silvers Rayleigh View Post
    Her entire point was people over hated on the movie because it was written with teenage audience in mind and its flaws were greatly exggerated so tat it became thw worst thing ever and stephanie myers was getting hate mail 24/7 for it, she never said ot was a good movie
    But that's the problem... I've seen all of the movies and read/watched a great deal of the criticism. Most of it was valid, and the Mormon-derived messages that the movies and novels intended to pass on to their young fans ranged from inappropriate (pro-abstinence) to laughably bizarre but really uncomfortable (an entire race of violent gay allegory Native Americans who occasionally become pedophiles). I also have a suspicion that the vampires themselves were meant to represent Mormons. They're an object of fear and disgust to the outside world but completely innocent in reality (they're semi-pacifistic and go to great lengths to never hurt humans), and the end goal for the protagonist is to convert and join their group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    I'll grant that maybe the way she worded it could come off as condescending, but I didn't take it that way nor do I think it was intended to be taken that way. I took it as her basically just saying that as Adults, we actually see this ethically touchy stuff and have to navigate it while a child doesn't.

    I didn't get a specific judgment call from it. I didn't really read anything she said as "You're bad if you don't decide to boycot this media" as much as just pointing out that as adults, it's hard for us to COMPLETELY ignore it. We see this stuff much more clearly and have to confront it one way or the other, regardless of whether your ultimate decision is to still enjoy the piece of media or not.

    Both you and Halfmetal have copped to this. You've said you're not sure you can enjoy Nostalgia Critic the same again and Halfmetal says that despite his decision to continue supporting it, Ruroni Kenshin will always have a "Black Mark" on it as far as he's concerned.

    That's the only point that's getting made. She didn't go like "If you choose to try to still enjoy these things on any level despite knowing the bad stuff you're a monster!" She just said that basically it was easier to navigate this stuff as a kid when we weren't aware of it at all, and now that we are it's going to have an effect on how we view the media in some way, even if we can ultimately continue to enjoy the media.

    And nobody here seems to be disputing that.
    I could be wrong. I have issues with defensiveness, and I also tend to overreact to people telling me what I should or shouldn't do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    Except that she never did that. She never defended Stephnie Meyer or claimed Twilight was good, she was specifically addressing the irrational hate Twilight got as an escapist brainless piece of pandering to teen girls while other things that pander to other demographics like the Fast and the Furious movies and the like get a pass as just being a "Fun action flick".

    It didn't defend anything Meyer said or did and it didn't try to say Twilight was good, just "Twilight isn't any worse than any other piece of disposable pandering media, so why was it met with such disproportionate loathing?"
    Twilight was worse than most other disposable pandering media of the time, though. There was definitely an irrational component to the hatedom Twilight amassed after the first movie, but after the second people started becoming more aware of the bizarre, disturbing shit that Stephanie was peddling to kids.

    Edit: I had intended to rewatch Lindsay's Twilight reviews to see if she had actually been unfair to Stephanie Meyer somehow, but she's deleted them all. It really disappoints me that she keeps doing things like that.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; April 23rd, 2018 at 03:14 PM.

  10. #10930

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Lindsay has both preached about the fucked up things Disney is doing/has done, and then gone on a tangent about how super excited she is to go back to Disneyland tomorrow. In fact, she did it a few days ago.

    This isn't a statement of "Admiring art made by bad people makes you a bad person". She has always openly stated that that discussion is hard and impossible to make black and white on videos and twitter. You're still going to enjoy and be inspired by it, no matter what shadows loom over it. Lindsay's main target is the Hobbit, because she didn't like the Hobbit movies much to begin with. It's much easier to for her to turn and say, "These horrible things behind this movie's production has completely destroyed my vision of it."

    People have always found Lindsay to be condescending. She always gets this, "Oh, so if I like this, I'm a bad person?" To which she immediately tweets with a sigh.


    Like what you like, but have realizations of what's wrong with it. Provide more support to the things you love when they do good things, but learn when or if you should step away if it becomes clear that the darkness overwhelms the light. If you can step away.

  11. #10931

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmetal-lich View Post
    Your right Rin. TBH, my woke point jab was probably outta line, but that was a knee-jerk reaction to the smugness ( in my view) of how she presented the last part of her video.

    I guess what I was trying to get at, and did not word correctly was the idea that I say "no thanks" to having to completely blacklisting entertainment because the creator did or said something you don't agree with.

    There are limits to this. Like before I'll never look at Kenshin the same way again, even though I enjoy that series. We have our lines of decency and good conscious, I'll never fault someone for drawing their's closer (or farther) than mine.

    Everyone has a line, and I'm pretty sure that's the point. The whole point is that we as adults see this stuff while kids don't, so no matter what it will pepper our experiences. It's not a judgment on how far people are willing to support in these scenarios as much as it's pointing out that adults know enough about the situation that we even have to have the "Line of Decency" you mentioned while children are blisfully ignorant of all of this stuf fand therefore don't have to worry about said line at all.

    I think that's where the perception of smugness might be coming from? Does it feel like she's calling you a child if you choose to have a more lax line of deceny? Because that's not what I took away from that at all.

    I think she's more talking to the people who decry the need to have a line at all. The people who entirely refuse to acknowledge why someone might be put off by something sorded going on behind the scenes. Basically, the kind of person who would flat out ignore or try to defend Watsuki's crime and will lash out at anybody professing to have a problem with it in an attempt to defend RuroKen.


    While we're on the subject, I think with me, the line is definitely variable, and I do ask myself a few questions about the overall situation.

    1: How influential is the voice of the person or entity I am upset with on the overall product? It's harder for me to "Separate the Artist from the Art" if I know the artist I have a problem with is the primary person sending the message. The story of Ender's Game is ALL Card, and considering the message of the book is actually anti-prejudice, it's hard to read it for me now and not think "Wow, you're such a massive hypocrite". Likewise, James Woods is a massive Homophobic and Transphobic asshole these days, but I'm still watching Justice League Action where he's Lex Luthor because he's just an actor reading lines. Someone else is writing the show and choosing which lines make it in, so I know there will never be a "Lex Luthor rants about transgender people and liberals destroying the country for 5 minutes" scene so I'm fine.

    2: Does any portion of the profit go to actively and directly supporting a cause I find morally reprehensible.
    For this one it usually has to be direct. They need to be directly and intentionally putting forth money towards a really shitty cause. The Hobbit for example is not currently fucking anybody over right now, all the shitty stuff that happened is still happening, but Chik-Fil-A is still giving money to hate groups.

    I don't believe whether or not I buy a copy of the Hobbit right now will affect the thing that happened there at all, but I KNOW if I give money to Chik-Fil-A some of it will go to a hate group.

    3: Is the art actually directly reflective of the thing I don't like?
    Big Bang Theory regularly makes transphobic jokes. This one should be obvious lol.

    But like Insider said, this isn't black and white. Not by a long shot, so it's not possible to be a "Perfectly Woke" person who never supports anything problematic, especially with how many companies do fucked up things. We just have to navigate the best that we can given the circumstances.

    But Lindsay is right, it kinda would be nice to go back to being a kid where I was blissfully unaware so many shitty things happened in the world lol.

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  12. #10932

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Regarding art vs artist:

    The most difficult crossroads for me was when Ian Watkins (lead singer of the Welsh rock band Lostprophets) was convicted as a pedophile.
    Attempted rape / sexual assault / image possession / video evidence etc, it was the whole shebang.

    A hell of a lot of fans understandably lost their shit and threw away their CDs and merch.
    The band's music videos had comments disabled on YouTube due to the arguments and hate comments.
    One of my old school friends, who used to never shut up about Lostprophets, was horrified to the core.


    Yet.... I still have their songs on my ipod.
    It's for my ears only, but the music is still there.
    They are on my huge list of "childhood bands" that gave me a lot of good memories.

    There's one HELL of a black mark on their work now,
    but I just can't bring myself to delete them.
    They mean too much to me, and I still feel pumped when I listen to their heaviest tracks.

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  13. #10933

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    The fact that we're even having these big ass discussions and thinking about it means her video was a success. Though I hesitate to count Roboblue wildly misunderstanding stuff for the fiftieth time as part of the content.

    Lindsay owns, that is all.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    AVGN did an Earthbound episode, and it's a pretty great summary of the game.
    Anyone who somehow hasn't played this game yet, consider this your signal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ5nX0FTH6Q

  14. #10934

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Channel Awesome just uploaded another new NC episode. Three weeks in a row is extremely unusual.

  15. #10935

    Default Re: AVGN, Channel Awful, and other web review shows

    Burning them off most likely.
    Complicating things since 2009.

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