General Devil Fruit Discussion

[Cymelion]

Agreed. I think it would be a waste for CC (a character introduced this arc) to reveal such huge information when we've been waiting for years to get the explanation from Vegapunk, just because he was an old colleague.

I can't see how it would be a waste - we've been waiting 668 Chapters so far for a proper explanation on Devil Fruits. If anything the sooner the better - but even if CC gives us an exposition on DF it doesn't mean we'll get all the information. Perhaps a general run down on how the fruits appear and why they have the powers they have. Even with that there is a ton of information left to be told by Vegapunk - especially relating to Blackbeard and his seemingly Overpowered fruit.

[Superbear 22]

I can't see how it would be a waste - we've been waiting 668 Chapters so far for a proper explanation on Devil Fruits. If anything the sooner the better - but even if CC gives us an exposition on DF it doesn't mean we'll get all the information. Perhaps a general run down on how the fruits appear and why they have the powers they have. Even with that there is a ton of information left to be told by Vegapunk - especially relating to Blackbeard and his seemingly Overpowered fruit.

I agree, every time when an associate to Vegapunk is brought up we get a bit of information, or a demonstration, so we are bound to get something this arc.

[Densuke]

I can't see how it would be a waste - we've been waiting 668 Chapters so far for a proper explanation on Devil Fruits. If anything the sooner the better - but even if CC gives us an exposition on DF it doesn't mean we'll get all the information. Perhaps a general run down on how the fruits appear and why they have the powers they have. Even with that there is a ton of information left to be told by Vegapunk - especially relating to Blackbeard and his seemingly Overpowered fruit.

Well, you're right...I wouldn't mind to get A BIT of info from CC since he was an old colleague/WG scientist, but I meant it would be a waste to reveal it all right now from a character who just got introduced when we've been waiting to here it from Vegapunk when he's finally introduced.

[Waboshi]

Am I the only one that's bugged by the fact that ALL the 3 admirals are DF users and that they ALL are Logias?

[Ace of Spades]

Am I the only one that's bugged by the fact that ALL the 3 admirals are DF users and that they ALL are Logias?

I don't see a problem there. The WG and marines are a massive organisation, so its not weird they would find dfs. Spandam was able to obtain two as well, the high ranking marines are probably provided the most powerful fruits.
And Aokiji has left the marines now, and Akainu is FA. So only one admiral remains for now.

[Pipio]

Am I the only one that's bugged by the fact that ALL the 3 admirals are DF users and that they ALL are Logias?

I bet that was pretty rare moment in the marine's history, so we probably won't see it again.

[TheCrystalShip]

I bet that was pretty rare moment in the marine's history, so we probably won't see it again.

INB4 Smoker becomes an Admiral.

[Superbear 22]

What if Monet has devil fruit? I'm not talking about her being a Zoan or whatever, I'm talking about what if she had a devil fruit prior to being operated on by Law.

[Drake]

What if Monet has devil fruit? I'm not talking about her being a Zoan or whatever, I'm talking about what if she had a devil fruit prior to being operated on by Law.

And then what? Not exactly sure what you mean.

[Superbear 22]

And then what? Not exactly sure what you mean.

It would just be a unique occurrence, that's all. Its almost cheating in a way.

[AppleSauce]

Okay, This lastest Chapter of Luffy vs. Caesar should prove that Logia's are ability mode 24/7. They have become their element and do not need any sort of activateing.

Pipio, I did say I'll hold off my reply to you concerning Logia's ability about being their element or Human and activating their powers until we've received enough info.

Well, this chapter proves what I said a while back in the Haki thread.
So I'll just copy and paste my comment from that thread.

A Logia's body, organs, and Bones are made of that element which they have become. A Logia body is Touchable/damageable when in contact with Haki, Seastone, and weakness. Ace was Fried and Boiled by Akainu because of Weakness/Haki. His organs melted. Just like how Law used Haki with his ability to take out Smokers heart, otherwise there is no way to make contact with a Logia. How his heart stays in that Ice box will be explained next chapter.

This stance that I have taken to believe that Logia's are permenant, is something I believe to be true. The counter examples that try to discredit this belief are easily refuted. However, we don't really know for certain yet. The next chapter would give us alot of information on this matter. I really want to find out as well, Since its killing me to be defending such a pointless issue.
I am certain that Law used Haki combined with his Ability to remove Smokers heart, I hope you would agree with this. I don't believe a Logia needs to activate his ability on reflex during a fight to have attacks pass through. we have seen Logia's offguard plenty of times yet attacks passed through them.
Lets discuss the Ice box.
Is that Box made of seastone? I don't think this will happen.

Is that Ice box made of Seawater and will be used as an explaination which will say "Smoker couldn't collect himself because that seawater ice box prevented him" I dont think this will happen.

Now what really can be discredit my line of thinking would be the following.

Smokers heart was separted form his body off course he would faint. Why does his heart stay in the shape of a normal heart? maybe because his unconcious. Unless the box is Seastone or used as a Weakness to prevent smokers ability than he should be able to escape on land. However Luffy was unconcious under water yet he was still rubber. and when smoker is pinning down Luffy with Seastone, Luffy's is still rubber. Smoker at Alabasta drowning can't be used to discredit this belief because the seawater drains smokers ability and removes his defense. So, if next chapter Smoker is able to get carried off without having a haki user carry him than, this would discredit my line of thought. Imagine Superman, The only way to perform an Operation on him is with a Kryponite Scapel, It should be the same way for Logias, Use haki, or a Seastone. unless they really don't have a Permenant Logia body. Being unconcious would make your ability disappear like Moria or Shiki. So really they are not permenant like Luffy but Semi-Permenant. I can't wait for the Next Chapter.

Blackbeard is very special he literary removes an ability when he uses his dark vortex. Luffy would still be Rubber as he was in the Sea at Arlong park and with smoker pinning him down with seastone, even if he were to be cuffed. while BB takes that ability away when you are in contact with him that instant.

See the bold part.
Even when Caesar was Presumed to be unconscious we were told that he cannot be touched because his a logia, Meaning his body is his element regardless if his conscious or not.
Now before we start discussing the whole repeated debate all over again lets just try to reread a few pages of this thread and see what we had previously discussed.

Umm... we've had this conversation in the General Devil Fruit discussion and everyone pretty much disagreed with me.
Even so I'll still post my opinion on this matter.
Once an Ability user Eats a Fruit which transforms his Body into an element or Material than they have become as such by default being that element or material. That is their 1 true body.
When a Devil fruit body is taking damage from Weakness, haki, Seastone, it wouldn't mean your are hitting a body that was before they ate the Devil fruit(a normal body). Weakness, Haki, Seastone, acts as a form of making contact to and bypass their defense which allows you to damage their Devil fruit body. The only one who can damage a Real body is Blackbeard because his ability removes yours.

How can you hit Lightning or Light when it is what they have become? this is something thats not touchable.
Its not a matter of whether they can turn on or off their ability its about what they have become.
They have become a material/element which cannot receive any damage at all.

Oda invented Weaknees, Seastone, and Haki for this.

Enel=weakness, Enel was in a Lighting Transformed state, Yet Luffy was able to hit him with his final attack. The rubber body acted as a form of making contact and bypassing the defense of a logia body.(Never did Enel Stop being Lightning.)

Croc=weakness, He was still a Sand man when he was receiving attacks from luffy, The weakness(water) bypassed his Logia defense body. or when Robin tried to Execute him with a vile of water.(Never did Croc stop being a Sandman)

Enel=Seastone, He was still a Lightning when he was hit, The seastone bypassed his Logia defense body.(Never did Enel stop being a Lightning man)

Kizaru=Haki, Kizaru was hit by Rayleigh when he was still a Light man, Haki bypassed his Logia Defense body.(Never did Kizaru stop being a Lightman)

Luffy= Seastone, Smoker is able to damage Luffy because of the seastone, Seastone Bypassed Luffy's rubber Defense Body.(Never did Luffy stop Being rubber).

Their Ability is not removed... Seastone bypass/Removes their defenses just like Haki.They are still a Logia body by default even at this stage, but its Weakened/Touchable/damageable and disrupts their powers.

The effect on Logia's seems to be much Greater, since their biggest defense is no longer apparent due to seastones affect.

Edit:
Rayleigh never said anything about 2 bodies.

here is what i believe the following do.

Weakness= allows you to make contact with an ability user and bypass their defense to damage their ability body.(I don't think there are 2 bodies)

Haki= allows you to make contact with an ability user and bypass their defense to damage their ability body. Haki is lesser form of hitting a Ability user compared to seastone. However its already proven that Haki goes Into power levels. How much damage you or your opponent do or receive depends upon both of your haki levels.

Seastone= allows you to make contact with an ability user and bypass their defense, and can be damaged/touched like a normal body, but the body still posses the ability and stays the entire time a Devil Fruit body. Seastone also weakens the ability user's Defense and makes them unable to summon their powers willingly. Being Submerged into the Sea is the same thing.

Blackbeard= He is the only one who targets a Real Flesh body, because he removes the ability of his opponent.

So the Thing that I was wrong about is when i said that there is only one true body. But now we can be sure that every single devil fruit user does have a True body(Human body) + ability body which is damageable with Haki, weakness, Seastone, and Blackbeard. Such methods which allows you to contact or damage such ability users vary differently and have very different effects on the Ability users. Such as Haki which does not prevent activation of the ability which Seastone does, and Blackbeard whom removes your ability.

I'll post the Cycle that this debate goes into once again.

Exactly my point. Logia's become their element.
Now,
you will say - that they need to activate their Ability to become this element or else they are human.

I will say - No they do not need Activating; Because that's what they have become.

You will say - Since they can take hits, that means that they are able to return to human form.

I will say - Their ability can be trained to do many things, even to the point where they can take hits Willingly. It doesn't mean they need to activate to become what they are....
You can't hit lightning or Light... That's why Oda invented Weakness, Haki, and Seastone.
There is no way to make contact with such elements without Weakness, Haki, Seastone, or Blackbeard.

You will say - Alabasta Cafe Scene. How can Logia's walk?, How do their cloths stay intact, how can they old Objects....

I will say - The only things that can be refuted against this issue are Comedy moments or things which would make the manga really weird, complicated and R rated.

you will say - Luffy was still Rubber when submerged, While Ace was apparently Touchable.

I will say - Luffy's Resistance to Blunt attacks is gone.
While Logia's Defense is Gone to a Much higher Degree.
Logia's are their element even at this stage, their Ability is not removed... Seastone bypasses their defenses just like Haki. They are still a Logia body by default even at this stage, but its Weakened/Touchable/damageable and disrupts their powers.
The effect on Logia's seems to be much Greater, since their biggest defense is no longer apparent due to seastones affect.

So we are really arguing a pointless discussion. It will go in Circles.

If others would want to take a look at this discussion we had previously visit the pages around 140 of this thread.

[akagami7]

Even when Caesar was Presumed to be unconscious we were told that he cannot be touched because his a logia, Meaning his body is his element regardless if his conscious or not.

No, what luffy meant when he said that tying him would be useless is that caesar would escape when he regained consciousness.
He didn't mean that caesar can't be touched even when he is unconscious.

[AppleSauce]

No, what luffy meant when he said that tying him would be useless is that caesar would escape when he regained consciousness.
He didn't mean that caesar can't be touched even when he is unconscious.

No that is exactly what is meant here.
Its the same thing as Enel being attacked in his sleep.

[akagami7]

No that is exactly what is meant here.

the only thing meant here is that tying a logia is completely useless.
two interpretations:
mine: because the user would escape once he regained consciousness.
yours: because he can't be touched when he is unconscious. The user can't be tied unless he wants to.

Don't take your interpretation as a fact when there is another perfectly reasonable one.

[AppleSauce]

the only thing meant here is that tying a logia is completely useless.
two interpretations:
mine: because the user would escape once he regained consciousness.
yours: because he can't be touched when he is unconscious. The user can't be tied unless he wants to.

Don't take your interpretation as a fact when there is another perfectly reasonable one.

Your interpretation is based on events that will happen after they have captured him.
My interpretation is based on what they are currently involved in at the exact moment.

Your interpretation is further and unnecessarily speculating something that is a issue which luffy Will have in the future.
My interpretation is that he is speaking about the issue based on the exact moment of Caesar capture, which is exactly what is given to us.

Hence why we get the barrel reference from Franky.
If Ropes did Work on him at the moment than there would be no point in Franky commenting about finding a barrel.
Same thing with Smokers heart.
Get something that will completely inclose the Substance and their is no escape for the logia.

[Densuke]

Wait, wait...When exactly is/was he unconscious?? He was shown up and boasting like 2 seconds later.

Saying he couldn't be tied up while unconscious is stupid though, Akagami7 is right.

[AppleSauce]

Wait, wait...When exactly is/was he unconscious?? He was shown up and boasting like 2 seconds later.

Although Akagami7 is right, if he WAS unconscious he could be tied, but again pointless because he'd wake up.

We received all the info about Logia's can't be tied before Caesar wakes up.
That is more than enough that Oda needs to give us, even if Caesar wakes up 2 seconds later.

and No, Logia's cannot be touched even when unconscious.
Enel being attacked while Sleeping.

[akagami7]

Fixed it for you

thanks, that was a typo, sorry.

Your interpretation is based on events that will happen after they have captured him.
My interpretation is based on what they are currently involved in at the exact moment.

Your interpretation is further and unnecessarily speculating something that is a issue which luffy Will have in the future.
My interpretation is that he is speaking about the issue based on the exact moment of Caesar capture, which is exactly what is given to us.

Would the meaning of what luffy said change if it was said when caesar wasn't unconscious? (besides the fact that luffy would be behaving in a arrogant way).
If your answer is yes then we'll have to disagree.

[AppleSauce]

Would the meaning of what luffy said change if it was said when caesar wasn't unconscious? (besides the fact that luffy would be behaving in a arrogant way).
If your answer is yes then we'll have to disagree.

No, It wouldn't change. Conscious or unconscious there is no way to make contact with a Logia except with 5 cases; Haki, Seastone, Weakness, Blackbeard, and IF the Ability user allows it. (Kuzan, Caribou)

[Juvar]

No, It wouldn't change. Conscious or unconscious there is no way to make contact with a Logia except with 5 cases; Haki, Seastone, Weakness, Blackbeard, and IF the Ability user allows it. (Kuzan, Caribou)

Oh not this discussion again. You're still wrong man.