Naruto Thread XII: This really has to be the final Naruto thread, right?

[pariston_hill]

I could go on a full discussion but i don't think it would be time well wasted. Specially if we delve in the reference bias.

Ancestry became an important part of Naruto in Part II, before that we had Tsunade that was the granddaughter of Harashima and Kakashi that had a famous father, well Gaara too since his father was a Kage, or if you consider the tagedy of Neiji. But outside those examples, none of the important characters have great ancestors. Part I was very much sheer work can catch up and surpass genius.

By beef with the Uchiha is not their importance to the lore, more too how much overpowered and "perfect" their character were. Like Itachi, a child soldier with PTSD couldn't gone rogue, he only did it because Hanzo blackmailed him. Do I need to bring the "Can you beat Uchiha Marada" meme?

Yes, the tale of Princess Kaguya is one of the most famous japonese folklore, nevertheless it doesn't give you a free pass to substitute the villain you have been crafting and growing for 300+ chapters of another, with the excuse that one of the Zetsus's has always been her pawn, when you have ZERO foreshadowing of that.

Konoha 11 didn't need to have too much spotlight, but it didn't need to be turned irrelevant either. We had a Ninja war that covered more than half of the series, plenty of opportunity to show their growth.

The pairings are completely irrelevant, I just found them weird, like Ino and Sai ever interacted? Same with Chouji and his wife.

Obito is a tragic character in the sense he was a manipulated child soldier both by his nation, and by Madara. Everything else is on him. As much as one of the cores of Naruto is to break the circle of hatred, Obito caused the death of Naruto's parents - which latter caused him to ostracized - and the almost destruction of the village, and orchestrated a world war that almost ended with the doomsday scenario. No matter how much attonemet he done is not enough to call him "the coolest."

So I end this, on an agree to disagree.

[gyuukarubi]

Ancestry became an important part of Naruto in Part II, before that we had Tsunade that was the granddaughter of Harashima and Kakashi that had a famous father, well Gaara too since his father was a Kage, or if you consider the tagedy of Neiji. But outside those examples, none of the important characters have great ancestors. Part I was very much sheer work can catch up and surpass genius.

The ancestry part of Naruto ties directly into Buddhism — Indra and Asura lore specifically. Naruto was special and inherited the will of his ancestors, but it seems like nearly any descendant of Indra/Asura could have inherited the same strength. It seems as though there's a combination of history + Buddhist lore at play here and it likely makes the most sense to those raised in it.

By beef with the Uchiha is not their importance to the lore, more too how much overpowered and "perfect" their character were. Like Itachi, a child soldier with PTSD couldn't gone rogue, he only did it because Hanzo blackmailed him. Do I need to bring the "Can you beat Uchiha Marada" meme?

I loved the writing for all of these characters. Even prior to Sasuke and Itachi's clash in part 2, I always knew that there was more to the story — especially during the first fight in the Valley of the End. Madara remains one of my favorite characters in the entire series.

Yes, the tale of Princess Kaguya is one of the most famous japonese folklore, nevertheless it doesn't give you a free pass to substitute the villain you have been crafting and growing for 300+ chapters of another, with the excuse that one of the Zetsus's has always been her pawn, when you have ZERO foreshadowing of that.

It does make sense, if you understand Japanese lore. Princess Kaguya comes from one of the earliest Japanese texts. The God Tree comes from Buddhism. Zetsu, a plant-man, being connected to them isn't too far of a stretch.

Konoha 11 didn't need to have too much spotlight, but it didn't need to be turned irrelevant either. We had a Ninja war that covered more than half of the series, plenty of opportunity to show their growth.

Probably, but I enjoyed seeing other characters fight. Kishimoto expanded their world and the jutsu available. We witnessed all five Kage fight — as well as their right-hands. The Konoha 11 didn't have the same ambition as those people and it makes sense that their focus decreased, though the anime gave them much more spotlight.

The pairings are completely irrelevant, I just found them weird, like Ino and Sai ever interacted? Same with Chouji and his wife.

Wasn't Ino very attracted to Sai during his first appearance? She was certainly into Sasuke originally, but had no real connection with him. Her being attracted to Sai makes sense.

Chouji probably met Karui after the war and they connected. That's how it works in real life — I actually like that.

Regardless, parings aren't the focus of the series. People who play that game can do so — but I never read Naruto to see "who ends up with who."

Obito is a tragic character in the sense he was a manipulated child soldier both by his nation, and by Madara. Everything else is on him. As much as one of the cores of Naruto is to break the circle of hatred, Obito caused the death of Naruto's parents - which latter caused him to ostracized - and the almost destruction of the village, and orchestrated a world war that almost ended with the doomsday scenario. No matter how much attonemet he done is not enough to call him "the coolest.

Naruto also forgave Pain, who brutally murdered his mentor. Obito was an unfortunate casualty manipulated by the forces leading the world down a dark path. Naruto showing that moment of tenderness to Obito was the way to redeem the character. Obito will still go to hell, but the message of Naruto is forgiveness.

Reread part 2 of Naruto: it largely is about forgoing hatred for forgiveness and this is a common theme that exists in most arcs.

[King Cannon]

I admit I did a double take when the 9-Tails mentioned nuclear fusions.

[PatTraverse]

Your personal opinion on the quality of another’s work is the definition of subjectivity. Naruto has literally grossed over $10 billion in revenue — $1.6 billion of that is from sales of the manga alone and more than the X-Men as an entire media franchise. This is an objective measurement. Just because you do not personally connect to the story does not mean that others have not.

At some point, individuals have to realize that their opinions are simply developed through their frame of reference and subjective tastes. I include myself in this; my opinions are not “objective truth” and I’ve never thought of them as such. But they do inform my perspective on the nature of reality itself.

There is nothing “good” or “bad” — only thinking makes it so. I think, therefore I am. Misc wisdom, etc.

The fact that you brought popularity as a reason why something is good pretty much says that there is not even any point trying to argue with you.

[gyuukarubi]

The fact that you brought popularity as a reason why something is good pretty much says that there is not even any point trying to argue with you.

Sales are an objective measurement of how much a property resonates with an audience. Taste / reviews are subjective. Please tell me how I’m wrong?

[zeltrax225]

Nah, people who have read Naruto and were long term fans had the same problem with the series near its end.
I'm too lazy to go dig up the old jp twitter threads but favorable opinions are mostly towards team 7 where you know, the main cast gets their shine.
Other parts of the war were hated. when the popular characters were out of the series, no one bothers to pay attention.
Basically, Naruto is a series that banks hard on their popular first half characters carrying the show.

But I do agree that in his early years, Kishimoto did have a great artstyle that incorporates a bunch of cultural aspects into a semi-realistic setting.
Which was nice but now it's all over the place because he can't stop wanting to draw tech and robots without understanding why great sci-fi is great sci-fi.
Also, he over-relies too much on the mythology aspect or like, he loves stuff like that but he just inserts it so damn much that it gets really annoying.
Mostly because it is executed in an info-dump way, gonna shove this down your throat right now even if you never heard of it before! way.

Just look at samurai 8 with all that tangled history/what-you-call-it that has no place being in a sci-fi setting.
Sure he can do what he wants but come on, this is the same thing as walking into an action movie and then the villain suddenly go hey have you ever heard of our lord and saviour.

If you want a good mythology/history/references incorporated into world-building that doesn't read like a 15 year old fever dream take a look at how AoT managed it.

Also getting into Jump is not even the same as getting into harvard, there are shitload of terrible series that gets axe.
The entire system banks on instant/weekly gratification instead of letting series have their time to build up into something great. Look at webtoons, self-motivated manga like Radiant, the greatest stories that have a slow start, etc.
Don't ride on Jump's ability too much. They are great at what they do but what they do are becoming less relevant and more obsolete as time passes.
They dropped AoT, let Chainsaw man fly because of audience receptiveness and the changing times which simply means that yeah they fucked up and an "elite company that hires top of the line talents" do actually fuck up.
A lot more than you actually think.


Sales are an objective figure to determine popularity, not quality.
Popularity does not translate to quality.
People don't watch or re watch sitcoms like Friends because Shakespeare inspired writers wrote the show but everyone in America knows about it.
People who are fans of Berserk and Vagabond don't give a ratass about Fairy Tail most popular moments but it still sells.
Fast food is popular but nobody is going to pay Michelin chef prices for a Whopper Jr

[pariston_hill]

More superb writing.
https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1008140

[Sesha]

[NateRich]

I like seeing Sasuke get stabbed in uncomfortable places.

[Razh]

Shame, liked this Isshiki fellow. Unlike Kaguya, he actually talked. Even had some manners.

Kind of a ham fisted way to take away from Naruto and Sasuke's power, but I'm kinda enjoying all this. Mostly because I'm not really invested.

[pariston_hill]

Ah how little I missed Kishimoto's masterful writing
https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1008329

[Cockycent]

Ch. 54 response

Spoiler:

Hope this isn't another pumpfake. Please kill him off. I've been waiting for this for a long time. If Isshiki really pulled it off and made Naruto kill himself, he might be top 5 all time.

I like how almost everyone is prepared to die or kill each other. I thought it'd be this long drawn out plan to get Momo to absorb chakra, but Kawaki attempting to kill himself was great.

I'm still waiting to see what caused the flashforward moment where there's a rift between Kawaki and Boruto. I thought the last 3 chapters would contain a hint towards it.

[Captain Krupp]

I cant believe this thread is buried 4 pages into the forum section.

Spoiler:

The Nine Tailed Fox died. RIP

[pariston_hill]

So tailed beasts run on nuclear fuel?
https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1008529

[Md-Martin]

Naruto was more upset when Obito died, the guy who murdered his pal Neji 20 minutes earlier.

[Green_vs_Red]

Kurama killed his mother and father so he might still be feeling some type of way.

Jokes aside hasn’t it already been established that tailed beast can’t truly die?

[Md-Martin]

Kurama killed his mother and father so he might still be feeling some type of way.

Jokes aside hasn’t it already been established that tailed beast can’t truly die?

They normally just reform after some years if they’re “killed” since they’re made of chakra.


That still might be the case here, but given the mode they just used at Kurama using his Chakra as fuel for a new energy, it seems like it may be a death that sticks.

[Green_vs_Red]

Would be bizarre though to have Kurama of all people die after all this time.

But I guess they mean business.

[Razh]

Would have preferred if Naruto parted with Kurama in peaceful acceptance. This way it feels like it still needs closure. So I wouldn't bet Kurama isn't coming back in some form. This nuclear fusion thing opened a whole can of worms in a way.

[maxterdexter]

Do we know where the rest of the biju are? I guess the 8tails is palling around with Killer B, but the rest of characterless monsters and shukaku what did they do?