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Thread: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

  1. #641

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by camey View Post
    Even if there is, i predict that the person is a well-known and already got bounty by marine.
    Based on what?

    161616161161616161616

    Purely coincidence

  2. #642

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    It's 7.9, I had to dig for it, lol.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...m_for_Japanese
    Sorry, what exactly is this 2.9 theory in relation to One Piece and new crewmates?

    EDIT: Quick Google search helped me out- linking here for anyone who might be interested

    https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/391q6w/crazy_japanese_nakama_theory/

    This is interesting but I don't know that Oda is necessarily thinking about this when he plots the story and thinks of characters he wants to write- or Maybe he is. Who am I to know.




  3. #643

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvocadoInTheRain View Post
    You still going on about this? I thought everyone had given up on that point by now. Even Robby has accepted Pedro's death.
    Don't use me to make your arguments.

    I have accepted that Oda wants us to believe that one for a change, and its not worth arguing about for the next four of five years till the end of Elbaf. (Unlike say Monet, who is alive and well, tardiness of cover story be damned.)

    Oda still failed to sell the scene in the moment, which is something he is typically good at, and tried to rush and force in the emotion in a two panel flashback afterwards, rather than working and really building up to it like he normally does for big death scenes and has managed consistently for every flashback, Ace, and Whitebeard.

    I'm still not fully convinced till we see the end of Big Mom's involvement and what happened to Pekoms. The cake arc as a whole ended on a downer, lots of sacrifices. Pedro, Pekoms, Pound, King Baum, Sanji's family, fishmen including Jinbei. We know almost all of those are going to be fine.

    He also wanted us to believe that Vivi's lifelong friend and mentor Igram was dead, and he stayed dead for a very long time. Toto and Pell's "deaths", less dragged out.

    Oda is still Oda at the end of the day.

  4. #644

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Badass SnoCone View Post
    Sorry, what exactly is this 2.9 theory in relation to One Piece and new crewmates?

    EDIT: Quick Google search helped me out- linking here for anyone who might be interested

    https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/391q6w/crazy_japanese_nakama_theory/

    This is interesting but I don't know that Oda is necessarily thinking about this when he plots the story and thinks of characters he wants to write- or Maybe he is. Who am I to know.



    I mean it seems a liitle too deliberate to be unplanned coinidences. But i do find the number theory interesting.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  5. #645
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmaIvanoM View Post
    But there’s a story going on... Unless Carrot’s story completely doesn’t happen then what the point of slotting her into a story she wasn’t needed in... All the Strawhats except Zoro got shafted intentionally... This sort of argument makes me wonder, like at least give a reason why Carrot could’ve been added to this Okobore Town story with Tama... Don’t just create a fictional criteria with no back up... So tell me how Carrot would’ve been fitted into this Tama story when all the other Strawhats wouldn’t.
    By being in the same area as Luffy when the ship crashed and being with him during it?

  6. #646

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Pedro is dead. Some of you people need to accept it. Regardless of how Oda' "sold" it, all of the signs were always there. You just chose to ignore them. His death not only inspired the SHs + Carrot to action, but it also served as passing of the baton on to Carrot. They all lamented his death and it (finally) served as a stark reminder that taking on an emperor has its consequences.

    That moment that Carrot and Sanji shared was pivotal for both of them. Plus, Carrot has yet to share the news with the rest of the minks. After all of the story impacts his death has/will have, there's no way Oda will say, "Lol. Just kidding." He could get away with that with minor characters with the fake out "deaths" (i.e., those where someone allegedly dies, but their death doesn't fit the pattern of a traditional Oda death), but he couldn't get away with Pedro somehow being alive.

  7. #647

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Badass SnoCone View Post
    Sorry, what exactly is this 2.9 theory in relation to One Piece and new crewmates?

    EDIT: Quick Google search helped me out- linking here for anyone who might be interested

    https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/391q6w/crazy_japanese_nakama_theory/

    This is interesting but I don't know that Oda is necessarily thinking about this when he plots the story and thinks of characters he wants to write- or Maybe he is. Who am I to know.
    I'd say the theory is probable (if not near certainty).

    I'd like to point out that proto-Robin was a plant lover and so his DF abilities might have been a literal "flower flower" fruit. Robin's flower flower fruit however is much more poetically named and less literal compared to other DF fruits.

    Also picking up random DF numbers to add up to 325 is mathematically improbable and more than just coincidence. So I'd say a 2.9 DF user in the crew is extremely likely.

    I'd keep an open mind though. Maybe Kinemon has a 2.9 fruit, Kuma has a 2.9 fruit but that doesn't guarantee they'll have it forever. Maybe a current or future Strawhat gains a DF during the course of the series. I guess we could have a 2.0 fruit user and 9 fruit users, although that seems unlikely to me.

  8. #648

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by S.C. Amigo View Post
    By being in the same area as Luffy when the ship crashed and being with him during it?
    So basically she would be a tag along? And why would the rest of the Strawhats still be shafted if Carrot’s only point was to be a tag along. What’s stopping Chopper from being a tag along too? Or Nami, or all of them.

  9. #649
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Pedro is dead. Some of you people need to accept it.
    We know that homies inherit the personality of their infused soul (the cannonballs having different reactions to being shot out of the cannon portraits that nicely) and Pedro had the vast portion of his lifespan/souljuice sucked out of him.
    So I actually believe that both sides may be right: Pedro is dead and at the same time he isn't.

    The Leopard Mink got blasted to bits, but we (the readers) may see him again in the form of a homie. I don't know if it will be relevant or even revealed to the protagonists, but I can absolutely see it being played in a coverstory/decks of the world issue.

    It's one of those super rare cases where Oda gets to eat the cake and have it. A death, but not really a death. Some emotional weight, but at the same time relief (for the younger readers or just in general).


  10. #650

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    We know that homies inherit the personality of their infused soul (the cannonballs having different reactions to being shot out of the cannon portraits that nicely)
    Huh, when did we learn that

  11. #651

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    Pedro is dead. Some of you people need to accept it. Regardless of how Oda' "sold" it, all of the signs were always there. You just chose to ignore them. His death not only inspired the SHs + Carrot to action, but it also served as passing of the baton on to Carrot. They all lamented his death and it (finally) served as a stark reminder that taking on an emperor has its consequences.

    That moment that Carrot and Sanji shared was pivotal for both of them. Plus, Carrot has yet to share the news with the rest of the minks. After all of the story impacts his death has/will have, there's no way Oda will say, "Lol. Just kidding." He could get away with that with minor characters with the fake out "deaths" (i.e., those where someone allegedly dies, but their death doesn't fit the pattern of a traditional Oda death), but he couldn't get away with Pedro somehow being alive.
    Igaram died in front of the strawhats and Vivi grieved. Pell died in front of everyone, and as far they know, he's still dead. Going Merry died, and it's been confirmed now that its spirit passed onto Sunny. Bon Kurei is dead, far as Luffy knows. Sabo died, and Luffy spent his entire life thinking he was dead until he wasn't. Every one of the CP9 were blasted to hell by the buster call until they weren't. A pirate bit off his tongue in front of a crowd, died, and the strawhats noted "how harsh", and he's fine.

    Fake out deaths are the rule. Actual deaths are a really rare exception. There's only been two in present day, three if you count the boat. If Pedro is in fact permanently number 4, Oda didn't play it up nearly as well or as strongly as he has those other times. And especially in an arc where dozens of other allies were also left for dead.

    The only difference this time is Oda actually brought it up again after the fact, which he never does, and that's what gives it some credence and why its not worth arguing about it, because he could mean it this time I guess, because that detail is different. But given the overall downer ending of the Arc, he might well change his mind three or four years down the line when it no longer matters to the story and "almost dead" impacted the story just as well as "actually dead."

  12. #652
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blissed View Post
    Huh, when did we learn that
    Nowhere, that's my conclusion based on their behavior. Why else would each cannonball have a different personality and even different features, if not based on the source material? They were all just balls of metal, the other component is souljuice/lifespan.
    And of course there are Big Mom's homies made out of her own soul, each showing personality traits of her.

    I'm not saying that there is a chance that Pedro might literally reincarnate as a 1:1 copy, I think that would be kinda tasteless, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get a "Decks of the World" issue with a one-eyed homie living a happy homie life somewhere on Totland, possibly with Pound or so.


  13. #653

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    We know that homies inherit the personality of their infused soul (the cannonballs having different reactions to being shot out of the cannon portraits that nicely) and Pedro had the vast portion of his lifespan/souljuice sucked out of him.
    So I actually believe that both sides may be right: Pedro is dead and at the same time he isn't.

    The Leopard Mink got blasted to bits, but we (the readers) may see him again in the form of a homie. I don't know if it will be relevant or even revealed to the protagonists, but I can absolutely see it being played in a coverstory/decks of the world issue.

    It's one of those super rare cases where Oda gets to eat the cake and have it. A death, but not really a death. Some emotional weight, but at the same time relief (for the younger readers or just in general).
    That’s sick you know... That’s basically Oda dancing around with a dead person’s memory... all the homies are basically Bog Mom’s slaves you know... the only time they act otherwise is when Pudding messes with their memories(and that’s temporary) and when Big Mom herself has a problem... So Oda going ou of his way to highlight that everything left of Pedro is a slave of Momma is just sick

  14. #654

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Nowhere, that's my conclusion based on their behavior. Why else would each cannonball have a different personality and even different features, if not based on the source material? They were all just balls of metal, the other component is souljuice/lifespan.
    And of course there are Big Mom's homies made out of her own soul, each showing personality traits of her.

    I'm not saying that there is a chance that Pedro might literally reincarnate as a 1:1 copy, I think that would be kinda tasteless, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get a "Decks of the World" issue with a one-eyed homie living a happy homie life somewhere on Totland, possibly with Pound or so.
    Not really sure how the cannonballs are supposed to confirm anything, they were one-note like many of the other Homies were. The only real thing we can look towards is Big Mom's souls, since we actually know where they came from. The only one IMO that arguably displayed aspects of her personality is Zeus and his gluttony regarding the clouds. I don't recall anything from Prometheus and Napoleon that made it obvious that they came from her. Zombies they are not.

    Well anyways, I only asked to begin with because aside from not recalling that ever being explicitly stated, I was working under the assumption that you did think that a theoretical "Pedro homie" would be a 1:1 personality-wise. But if that's not the case, then I'll just drop it I guess. Not like I see Oda ever doing that anyways.

    That said, I wouldn't agree at all that that would be a relief for readers or his friends/family, especially given what we know of the Homies, but that's just me. Especially if he's still at Totland.

  15. #655
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmaIvanoM View Post
    That’s sick you know... That’s basically Oda dancing around with a dead person’s memory... all the homies are basically Bog Mom’s slaves you know... the only time they act otherwise is when Pudding messes with their memories(and that’s temporary) and when Big Mom herself has a problem... So Oda going ou of his way to highlight that everything left of Pedro is a slave of Momma is just sick
    Nah it will be cute, trust me.

    It's one of those things you shouldn't overthink too much. Just like Jinbe (a protagonist) waltzing into a hotel to kidnap some sentient donuts... only to throw them into Big Mom's throat shortly after.
    It's okay because they enjoyed it, and so will homie Pedro.


  16. #656

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Igaram died in front of the strawhats and Vivi grieved. Pell died in front of everyone, and as far they know, he's still dead. Going Merry died, and it's been confirmed now that its spirit passed onto Sunny. Bon Kurei is dead, far as Luffy knows. Sabo died, and Luffy spent his entire life thinking he was dead until he wasn't. Every one of the CP9 were blasted to hell by the buster call until they weren't. A pirate bit off his tongue in front of a crowd, died, and the strawhats noted "how harsh", and he's fine.

    Fake out deaths are the rule. Actual deaths are a really rare exception. There's only been two in present day, three if you count the boat. If Pedro is in fact permanently number 4, Oda didn't play it up nearly as well or as strongly as he has those other times. And especially in an arc where dozens of other allies were also left for dead.

    The only difference this time is Oda actually brought it up again after the fact, which he never does, and that's what gives it some credence and why its not worth arguing about it, because he could mean it this time I guess, because that detail is different. But given the overall downer ending of the Arc, he might well change his mind three or four years down the line when it no longer matters to the story and "almost dead" impacted the story just as well as "actually dead."
    Let me save you the trouble of having to continue this argument my friend. We all know what Oda’s like and that’s not what this argument is actually about. It’s about the fact that TO CARROT as of now Pedro is dead. She doesn’t but know she’s in a story where the writer does shit like the Pell stuff. Are you understanding this? You keep ignoring this situation as being a moment in Carrot’s character progression as if she’s going to respond by saying, “Oda will be Oda” when she sees Pedro go upbin flames. And that’s why I couldn’t take your argument seriously. Even if Pedro does survive, how the hell would he get out of Totland. Even if he is shown to be alive, if the whole of Wano arc goes by when Carrot doesn’t know this, her character progression will be still based off his death... I don’t know if you get why this argument of yours is inconsequential to what we’re saying but that’s it... that’s the best I can help you dude. If you want to keep spiraling with this baseless argument then feel free to do so but at least now you know why it won’t go anywhere

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Nah it will be cute, trust me.

    It's one of those things you shouldn't overthink too much. Just like Jinbe (a protagonist) waltzing into a hotel to kidnap some sentient donuts... only to throw them into Big Mom's throat shortly after.
    It's okay because they enjoyed it, and so will homie Pedro.
    The homies are disposable by nature... and that’s why Pedro also becoming disposable is even worse. Because we actually knew him before this. His life was forfeited by his own volition specifically because he was a depressed dude who thought his life had essentially been wasted when they stole 50 years of it... the guy literally says shit like “it’s nice to be bait”.,: this guy was looking for any way whatsoever to go out with a semblance of purpose in his life... And the end result is that he becomes a disposable dancing monkey for his enemies??? This is plain insulting to his memory no matter how Oda spins it.

    I know that Pedro’s life force must exist somewhere in Totland if Momma has me eaten it yet but Oda would have to go as far as getting Pudding involved to somehow highlight Pedro’s existence and that to me is him taking a bad joke too far

  17. #657

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Igaram died in front of the strawhats and Vivi grieved. Pell died in front of everyone, and as far they know, he's still dead. Going Merry died, and it's been confirmed now that its spirit passed onto Sunny. Bon Kurei is dead, far as Luffy knows. Sabo died, and Luffy spent his entire life thinking he was dead until he wasn't. Every one of the CP9 were blasted to hell by the buster call until they weren't. A pirate bit off his tongue in front of a crowd, died, and the strawhats noted "how harsh", and he's fine.

    Fake out deaths are the rule. Actual deaths are a really rare exception. There's only been two in present day, three if you count the boat. If Pedro is in fact permanently number 4, Oda didn't play it up nearly as well or as strongly as he has those other times. And especially in an arc where dozens of other allies were also left for dead.

    The only difference this time is Oda actually brought it up again after the fact, which he never does, and that's what gives it some credence and why its not worth arguing about it, because he could mean it this time I guess, because that detail is different. But given the overall downer ending of the Arc, he might well change his mind three or four years down the line when it no longer matters to the story and "almost dead" impacted the story just as well as "actually dead."
    I don't know why you always go back to those instances where Oda clearly wanted the reader to believe those characters were dead. None of them were foreshadowed like Pedro's. You (and many others) just didn't see it because you were drawn into Oda's constant recycling of fake out deaths. I don't blame anyone for assuming this was just another one, but the clues were obviously there.

    First of all, he admitted that he didn't know how much longer he had to live. His main reasoning for even going back was to help them find the poneglyph as he believed it would'vehelped them bring about the dawn he'd been searching for for most of his life. A character admitting that they probably don't have much longer to live is easier to kill off. None of the people you mentioned stated this. It also wasn't a coincidence that he died at the same place his friend Zepo did.

    Secondly, once Pedro gained confidence in the SHs and their ability to bring about the dawn he'd been waiting for, he basically accomplished his dream. There was nothing left for his character after that. There was no guarantee that he would've been able to see the dawn he wanted anyway given the fact that he didn't have long to live.

    Third, he was able to pass on his will to Carrot. Like Ace and Whitebeard, he was able to impart some words of wisdom or words with meaning before he died. Unlike almost all of the fake out deaths you mentioned, none of them did that. The only one I can recall is Bon Kurei, but his alleged death didn't have any of the other characteristics I'm listing.

    Fourth, his death wasn't off-paneled. We saw him say his goodbyes and we saw the explosion. Like Ace before him, he sacrificed himself in order to protect those close to him. We saw the aftermath and the damage done to Perospero. Knowing that he lost an arm after using his ability to protect himself, you should know that there was no way for Pedro to survive a blast that large without any abilities or way to escape.

    Fifth, the SHs openly lamented his death. Unless most of those fakeout deaths, we've never seen all of the SHs so sad over losing someone close to them. They all acknowledged that Pedro died to save them. It's what spurred Luffy to action and it's what caused Jinbe to call them to honor his sacrifice. The SHs on the ship weren't the only ones to tell us he was dead, but Perospero, Pekoms, Sanji, and more did as well. Everyone was basically screaming in your face "Pedro's dead." True to Oda's standards, it wasn't a pointless death. His death had significance. It bought them time to escape and they made the most of it by actually escaping.

    Lastly, his death will have an impact on multiple characters including Carrot, Inu, Neko, and minks everywhere. It'll likely spur Carrot on to taking up his goal and ensuring that the SHs bring about the new dawn he was willing to die for.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; October 12th, 2018 at 11:56 PM.

  18. #658
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Excellently writen, BobLoblaw!



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  19. #659

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmaIvanoM View Post
    We all know what Oda’s like and that’s not what this argument is actually about. It’s about the fact that TO CARROT as of now Pedro is dead.
    If the audience is supposed to take a character's death as a tragic turning point, then the audience ALSO has to believe that character is dead. Look at Franky's mentor Tom. He might actually still be alive and in Impel Down somewhere. But we haven't seen him, we don't know, so we have to believe he actually is dead, as he is to Franky.

    Knowing they're alive undercuts any long term change for the reader. It changes the entire tone and meaning from "permanent sacrifice" to "temporary sadness with a happy ending", and its WHY people are so annoyed with Oda's nodeath policy, because it gets in the way of their sense of disbelief, while also weakening the villains and lessening the achievements of the heroes. As it did with all of Vivi's friends, and it just leads to the reader wanting to know when they meet up again.


    She doesn’t but know she’s in a story where the writer does shit like the Pell stuff. Are you understanding this? You keep ignoring this situation as being a moment in Carrot’s character progression as if she’s going to respond by saying, “Oda will be Oda” when she sees Pedro go upbin flames.
    Yes, but the READERS do. We have to understand the author. That overrides anything the characters might want or do, and adds that layer to anything they say. The author puts words in their mouths and actions in their bodies. If the author doesn't kill, then the author doesn't kill, and that affects the emotions you have in response to any scenario and what you ultimately expect the outcome to be.

    It's like people keep asking the question "well why would Oda just put this extra character in the middle of things?" and completely ignore the legitimate answer of "because Oda likes having large casts and new people for the strawhats to play off of." ANd they then have to stick with "No, it's because Carrot is special"and then ignore the Jonny and Yosakus and Hancocks and Bon Clays and Paulies and Wipers that were the same exact thing. That is NOT the reason, because she is not an independent sentient creature.

    If you must go to instory character reactions, Vivi saw Igaram die. In almost the exact same circumstances. And then Pell. It pushed her some but she still got them back in the end and it didn't completely change her life's course.

    And that’s why I couldn’t take your argument seriously. Even if Pedro does survive, how the hell would he get out of Totland.
    Same way as Pekoms I'd imagine. Or Pound, King Baum, Jinbe and all the fishmen, or the Vinsmokes.

    How did Prospero survive the blast that specifically meant to take him out with only a wound that he was able to ignore with no real problem for the entire night?

    Even if he is shown to be alive, if the whole of Wano arc goes by when Carrot doesn’t know this, her character progression will be still based off his death... I don’t know if you get why this argument of yours is inconsequential to what we’re saying but that’s it...
    Vivi went all of Little Garden, Drum, and Alabasta thinking Igaram was dead. It didn't make her any more a strawhat in the end. Franky thought his entire family died on Enies Lobby. Luffy thought Sabo was dead for a decade and still thinks Bon is dead. Did it matter that Luffy didn't know his bounty had been raised when the readers already did? Did it matter that Luffy never actually got the indepth flashbacks we readers got to see for Nami or Jinbe or Law or for the history of Skypeia, when that information was their for our emotional hook and benefit?

    Does it matter that Carrots flashback with Pedro was two panels long and done after the fact to try and add attachment and weight that wasn't there before the scene? When Oda had dozens of chapters to create a bond between the two and didn't do it except as an afterthought?

    It DOESN'T MATTER for the actual overall story what the characters think, when its about what the audience knows, and how the author tells the story and what he shows us It only really matters what the characters think when they make a wrong choice based on bad information... and that's usually something the audience already knows as well, like when Luffy initially ignored Ace's fading vivre card, or when Sabo led the blackbeard pirates back to his base.

    Character motivation is important for feeling for the characters, or getting behind them, but it's not the same thing as overall narrative and the story the author is telling. The author and how they work, and have consistently worked for over 20 years, is more important than how any character feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    I don't know why you always go back to those instances where Oda clearly wanted the reader to believe those characters were dead. None of them were foreshadowed like Pedro's. You (and many others) just didn't see it because you were drawn into Oda's constant recycling of fake out deaths.
    Because, I was there back when Igaram, Pell, Pagaya and Bellamy fake outs weren't the norm. At the point in the series Oda DID have the stones to actually kill characters, they really were actually DEAD and you could believe it at that point.

    That was the threshhold point. At that time, he still wrote as if he were actually killing them, and the emotions actually rang true. Before he changed his entire mindset so consistently based on the target audience and started making every pull back a fake out. But flashback deaths he still made feel potent every single time... except for Sabo's. Sabo he completely failed to put any real setup or emotion into... because it was a fakeout. He had Luffy and Ace cry for a couple panels after that, but he didn't milk it quite the same way he did other deaths.

    Same thing goes for Monet in present day. Sure maybe she died, but then why did her own sister never say anything, why was there no real effect felt from it?

    First of all, he admitted that he didn't know how much longer he had to live.
    Because he had 50 years magicked away by someone, not because he actually felt old. Super easy to fix after Big Mom is dealt with in whatever fashion she is dealt with, however Oda feels like by whatever arbitrary undefined rules homies and life force have.

    His main reasoning for even going back was to help them find the poneglyph as he believed it would'vehelped them bring about the dawn he'd been searching for for most of his life. A character admitting that they probably don't have much longer to live is easier to kill off. None of the people you mentioned stated this. It also wasn't a coincidence that he died at the same place his friend Zepo did.

    Secondly, once Pedro gained confidence in the SHs and their ability to bring about the dawn he'd been waiting for, he basically accomplished his dream. There was nothing left for his character after that. There was no guarantee that he would've been able to see the dawn he wanted anyway given the fact that he didn't have long to live.
    Sure, but won't it be a happier party at the end if the character we all thought was dead, turns out to be alive and shows back up with Pekoms, and he gets to actually see that dream happen? That's a way happier celebration than one where you have to dwell even a little on the person that died.


    Third, he was able to pass on his will to Carrot. Like Ace and Whitebeard, he was able to impart some words of wisdom or words with meaning before he died. Unlike almost all of the fake out deaths you mentioned, none of them did that. The only one I can recall is Bon Kurei, but his alleged death didn't have any of the other characteristics I'm listing.

    Fourth, his death wasn't off-paneled. We saw him say his goodbyes and we saw the explosion.
    Where's the body? Where's the on-screen mortal wound? Explosions are worthless in one piece. They create big clouds of smoke and allow characters to, say, get pushed under the water and then float to the surface a little bit later under safety on a different island. And then maybe get taken in by someone that can treat them, or look at what happens to be a full moon and get energized.

    Like Ace before him, he sacrificed himself in order to protect those close to him. We saw the aftermath and the damage done to Perospero. Knowing that he lost an arm after using his ability to protect himself, you should know that there was no way for Pedro to survive a blast that large without any abilities or way to escape.
    We ACTUALLY saw Ace die. Oda even made it extra clear with the vivre card. We ACTUALLY saw Whitebeard die. We saw graves for them later. We saw Going Merry burning.

    ....And Prospero tanking the exact same attack that was meant to take him out shows it wasn't THAT fatal.

    Fifth, the SHs openly lamented his death. Unless most of those fakeout deaths, we've never seen all of the SHs so sad over losing someone close to them. They all acknowledged that Pedro died to save them. It's what spurred Luffy to action and it's what caused Jinbe to call them to honor his sacrifice. The SHs on the ship weren't the only ones to tell us he was dead, but Perospero, Pekoms, Sanji, and more did as well. Everyone was basically screaming in your face "Pedro's dead."
    That is the only actual difference. That is the reason I'm willing to agree that he's maybe actually dead, and that Oda actually wants us to really believe it, because he's treated it differenty after the fact.

    But I will not be surprised in the least if he turns up fine after we deal with Big Mom again. Certainly not until we see what happened to Pekoms. There is pleeeeenty of wiggle room with Oda's logic of how characters survive whatever they need to survive.

    True to Oda's standards, it wasn't a pointless death. His death had significance. It bought them time to escape and they made the most of it by actually escaping.
    Except it wasn't. They were still trapped for the next 20 chapters, and other characters, Pound, Pekoms, the fishmen, and vinsmokes all made similar stalling sacrifices (and Bon in past arcs) and none of them are dead. If his was the final sacrfice, THE thing that allowed THE escape, I'd agree. But it was just one stall among many, one sacrifice among many, and in the middle. Like it was to ramp up the tension, raise the stakes, rather than finish them.

    It makes the story sadder and more poigniant for right now to have him "officially dead", but does it add anything when its time to have the party at the end of the trail a few years down the line?

    Lastly, his death will have an impact on multiple characters including Carrot, Inu, Neko, and minks everywhere. It'll likely spur Carrot on to taking up his goal and ensuring that the SHs bring about the new dawn he was willing to die for.
    Sure, and if we see Carrot relaying the information to the other minks and them also mourning about it, and we find out what happened to Pekoms, then that probably settles it. But if it just sort of doesn't come up or gets glossed over in a sentence and we get one panel reactions and then move on?


    It's not about how the characters feel, or how the readers feel, or the stakes of the story. Shanks is doomed and that one is going to stick for sure and be super sad. But Oda's preferences override everything else. Even when it would be more satisfying and BETTER for the story in every regard for a character to die, Oda just has a really hard time with that. Heck, that's pretty much the entire reason Sabo exists, to lessen the blow of Ace which was one the story HAD to have, and Oda admits that Ace was literally created to die.

    There is nothing about Pekoms being forever dead that changes the story any more than him being dead for a week does, and that's threshold enough for Oda. I don't want it to be the case, I'd prefer if he were dead because that raises stakes from here on out some, but... the same arc had dozens of other fake outs and Oda hasn't willingly let anyone stay dead any longer than the story absolutely demanded in decades.
    Last edited by Robby; October 13th, 2018 at 02:18 AM.

  20. #660

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)

    Hi, I'm back to the thread! Time to discuss all these new nakama candidates and info and... oh, it's about Pedro's death again. Nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    If the audience is supposed to take a character's death as a tragic turning point, then the audience ALSO has to believe that character is dead. Look at Franky's mentor Tom. He might actually still be alive and in Impel Down somewhere. But we haven't seen him, we don't know, so we have to believe he actually is dead, as he is to Franky.
    Not the best way to start your post saying that we don't have a way to prove that Tom is alive but buying it because of the narrative and the belief of a character.

    Knowing they're alive undercuts any long term change for the reader. It changes the entire tone and meaning from "permanent sacrifice" to "temporary sadness with a happy ending", and its WHY people are so annoyed with Oda's nodeath policy, because it gets in the way of their sense of disbelief, while also weakening the villains and lessening the achievements of the heroes. As it did with all of Vivi's friends, and it just leads to the reader wanting to know when they meet up again.
    That's perfectly true.

    But this feeling, when the character being alive is not confirmed, is unintended by the author and the storytelling. It's artificial. Oda fakes out deaths because he wants us to believe that a certain character is dead, not because he wants you to be the smartest in the room and figure out that it's alive.

    Yes, but the READERS do. We have to understand the author. That overrides anything the characters might want or do, and adds that layer to anything they say. The author puts words in their mouths and actions in their bodies. If the author doesn't kill, then the author doesn't kill, and that affects the emotions you have in response to any scenario and what you ultimately expect the outcome to be.
    But Oda DOES kill. At this point, as much or even more as he's faked deaths. That's why there is uncertainty to whether a character is dead or not. If he didn't kill, we would know for certain that Pedro is alive. But then you have Ace, Whitebeard, the flashback deaths...

    It's like people keep asking the question "well why would Oda just put this extra character in the middle of things?" and completely ignore the legitimate answer of "because Oda likes having large casts and new people for the strawhats to play off of." ANd they then have to stick with "No, it's because Carrot is special"and then ignore the Jonny and Yosakus and Hancocks and Bon Clays and Paulies and Wipers that were the same exact thing. That is NOT the reason, because she is not an independent sentient creature.
    This is so dumb I can't believe I'm reading it from a person with a brain.

    No, Oda doesn't just like having large casts and new people for the Straw Hats to play off of. What a disrespect to an author that gives a backstory and a set of motivations to a random noble girl in Water 7 (best girl actually). Every character there is fleshed out with motivations to be there, they weren't just for Oda or the readers having fun with a large cast. Even Johnny and Yosaku who ended up in the ship by chance were impacted by the SHs and the adventure and shifted their life decisions accordingly.

    If you must go to instory character reactions, Vivi saw Igaram die. In almost the exact same circumstances. And then Pell. It pushed her some but she still got them back in the end and it didn't completely change her life's course.
    Vivi saw a ship get blown up. Carrot saw Pedro get blown up. There's a little difference. Pell is actually the valid counterexample here, and even then he just flew away much further than Pedro was from Carrot the moment of the explosion.

    And neither Igaram nor Pell changed a bit of Vivi's motivations with their (fake) deaths. Not that this is a definitive sign, but you know, I wanted to point it out because if we are dealing with significance the significance of these deaths for Vivi's character arc is more sadness and suffering through her chase of an objective that is already set. At least Pagaya "dying" had to change something in Conis' mind to go badass in the sky island.

    Same way as Pekoms I'd imagine. Or Pound, King Baum, Jinbe and all the fishmen, or the Vinsmokes.
    Uh, King Baum is probably alive by the mere fact he already survived being cut in half. The biology of Big Mom's souls is kinda sorta fishy.

    Pekoms is in the same island as the Vinsmokes, Jinbe and all the fishmen. They could all survive together or they could all die together.

    Pound is not expected to be alive. You are grouping him here for some reason I don't understand. He was a nobody to everyone in there except a 1-year-old, nobody cared for his survival, and certainly not Oven.

    Pedro is in another island which is Big Mom's core territory, which takes like 10 hours (I don't recall how much it was so let's say that) to reach in a sea infested with enemies and in chapter 903 we already saw that Big Mom and at least a few of his family were in that island. In addition to this, we know that a couple enemies could check the area. Perospero himself when he emerged from the smoke and was the closest to Pedro, and Prometheus (subsequently Zeus) when he went there to eat the fire. The chances of Pedro being alive are already slim, the chances of him getting out of the island rely on him either being perfectly capable, which the narrative hasn't hinted the least to, or Caesar somehow feeling empathy and saving him in a perfectly out of character way.

    How did Prospero survive the blast that specifically meant to take him out with only a wound that he was able to ignore with no real problem for the entire night?
    He specifically mentions "candy armor".

    And losing an arm resulted in a loss of blood that resulted in a loss of stamina. That was seen later in the arc. That it took so long for him to notice the effects speaks wonders about his durability, he's a veteran after all.

    Vivi went all of Little Garden, Drum, and Alabasta thinking Igaram was dead. It didn't make her any more a strawhat in the end. Franky thought his entire family died on Enies Lobby. Luffy thought Sabo was dead for a decade and still thinks Bon is dead. Did it matter that Luffy didn't know his bounty had been raised when the readers already did? Did it matter that Luffy never actually got the indepth flashbacks we readers got to see for Nami or Jinbe or Law or for the history of Skypeia, when that information was their for our emotional hook and benefit?
    Are you denying anything of the phrase you quoted? Because it doesn't seem so...

    Yeah, fake deaths can have narrative and emotional significance. They can change people and move them forward.

    Does it matter that Carrots flashback with Pedro was two panels long and done after the fact to try and add attachment and weight that wasn't there before the scene? When Oda had dozens of chapters to create a bond between the two and didn't do it except as an afterthought?
    Uh... just because the attachment and weight wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it hadn't been shown to us.

    When you have a flashback that specifically tells you that Pedro had a mentoring relationship with Carrot, when you later have statements like "Pedro trained me for Sulong", and etc. you are supposed to believe that there is an attachment. That's what the story is saying, and it doesn't matter that it didn't say anything before, except perhaps it hinted in a couple moments, but let's ignore that little thing.

    It DOESN'T MATTER for the actual overall story what the characters think, when its about what the audience knows, and how the author tells the story and what he shows us It only really matters what the characters think when they make a wrong choice based on bad information... and that's usually something the audience already knows as well, like when Luffy initially ignored Ace's fading vivre card, or when Sabo led the blackbeard pirates back to his base.
    Seriously what the fuck am I reading xD

    It DOES MATTER for the actual overall story what the characters think. Stop ignoring diegesis in the construction of a storyline. This is such a dumb argument. Luffy's belief that Bon Clay was dead, even if he wasn't dead, had an effect in the course of the story. It reaffirmed his will. Luffy's belief that Sabo was dead, even if he wasn't dead, had an effect in his life decisions and therefore in the overall story.

    Character motivation is important for feeling for the characters, or getting behind them, but it's not the same thing as overall narrative and the story the author is telling. The author and how they work, and have consistently worked for over 20 years, is more important than how any character feels.
    IT'S THE SAME THING. IT'S PART OF THE OVERALL NARRATIVE. MOTIVATIONS LEAD TO DECISIONS AND DECISIONS LEAD TO ADVANCEMENT OF THE PLOT.

    I don't believe what I'm reading. That's beyond death of the author. That's death of the narrative you are claiming here.

    Because, I was there back when Igaram, Pell, Pagaya and Bellamy fake outs weren't the norm. At the point in the series Oda DID have the stones to actually kill characters, they really were actually DEAD and you could believe it at that point.
    Merry ended up alive long before all of them. So did Gin.

    It's fine that you were back there, but your nostalgia glasses are clouding your visions. Fakeout deaths were a thing long before Igaram and Pell, and Oda DIDN'T show to have the stones to actually kill characters beyond flashbacks if that's what you are basing your statements on. Is Pudding Pudding even confirmed dead by the story?

    At that time, he still wrote as if he were actually killing them, and the emotions actually rang true. Before he changed his entire mindset so consistently based on the target audience and started making every pull back a fake out. But flashback deaths he still made feel potent every single time... except for Sabo's. Sabo he completely failed to put any real setup or emotion into... because it was a fakeout. He had Luffy and Ace cry for a couple panels after that, but he didn't milk it quite the same way he did other deaths.
    "So consistently"

    Dude half of this "consistency" is the audience pulling an "Oda did it again" before we even get a confirmation about the character being either alive or dead. Specially lately, when people keep bringing the likes of Monet and Pedro under the assumption that Oda is following a trend. Since it's Oda, they need to be alive, and being alive confirms the trend. You know how this argument is called. It starts with "circular" and it ends with "reasoning".

    Same thing goes for Monet in present day. Sure maybe she died, but then why did her own sister never say anything, why was there no real effect felt from it?
    A bit problematic what you are trying here, since fake deaths can and at times do have a real effect (Sabo is the clearest). We didn't know about the psyche of Sugar either way or her viewpoints in life, so it's not like we got a fleshed out character and then could decide that Monet's death didn't affect her. And it's not like the death of her sister would excuse her from ignoring her duties anyway.

    Because he had 50 years magicked away by someone, not because he actually felt old. Super easy to fix after Big Mom is dealt with in whatever fashion she is dealt with, however Oda feels like by whatever arbitrary undefined rules homies and life force have.
    So you are basing your beliefs that Pedro is alive in the uncertainty of how homies work. Just because there is a mystery and an uncertainty doesn't make any alternative plausible, and doesn't give you a justification to believe that anything in however vast your imagination is can and will happen.

    Super easy to fix, yeah. And that's why various alternatives have been debunked already. You can think of more, of course. That doesn't make it "super easy to fix", that just means that you can imagine scenarios with little to zero hinting. I can do that as well. For instance, we'll meet the stronger version of the time time fruit, one that allows to travel to the past, and Luffy will save Ace this time. Maybe there's a fruit out there that can take a corpse and revive it, not that Moriah thing, actually, making him come back perfectly alive and healthy. Maybe Ace wasn't completely dead in Marineford and surprised everybody in the journey towards his burial, they just built a grave to hide the fact he's alive (that's surprisingly close to these "Kuina is alive" theories). The Mera Mera fruit? An obvious fake created with a Smile. The Vivre Card is admittedly an issue, but maybe Oda can figure out whatever shit for that since this is the first time we actually saw that happening in the narrative.

    Sure, but won't it be a happier party at the end if the character we all thought was dead, turns out to be alive and shows back up with Pekoms, and he gets to actually see that dream happen? That's a way happier celebration than one where you have to dwell even a little on the person that died.
    It would be happier, yes. But not that much after all the SHs and Carrot already came to terms with his death. Would it be happier if Ace appeared in the middle of a party? Well yes of course, but they would still be partying anyway even without him. Pedro was mourned already and they accepted his death, and it certainly helped that they knew it was his intention. They are not going to be forever disturbed by it.

    Where's the body? Where's the on-screen mortal wound? Explosions are worthless in one piece. They create big clouds of smoke and allow characters to, say, get pushed under the water and then float to the surface a little bit later under safety on a different island. And then maybe get taken in by someone that can treat them, or look at what happens to be a full moon and get energized.
    Where's the body in so many of the flashback deaths you take for granted? Or in deaths that have no way to be reverted due to context like Pound's and Mr. 11's?

    Ace's death was an exception. You are treating an exception as the norm and standard. Heck, even Whitebeard didn't die of an on-screen mortal wound. He died of multiple wounds all at the same time, none of them being what took his life alone.

    "maybe get taken in by someone that can treat them"... King Baum, assuming he's alive, is your only plausible alternative in that space. Because I'm not counting Caesar.

    Your assumption on the full moon is a good headcanon. Nowhere has been said that Sulong can heal a dying body, or that it has regenerative effects for that matter.

    We ACTUALLY saw Ace die. Oda even made it extra clear with the vivre card. We ACTUALLY saw Whitebeard die. We saw graves for them later. We saw Going Merry burning.

    ....And Prospero tanking the exact same attack that was meant to take him out shows it wasn't THAT fatal.
    Again, Perospero had a candy armor that was completely destroyed and on top of that the explosion took his arm off.

    Anyway you are talking about the "we" too much. We, the audience, are not what dictate whether a statement is true or false. It's the author. We don't move the narrative.

    That is the only actual difference. That is the reason I'm willing to agree that he's maybe actually dead, and that Oda actually wants us to really believe it, because he's treated it differenty after the fact.

    But I will not be surprised in the least if he turns up fine after we deal with Big Mom again. Certainly not until we see what happened to Pekoms. There is pleeeeenty of wiggle room with Oda's logic of how characters survive whatever they need to survive.
    Can't say I don't understand your sentiments here, but you understand that you are not really building a coherent argument here, right? It's "Oda's logic is so pffff so anything could happen lol". That's like saying nothing xD

    Except it wasn't. They were still trapped for the next 20 chapters, and other characters, Pound, Pekoms, the fishmen, and vinsmokes all made similar stalling sacrifices (and Bon in past arcs) and none of them are dead. If his was the final sacrfice, THE thing that allowed THE escape, I'd agree. But it was just one stall among many, one sacrifice among many, and in the middle. Like it was to ramp up the tension, raise the stakes, rather than finish them.
    I would agree with that, Pedro's death was diminished by the following events, or perhaps Oda didn't handle well the balance between making it enough of a significant turning point and showing that the yonkou threat couldn't be treated this lightly. If anything, his death was a motivational boost for the characters that further strengthened their will and effort to get out of there, that made Luffy make up his mind and take Katakuri with him so that the rest could escape safely, that made Jinbe interpret his sacrifice as a motivation to live on, that made Carrot want to be of help and go Sulong.

    It makes the story sadder and more poigniant for right now to have him "officially dead", but does it add anything when its time to have the party at the end of the trail a few years down the line?
    Depends on what the effect is in Carrot, who is the one character who is more likely to have a permanent effect in her personality attached to this event.

    Sure, and if we see Carrot relaying the information to the other minks and them also mourning about it, and we find out what happened to Pekoms, then that probably settles it. But if it just sort of doesn't come up or gets glossed over in a sentence and we get one panel reactions and then move on?
    There's still the narrative about the dawn of the minks and what Pedro meant to say to Carrot.

    Then again you are not making an argument here. You are making a willd assumption. It's difficult to discuss these since you can make them go as wild as you want, the limit is your imagination.

    Shanks is doomed and that one is going to stick for sure and be super sad.
    Excuse me, I will try to stay quiet and not lose my temper here but... are you... for some reason... saying, implying or assuming that... a FUCKING FAN THEORY IS MORE CERTAIN TO YOU AND YOUR ARBITRARY BELIEF SYSTEM THAN AN ACTUAL DEATH DISPLAYED LIKE THAT BY THE NARRATIVE?

    Allow me to heavy breath. I need to. At least you came with this at the end of the post so there's not much else to deal with.

    But Oda's preferences override everything else. Even when it would be more satisfying and BETTER for the story in every regard for a character to die, Oda just has a really hard time with that. Heck, that's pretty much the entire reason Sabo exists, to lessen the blow of Ace which was one the story HAD to have, and Oda admits that Ace was literally created to die.
    There's also the issue that in the New World we already have a track record of people's deaths Oda didn't care to undo. I don't know what it says about him, maybe he stopped caring because the fans would guess that they are alive anyway, but fact is, it's been almost six years since Monet and Vergo died in the narrative and he hasn't cared to bring any hint to whether they could be alive or not, even when the following arc focused on the Doflamily, even when Doflamingo has appeared a couple times later.

    There is nothing about Pekoms being forever dead that changes the story any more than him being dead for a week does, and that's threshold enough for Oda. I don't want it to be the case, I'd prefer if he were dead because that raises stakes from here on out some, but... the same arc had dozens of other fake outs and Oda hasn't willingly let anyone stay dead any longer than the story absolutely demanded in decades.
    I don't even believe that Pekoms is dead, considering that what the Charlotte army specifically aimed to do was gauging out his eyes.
    Last edited by Sugeeking; October 13th, 2018 at 04:33 AM.

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