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Thread: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

  1. #41
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    We know the controlled characters' personality doesn't change - they still seem perfectly lucid and indistinguishable from their normal selves to people who knew them before (as Queen and Babanuki demonstrated) - so it's not a full, robotic brainwashing, just a tweaking of allegiances. It seems to be more of a strong power of suggestion than outright mind control.
    I don't think thats entirely clear yet. Babanuki was being fed his lines throghout the call with Queen; Afterwards he's childishly gleeful, awaiting his masters approval like a big dog. This behavior is completely different from anything he'd shown prior to his brainwashing; he didn't have much of a personality, granted, but was presented as forgetful, humorously calm in the face of disaster, and sadistically ruthless, without regards for his subordinates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    That said, I don't think there has to have a perfectly moral explanation. This can be, and still is, a bit of a shady thing to do. In-universe, I doubt Tama has thought through the full implications of what she's doing, and I think the adults around her would rather have the utility than the moral highground. And I don't think that's an issue! Oda keeps his protagonists at least vaguely heroic, but they're still a chaotic kind of good. Luffy's morality is relative and strongly favours protecting people he likes over the objective greater good (if such a thing exists). There have been some huge grey areas in Luffy's actions before (Impel Down, anyone?) and they've hardly ruined the manga's outward-facing innocence or Luffy as a protagonist, so I'm not going to clutch my pearls and say it's inappropriate or inconsistent that Luffy would use mind manipulation to get ahead.
    The problem with the supposed "moral greyness" of the Straw Hats is that the manga never acknowledges it. The closest it ever got was Hannyabals Impel Down scene, and even here we're never shown the consequences of Luffys actions, he's never truly framed as questionable. Indeed after Hannyabals speech he doesn't get KO'd by Luffy bu tby the REALLY evil Teach who's after the REALLY evil prisoners - and Luffy proceeds to fight Teach. So even then the manga is scrambling to frame Luffy more positively.

    But the refusal to grapple with the crews implications is far more pronounced recently, such as with the Whole Cake Wedding scenario, where they plot to use CCs weapons on Big Mom. Throughout both Punk Hazard and Zou CC and his weapons have been framed as extremely morally corrupt, and poisoning in general has been framed as amoral as far back as Baratie, so the Straw Hats are being extremely hypocritical and morally questionable here. Yet this is never adressed in-story. There is not a single instance of anyone, least of all Chopper, going "I feel kinda bad about this", no framing of the crew as acting questionable in any way.

    And this is what causes the disconnect. The protagonist using unscrupulous tactics -sometimes used by unambiguously evil people beforehand! - without the manga treating it as such.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    For me it's more about the constant convenience these days. Need something done? It's ok, here this broken magical power that fixed your problem. And if we don't got that power, there is this new ally that had the solution to your problem anyway, or just maybe villain forgets about you.

    At least in dressrosa sugar or the other broken power was on the villain's side.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Yep, it is clear that the manga does not portray morality by pure actions but by the context and the perpetrators of those actions

  4. #44

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post
    For me it's more about the constant convenience these days. Need something done? It's ok, here this broken magical power that fixed your problem. And if we don't got that power, there is this new ally that had the solution to your problem anyway, or just maybe villain forgets about you.

    At least in dressrosa sugar or the other broken power was on the villain's side.
    That's pretty much Jojo in a nutshell.

  5. #45
    Charismatic Awesome Joy Boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    This is one off-paneling I absolutely agree with, assuming that whatever happens in Big Mom's plot is sufficient. We already know how Big Mom handles enemies weaker than her, seeing her against Kaido, either of them at full strength, would spoil the end of the arc. I'm fine with waiting to see what tricks he has beyond the club.
    Not really. Both are fighting without using their fruit but, Oda just going off screen and then showing absolutely nothing of worth for the rest of chapter is just plain bad. He's not off paneling a 3rd rate enemy (Page One) he's off paneling Kaido, the strongest creature in the world fighting against another Yonko.

    It absolutely sucks.

    Aside from the Yakuza bosses, nothing really happened. I love Wano and this is easily, by far the worst chapter of the arc


  6. #46

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    It isn't a big deal if it's being skipped or not because honestly, not a lot of people were expecting that it would be covered in the first place.

    At least people who were questioning Big Mom Pirate's competence back in Totland by comparing them to the Beast Pirates over and over can finally shut their mouths.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    there is a break this week?

  8. #48

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy Boy View Post
    Not really. Both are fighting without using their fruit but, Oda just going off screen and then showing absolutely nothing of worth for the rest of chapter is just plain bad. He's not off paneling a 3rd rate enemy (Page One) he's off paneling Kaido, the strongest creature in the world fighting against another Yonko.

    It absolutely sucks.

    Aside from the Yakuza bosses, nothing really happened. I love Wano and this is easily, by far the worst chapter of the arc
    You act as if this is the only time we'll see them fight, that there isn't a good reason for not spoiling what they both (namely Kaido) can do days before the fire festival. Kaido is the main antagonist of the arc, we'll fully see what he can do one way or another. So you're right, it's not like Page One at all.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by BingBang View Post
    there is a break this week?
    There is no break.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Oda doesn't like drawing fights since the timeskip because apparently some irrelevant side characters are more important to him and deserve more panel time. I doubt we'll even see the final fight against him that much Oda will just cut to Kinemon or Raizou fighting their fodder opponents instead.

    Also Kaido isn't the main antagonist of this arc. Wano doesn't have a single main baddie but 3.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    I don't think thats entirely clear yet. Babanuki was being fed his lines throghout the call with Queen; Afterwards he's childishly gleeful, awaiting his masters approval like a big dog. This behavior is completely different from anything he'd shown prior to his brainwashing; he didn't have much of a personality, granted, but was presented as forgetful, humorously calm in the face of disaster, and sadistically ruthless, without regards for his subordinates.




    The problem with the supposed "moral greyness" of the Straw Hats is that the manga never acknowledges it. The closest it ever got was Hannyabals Impel Down scene, and even here we're never shown the consequences of Luffys actions, he's never truly framed as questionable. Indeed after Hannyabals speech he doesn't get KO'd by Luffy bu tby the REALLY evil Teach who's after the REALLY evil prisoners - and Luffy proceeds to fight Teach. So even then the manga is scrambling to frame Luffy more positively.

    But the refusal to grapple with the crews implications is far more pronounced recently, such as with the Whole Cake Wedding scenario, where they plot to use CCs weapons on Big Mom. Throughout both Punk Hazard and Zou CC and his weapons have been framed as extremely morally corrupt, and poisoning in general has been framed as amoral as far back as Baratie, so the Straw Hats are being extremely hypocritical and morally questionable here. Yet this is never adressed in-story. There is not a single instance of anyone, least of all Chopper, going "I feel kinda bad about this", no framing of the crew as acting questionable in any way.

    And this is what causes the disconnect. The protagonist using unscrupulous tactics -sometimes used by unambiguously evil people beforehand! - without the manga treating it as such.
    I think Luffy's speech in Fishman Island acknowledges this theme. He says he doesnt want to be a hero and doesnt want to be seen as such. Because "he wants to eat all the meat".
    Yes,then in Wano he actually acted differently,giving "the meat" to the people,but i think his point stands anyway.
    By the way,about the Tama argument,i still think her power should be seen more like a "dominant animal who has influence over other animals" than slavery or brainwashing. Or at least something similar to Pokemon training lol.

  11. #51
    Charismatic Awesome Joy Boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTnaig View Post
    Oda doesn't like drawing fights since the timeskip because apparently some irrelevant side characters are more important to him and deserve more panel time. I doubt we'll even see the final fight against him that much Oda will just cut to Kinemon or Raizou fighting their fodder opponents instead.

    Also Kaido isn't the main antagonist of this arc. Wano doesn't have a single main baddie but 3.
    Don't know what you have been reading but Kaido is the main antagonist of arc.


  12. #52

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTnaig View Post

    Also Kaido isn't the main antagonist of this arc. Wano doesn't have a single main baddie but 3.
    Kaido has been the main target since chapter 696 lol

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Wow, it is very rare for a singular gag to be so effective with me but Queen's poker face about trying to find excuses to leave was very funny. I wonder what Kaido's intention is for the BM pirates if he does kill her (in Kaido's mind; Oda probably wouldn't go there), like will he just wipe them out or try to fold them into his ranks? If he was willing to fill the prison mines with guys he wanted to integrate into his crew, I don't see why he wouldn't want some even stronger warriors on his team. Disloyalty and disrespect don't seem like impediments for him to wanting them, he can just put them through the process of breaking down their wills if he has to like he tried with Luffy who attacked him directly.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Queen is by far best beast pirate. I hope he is like Mr2 and will return in other arcs and have role, and not get captured and send to impel down or something and never show up beyond some cover page. He can send king away, that guy is really boring so far.

  15. #55
    Empress of Diabetes Miss Saturday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy Boy View Post
    Still extremely disappointing that Oda is off paneling Kaido vs Mom. This isn’t him off paneling Sanji vs a third rate opponent in Page One. This is him off paneling a fight between the main 2 antagonists of the whole saga and 2 of the strongest in the series. And all of that to show freaking Gyukimaru.

    Bad move Oda. Worst and most disappointing chapter of the arc by far
    Whitebeard vs. Shanks was also off-paneled. They are fights we are not meant to see. You don't gaze upon Gods battling because your pathetic mortal eyes can't handle it.
    .. No but seriously, why do you need an entire chapter dedicated to seeing them fight? They're both strong. We get it. We don't need to see that happening. Besides, the fight is not yet over; for all you know we could see more of it happen next chapter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    they followed Kaidou because of his musky scent or the size of his horns or whatever.
    That's a pretty sexy reason to follow someone. I buy it
    Last edited by Miss Saturday; August 19th, 2019 at 12:32 PM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Chapter 953: Kaido vs. Big Mom

    Resumes from their clash from last chapter. Their weapons are still clashing. They are both "RRRRRRRGH!!!" as they keep the pressure. For 17 pages. Now you saw the fight.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    So we don't need to see yonkou vs yonkou, but we need many chapters of zoro vs fodders. zoro got to catch them all, until his blades turn black from all the fodders blood. year of fodder hunter.

  18. #58
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Can't have Kaido punch Big Mom on panel. He's the only one who could actually harm her and no one wants to feel with a soon to be redeemed wife-batterer.


  19. #59
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy Boy View Post
    Not really. Both are fighting without using their fruit but, Oda just going off screen and then showing absolutely nothing of worth for the rest of chapter is just plain bad. He's not off paneling a 3rd rate enemy (Page One) he's off paneling Kaido, the strongest creature in the world fighting against another Yonko.

    It absolutely sucks.

    Aside from the Yakuza bosses, nothing really happened. I love Wano and this is easily, by far the worst chapter of the arc
    Not really. Big Mom has already shined and Kaido, as the end of SAGA boss will surely get his own. Oda showed plenty of worth this chapter, even if some of it was exposition, it was all important and will be.

    It's absolutely great.

    The Yakuza bosses were great as was everything else in the chapter. I've loved this arc and this is easily, by far the best chapter of the arc.

  20. #60
    Charismatic Awesome Joy Boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Not really. Big Mom has already shined and Kaido, as the end of SAGA boss will surely get his own. Oda showed plenty of worth this chapter, even if some of it was exposition, it was all important and will be.

    It's absolutely great.

    The Yakuza bosses were great as was everything else in the chapter. I've loved this arc and this is easily, by far the best chapter of the arc.
    How the hell is this the best chapter of the arc ? Also what exposition ? There wasn’t any new info in the chapter and the only thing we really got to move forward was the blueprints

    Calling this the best chapter of the arc is plain wrong when we’ve gotten far better ones.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Saturday View Post
    Whitebeard vs. Shanks was also off-paneled. They are fights we are not meant to see. You don't gaze upon Gods battling because your pathetic mortal eyes can't handle it.
    .. No but seriously, why do you need an entire chapter dedicated to seeing them fight? They're both strong. We get it. We don't need to see that happening. Besides, the fight is not yet over; for all you know we could see more of it happen next chapter.



    That's a pretty sexy reason to follow someone. I buy it
    Shanks and WB didn’t really fight, they just clashed. Here we have a legit fight. Also really dude ? We don’t need to see Kaido vs Mom but we need to see Gyukimaru ?


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