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Thread: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

  1. #21

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Implying that Big Mom wasn't generous in her normal state. Her entire Kingdom is based on sharing and eating food - if you are with and not against her, that is.

    Her base personality didn't change at all, she just has 50+ years of being a tough yonkou bitch on her shoulders now.
    Her personality when she recovered her memory didn't show one millimeter of kindness sor her base personality is really in a galaxy far far away

  2. #22

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    I think the point is that O-Lin is her self as it would have been if not spoiled and tainted by her life story. Linlin is what was made of that person.

    The core of Linlin is the generosity shown by O-Lin and Totto Land is in theory the proof of that: a utopia where everyone can live as equal (her dream being literally everyone sharing food on a table standing at the same height and meeting eye to eye couldn't be more clear). Linlin had her nature distorted by her growth, but her personality is rooted on O-Lin.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Even Big Mom with amnesia still reveals the core issue, which is that even when she's doing something good, it's in a horribly misguided way. Wanting to crush/kill Luffy just because he ate some food, rather than at least talking it out first, is classic Big Mom.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    I'm kind of confused as to why Oda would go the trouble of giving Big Mom a mini-redemption arc, showing us she IS indeed capable of kindness and generosity, only to snatch it away
    I'm not sure at all that Big Mom is headed for redemption, or that she is in a character arc (yet). She may have gotten back some of the kindness of her childhood, but even amnesiac her quick temper and tendancy to violence are still around. She beats people, animals, and things half to death if they stand in her way, and the moment she got back to her old self she only expressed disdain towards (Leftover Town ?). Doesn't feel all that different from WCI Big Mom...

    All in all, I would say the amnesy subplot was aimed solely at freeing Luffy and reuniting Big Mom with Kaido (which may or may not initiate the return of Rox, whatever they were). Oda may have more in store for her, but as long as he's not touching the Mother Carmel + orphans + giants matter I don't see any lasting character change on the horizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    Guys what if the world is actually two straw hat planets fused together, with the Red Line being the hats' rims?

  5. #25
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    What access timeco said.

    On top of that, what extraordinary kindness are people talking about when it comes to base O-Lin? The kindness of beating animals into submission? The kindness of killing those who keep her away from O-Shiruko? The kindness of killing those who ate the O-Shiruko?

    The dirty village paid a tribute, and O-Lin wanted to return the favor. This is exactly what Big Mom, the Yonkou, does on a grand scale. Just with decades of experience when it comes to piracy.


  6. #26

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    I think the point is that O-Lin is her self as it would have been if not spoiled and tainted by her life story. Linlin is what was made of that person.

    The core of Linlin is the generosity shown by O-Lin and Totto Land is in theory the proof of that: a utopia where everyone can live as equal (her dream being literally everyone sharing food on a table standing at the same height and meeting eye to eye couldn't be more clear). Linlin had her nature distorted by her growth, but her personality is rooted on O-Lin.
    I agree with this. O-Lin is a chance for READERS to understand Big Mom better, not to "change" Big Mom for the better. O-Lin is not fundamentally different from Big Mom, and Tottoland is the best proof of that as a place where food is literally free and shared by all.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    If Big Mom gets redemmed or not its very important because that will decide her role in the Elbaf arc.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    I don't think this is just a memory loss.

    Big Mom fell in the ocean and then lost her memory. As a devil fruit user, she should have sunk and died, there's something wrong in all this.

    Why did we get all that backstory on Mother Caramel? Why was the portrait of Caramel important? Why damaging it affected Big Mom?

    Why were Big Mom's powers shut down completely during her flashback?

    I think Big Mom is actually a gestalt of Caramel and the young Lilin, and Caramel is in control most of the time. Falling into the ocean shut down the DF powers, so Caramel went dormant (I wouldn't be surprised if her soul is in the portrait or in the hat).

    I'm betting on all that soulstone bindings not stopping Big Mom's, because she's not a real DF user. Her things will still have power, and she will still be strong as hell.

    Big Mom's final defeat may not be a physical one, but Caramel's soul being exorcized or destroyed, and an amnesiac, caring (but dangerous) young Lilin personality remaining, with her sons having to take care of her.
    No, I'm not back. I never left. It's just that it has been a long time since I had something to say.

  9. #29
    Flagon Snaggin' Dragon Kaido King of the Beasts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    I don't think this is just a memory loss.

    Big Mom fell in the ocean and then lost her memory. As a devil fruit user, she should have sunk and died, there's something wrong in all this.

    Why did we get all that backstory on Mother Caramel? Why was the portrait of Caramel important? Why damaging it affected Big Mom?

    Why were Big Mom's powers shut down completely during her flashback?

    I think Big Mom is actually a gestalt of Caramel and the young Lilin, and Caramel is in control most of the time. Falling into the ocean shut down the DF powers, so Caramel went dormant (I wouldn't be surprised if her soul is in the portrait or in the hat).

    I'm betting on all that soulstone bindings not stopping Big Mom's, because she's not a real DF user. Her things will still have power, and she will still be strong as hell.

    Big Mom's final defeat may not be a physical one, but Caramel's soul being exorcized or destroyed, and an amnesiac, caring (but dangerous) young Lilin personality remaining, with her sons having to take care of her.
    So why would getting submerged into the ocean have an effect on her Devil Fruit but not Seastone? They should have the same effect. And why would Carmel be incapacitated after Linlin made it to land - and return upon Linlin taking a blow to the head?

    We got the backstory on Mother Carmel to give Big Mom's backstory and explain how she came to be the way she is. She's a mentally unstable and highly emotional woman; her experiences with Carmel gave her both the greatest and lowest points of her life. No real need for it to be more complicated than that.



    Spoiler:

  10. #30
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    Big Mom's final defeat may not be a physical one, but Caramel's soul being exorcized or destroyed, and an amnesiac, caring (but dangerous) young Lilin personality remaining, with her sons having to take care of her.
    All you have to do in order to defeat Big Mom is to tell her the truth about Carmel. That's it. No need for a soul-parasite in her body, just the simple truth that she's been living a lie.

    And currently there is only one relevant person I can think of...

    1. ....who potentially knows what happened at the orphanage (thanks to the random giant peeping and spreading the info in Elbaf).
    2. ....who potentially knows about Carmel's true colors.
    3. ....who knows and used to care about Lin Lin, at least to some degree.

    Gerth!

    And what a magical coincidence, she is also part of Luffy's Grand Fleet. A Grand Fleet who likely saw the news about Luffy being in Wano, the Grand Fleet who will likely join the Alliance at the end of the arc.

    Gerth, Big Mom's old childhood friend, just needs to meet her at some point to get a conversation going.


  11. #31

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    So why would getting submerged into the ocean have an effect on her Devil Fruit but not Seastone? They should have the same effect. And why would Carmel be incapacitated after Linlin made it to land - and return upon Linlin taking a blow to the head?
    My theories are that Caramel's soul are either in the portrait or in her hat. Or both, maybe. She may reside in the portrait, but the hat is how she controls Lilin. Whatever the case, Chopper noted that the hat didn't awaken the whole time Lilin was amnesiac.

    My guess: the hat fell into the ocean. It can't drown, but it was "shut down" for a while, leaving Lilin free.

    What made her recover the memories? A hit to the head... or a hit to the hat?

    So, now they imprisoned Lilin and bound her to seastone. But the hat is not bound. It's free to use its powers.

    We got the backstory on Mother Carmel to give Big Mom's backstory and explain how she came to be the way she is. She's a mentally unstable and highly emotional woman; her experiences with Carmel gave her both the greatest and lowest points of her life. No real need for it to be more complicated than that.
    I bet there's more than just that. This amnesia is not just a random reason for Lilin to help save Luffy then be captured. It's telling us something.

    Big Mom's past is still shrouded in mystery. We never really saw her eating Caramel. Plus, Caramel's power (apparently inherited by Lilin) is all about souls. If a DF could pull stuff like placing your soul in an object and then controlling someone else's soul, it's a fruit like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    All you have to do in order to defeat Big Mom is to tell her the truth about Carmel. That's it. No need for a soul-parasite in her body, just the simple truth that she's been living a lie.

    And currently there is only one relevant person I can think of...

    1. ....who potentially knows what happened at the orphanage (thanks to the random giant peeping and spreading the info in Elbaf).
    2. ....who potentially knows about Carmel's true colors.
    3. ....who knows and used to care about Lin Lin, at least to some degree.

    Gerth!

    And what a magical coincidence, she is also part of Luffy's Grand Fleet. A Grand Fleet who likely saw the news about Luffy being in Wano, the Grand Fleet who will likely join the Alliance at the end of the arc.

    Gerth, Big Mom's old childhood friend, just needs to meet her at some point to get a conversation going.
    THat's a great insight, I totally forgot about her. Someone is bound to tell the Strawhats how to defeat Lilin, and she could be the one to do so. Nice thinking there!
    No, I'm not back. I never left. It's just that it has been a long time since I had something to say.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Big Mom is in a small group of villain characters for me that I'm never able to step away and call them awesome characters (which she certainly is). Instead, I just really, really hate her. All my investment in her parts in the story from her on is anticipation to finally see her get the beat down she so thoroughly deserves. On the grand scheme of One Piece characters, you've got any average Celestial Dragon at the top, then Orochi, and Big Mom right after that for top 3 "How badly I want to see them punched out" characters. Certainly haven't seen enough to think Kaido's worse than her yet. Therefore, I'd actually be incredibly disappointed if Big Mom simply gets broken by just having the details of Caramel and the kids revealed to her. It can happen, but let her get beat to crap first.

    Technically, what I really want to see is Big Mom so badly beaten, bruised, weakened and crippled that she's forced to retire (or just die) and give most of the power of the crew to Katakuri or Perospero, but I'm not that delusional to think that'll actually happen.

    She's certainly not as bad as some other characters I can't help but hate, but still would have a hard time tolerating her just getting away scot-free.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    I don't think this is just a memory loss.

    Big Mom fell in the ocean and then lost her memory. As a devil fruit user, she should have sunk and died, there's something wrong in all this.

    Why did we get all that backstory on Mother Caramel? Why was the portrait of Caramel important? Why damaging it affected Big Mom?

    Why were Big Mom's powers shut down completely during her flashback?

    I think Big Mom is actually a gestalt of Caramel and the young Lilin, and Caramel is in control most of the time. Falling into the ocean shut down the DF powers, so Caramel went dormant (I wouldn't be surprised if her soul is in the portrait or in the hat).

    I'm betting on all that soulstone bindings not stopping Big Mom's, because she's not a real DF user. Her things will still have power, and she will still be strong as hell.

    Big Mom's final defeat may not be a physical one, but Caramel's soul being exorcized or destroyed, and an amnesiac, caring (but dangerous) young Lilin personality remaining, with her sons having to take care of her.
    I agree with you, I feel that Big Mom having dual personalities and suddenly falling asleep actually have been foreshadowed in the story before.... in the form of Cavendish and Hakuba. When Habuka tries to take over the main body but Cavendish is trying to prevent him from doing so and locked in a stalemate, he falls asleep, and vice versa.

    Cant help but feel this is too similar with what Big Mom and O-Lin is facing - Queen's attack on the head allowed Big Mom (Hakuba) to surface temporarily, but O-Lin (Cavendish) is still sort of conscious and trying to prevent Big Mom from completely taking over - and thus the inner fight causes the main body to fall asleep.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    If Carmel has some control, why become a pirate? I can see the whole gestalt possibility, but disagree because there are conflicts with that.

    Also, throughout this whole story, I can't name 3 characters with DF abilities that died to drowning. Not saying it's impossible to die, just that every DF user that almost drowned, have conveniently survived.

    Back to the Carmel/gestalt conflict. We know what Carmel liked to do. She liked to finesse things to get her own way. Linlin has shown these characteristics and this is why I say that I can see why the gestalt is possible to some. Now why I disagree is because it conflicts with the Giant and Streusen's reaction and other things too much compared to the pros of the situation.

    Pros
    - Carmel said that it was the final deal to Cipher Pol, so that means she possibly knew this would happen.
    - Carmel's ways is similar to how BM is today
    - Linlin's dream to Streusen was said to be make a country that was peaceful and would make Carmel happy. This can be interpreted as Carmel's manipulation or Linlin continuing on a path that was influenced by Carmel, but is of her own.

    Cons
    - Streusen's comments. "She'd die if I leave her alone" and "she's a monster". I don't think that he would say this, unless he witnessed an atrocity.
    - The Giants of Elbaf got word on what happened from that 1 Giant witness. If Carmel did something, I doubt Elbaf would want anything to do with her, but because it was a child they forgave her enough to almost let Loki and Lola get married and be a possible ally.
    - BM was a kid when Carmel disappeared and that picture is the last memento of the event. It makes perfect sense that BM would have that kind of reaction when it breaks.
    - Hakuba and Cavendish are aware of each other. Even had an argument. BM still thinks Carmel is gone.
    - The panel before BM fully regains her memories look like her kids are finally getting through to Napoleon. I don't think it's a memory. The captions look like Napoleon is finally functioning and they're calling her.
    Last edited by Cockycent; July 3rd, 2019 at 12:08 AM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Before head clonking number two i had high hopes for it.

    But now it just seems to be a lazy way to remove BM from the equation.

    I don't have very high hopes for a revival of my Caramel theory.

  16. #36
    Bisoromi Bear Game And Guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    fist of the flowing machina: crushing collars

    You are on a quest to become the Pirate Prince, and you decide your fate!

  17. #37

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Oh yeah, speaking of fists, am I seeing wrong or does Queen's brachio form have its 2 front legs (his arms) intact ? Drawing inconsistency, or will the machine fist turn out to be something else ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    Guys what if the world is actually two straw hat planets fused together, with the Red Line being the hats' rims?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Somehow the Carmel possessing Linlin theory still lives, but the thing that keeps bothering me is people calling her Caramel

  19. #39

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Somehow the Carmel possessing Linlin theory still lives, but the thing that keeps bothering me is people calling her Caramel
    I just assumed that she had a food name.

    Seems like an odd choice to go with carmel

  20. #40

    Default Re: Chapter 947: Queen's Gamble

    It's because of the carmelite nuns.

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